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Frieza and Android 17 upgrade (Staff Only)
- Thread starter Aeyu
- Start date
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- Tags
- android 17 dragon ball frieza
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Also if we are to rely so heavily on statements we get shit like Kefla only being Universal as a Super Saiyan 2, and Final Form Freeza being 5-B.
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You know what? I have a brilliant idea. I'm going to just back away and let you guys bark like dogs and bite anyone who tries to fill your food bowl with something else. I don't mind a competitive take on debating, but this is ridiculous. I made my point, I don't consider it objective by any means. It's just my opinion.
Rice, Aeyu, if you still want to tread that shallow water, please continue.
Rice, Aeyu, if you still want to tread that shallow water, please continue.
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Well, 17 being exhausted and panting debunks the Infinite Stamina. Downgrade approaching.
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Matthew and Kepekley23 have some good points, but this is supposed to be a polite wiki that works out solutions via collaboration, not overly competitive hostility. Again, can everybody please cool down, and not take this so seriously?
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Lol since when does nobody accept infinite energy androids? We just had a revision not too long ago where energy levels of all androids were discussed and revived. Androids 17 + 18 both stated they have infinite energy multiple times in this arc, multiple times in DBZ, and even Toppo himself says 17's energy is inexhaustible. Where's this headcanon coming from?
Also Goku is Low 2-C across all forms, so you're saying Frieza and 17 are both weaker than base Goku? Inb4 Goku is 3-A across all forms except for UI.
Have we seen Jiren use flame ki other than when he's at full power or past his limits? No.
"Even all of us together might not be able to beat him"
"An amazing amount of energy is gathering in Jiren"
"He's finally gotten over his issues"
His spirit was broken since UI Goku demolished him.
Also Goku is Low 2-C across all forms, so you're saying Frieza and 17 are both weaker than base Goku? Inb4 Goku is 3-A across all forms except for UI.
Have we seen Jiren use flame ki other than when he's at full power or past his limits? No.
"Even all of us together might not be able to beat him"
"An amazing amount of energy is gathering in Jiren"
"He's finally gotten over his issues"
His spirit was broken since UI Goku demolished him.
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Except he powers up massively right after his "weakening".
And proceeded to get matched by a Base Freeza who would still get destroyed by GoD Toppo in a fight, even with Golden form.
And proceeded to get matched by a Base Freeza who would still get destroyed by GoD Toppo in a fight, even with Golden form.
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I already addressed this argument. But I'll draw it this time:Aeyu said:
This is Nappa. He is powering up to full strength. Look at the devastating aura that surrounds him, the massive surge of power.
Meanwhile...
This is Jiren. Look at the complete lack of an aura, the lack of a visible burning of Ki. What a weak guy.
You probably realized the fallacy...
In Dragon Ball, a visible Aura of Ki does not prove you are stronger than people without Aura.
Instead, a Ki Aura simply signifies that you are relying on your maximum available Ki, to the point where it is visible and leaving your body. This is actually a disadvantage, as it signifies that you are rapidly burning energy and wasting it to the environment.
This is why Goku and Gohan mastered their Super Saiyan state, to avoid wasting Ki. And lo and behold, they stopped having an ever-burning aura like all Super Saiyans had before, even though they were much stronger due to the 1 year of training:
Jiren having an aura on this last episode does not prove he is stronger than the Jiren who fought UI Goku. It just proves that he is so wasted and depleted that he needs to use every inch of his still-remaining power to fight friggin wounded Freeza and 17.
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@UMR
"Also Goku is Low 2-C across all forms, so you're saying Frieza and 17 are both weaker than base Goku? Inb4 Goku is 3-A across all forms except for UI."
False. He is 3-A until Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20. Which fought Jiren alongside Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.
"Have we seen Jiren use flame ki other than when he's at full power or past his limits? No."
See above
"Also Goku is Low 2-C across all forms, so you're saying Frieza and 17 are both weaker than base Goku? Inb4 Goku is 3-A across all forms except for UI."
False. He is 3-A until Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20. Which fought Jiren alongside Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.
"Have we seen Jiren use flame ki other than when he's at full power or past his limits? No."
See above
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While I am neutral here (I like really don't care honestly), I am leaning more towards Sera and Aeyu's side. All I ask is that every keeps a cool head.
You gu6s are too busy arguing and trying to debunk each other without cooperaring to find a reasonable solution.
You gu6s are too busy arguing and trying to debunk each other without cooperaring to find a reasonable solution.
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17's Infinite Stamina means that he can use his full-power all the time. It is self-sustaining. But if his body is damaged he won't be able to use all of it. Him panting and struggling is evidence.
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The panting, visible exhaustion and struggling debunks that.
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This.Matthew Schroeder said:
Jiren's power-up was nothing more than him using all of his energy against Freeza and 17.
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Didn't we give At least 3-A for Hit? I could maybe see that for Frieza and 17.
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I'm neutral on this.
While I would love Frieza to be Low 2-C (17 as well), they aren't depicted at that level. Now I didn't watch the episode but If they broke their limits I'm fine with the upgrade but it appears that Jiren was weaker (At least from what I'm reading in this thread).
I would be open to a 3-A, Possible Low 2-C (After breaking his limits [insert 17 or Frieza] was capable of fighting Jiren but it's unknown how weak Jiren was at this point.
Given Jiren was weaker but we don't know by how much and they broke their limits.
While I would love Frieza to be Low 2-C (17 as well), they aren't depicted at that level. Now I didn't watch the episode but If they broke their limits I'm fine with the upgrade but it appears that Jiren was weaker (At least from what I'm reading in this thread).
I would be open to a 3-A, Possible Low 2-C (After breaking his limits [insert 17 or Frieza] was capable of fighting Jiren but it's unknown how weak Jiren was at this point.
Given Jiren was weaker but we don't know by how much and they broke their limits.
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Anyway, reposting an 18 thing I said before:
Stuff with 18:
Stuff with 18:
- Portrayed as slightly superior but roughly comparable to Krillin twice
- Was getting blitzed by a Katopesla who was x4,000 times slower than a Katopesla who a casual Base Vegeta blitzed, and who a casual Base Vegeta also stomped when his strength was amped by x4,000
- Got rescued from Katopesla by a casual 17 who blitzed Katopesla and beat him up
- Got rescued by 17 again when Kefla was powering up, she was sent flying and would have dropped out of the arena
- Only matched Ribrianne in a scene that was about how her love for Krillin was purer and more powerful than the "love" Ribrianne's fans had for her, a love that was outright amping Ribrianne.
- So it is likely that 18 was amped as well
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"At least 3-A" is fine by me.
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Episode 127 I believe. Jiren congratulates U7 on beating Toppo, he says "now feast your eyes on this". Powers up, releases his flame ki for the first time (when his standard is simply red.)
Narrator: "In the fray, Jiren, having become the final warrior, unleashes his hidden power."
Seems to me that Jiren's fire ki (which has like 4 auras) = Jiren using his hidden power. And the narrator stated that before he wielded a new aura. The only time we see new auras are in transformations, or power boosts like kaioken.
"False. He is 3-A until Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20. Which fought Jiren alongside Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta."
Yet SSB Goku without kaioken and SSB Vegeta could fight Jiren, Goku getting more powerful across all forms each time he achieved UI, Vegeta scaling through all of Goku's level of progress by breaking his limits, both of them having numerous scenes taking multiple hits from Jiren in base, etc.
"See above"
Why are you winking at me, need some eye drops?
Narrator: "In the fray, Jiren, having become the final warrior, unleashes his hidden power."
Seems to me that Jiren's fire ki (which has like 4 auras) = Jiren using his hidden power. And the narrator stated that before he wielded a new aura. The only time we see new auras are in transformations, or power boosts like kaioken.
"False. He is 3-A until Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken x20. Which fought Jiren alongside Mastered Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta."
Yet SSB Goku without kaioken and SSB Vegeta could fight Jiren, Goku getting more powerful across all forms each time he achieved UI, Vegeta scaling through all of Goku's level of progress by breaking his limits, both of them having numerous scenes taking multiple hits from Jiren in base, etc.
"See above
"Why are you winking at me, need some eye drops?
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You are still arguing by completely ignoring the fact that Aura =/= Level of power. It signifies how much power is being used out of your available "stock".
SSB Goku fought a super-suppressed Jiren that was 3-A. This is exactly the type of backwards scaling that I have criticized. Jiren was only Low 2-C when he started fighting UI, not before.
This is the problem that got us here, the idea that every single instance of Jiren is Low 2-C.
SSB Goku fought a super-suppressed Jiren that was 3-A. This is exactly the type of backwards scaling that I have criticized. Jiren was only Low 2-C when he started fighting UI, not before.
This is the problem that got us here, the idea that every single instance of Jiren is Low 2-C.
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I suppose that LordGriffin's solution could be an acceptable compromise, but I really don't like the aggressive manner that some members have behaved in here.
Again, this is supposed to be a friendly, well-behaved entertainment wiki, not a rude and hostile gloating battleboard forum.
We have to make an effort to behave accordingly, or people will feel discouraged to visit and help out.
Again, this is supposed to be a friendly, well-behaved entertainment wiki, not a rude and hostile gloating battleboard forum.
We have to make an effort to behave accordingly, or people will feel discouraged to visit and help out.
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Give them At least 3-A with a Key titled "Tournament of Power (Post Limit-Breaking)".
Justification is fighting a tired and weakened Jiren.
Done.
Justification is fighting a tired and weakened Jiren.
Done.
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Showing ki just means that the character is using all of his existing power. It's simply a sign of powering up. It is not consistent as Goku had SSB ki against Krillin while he was still holding back massively.
Jiren unleashing his ki just means he powered up and was using all of his existing power in that moment. It doesn't mean it was his max power. Just like how ssj2 Gohan when he beat Cell was using all of his power available at that moment but was still at less than half of his max.
Jiren unleashing his ki just means he powered up and was using all of his existing power in that moment. It doesn't mean it was his max power. Just like how ssj2 Gohan when he beat Cell was using all of his power available at that moment but was still at less than half of his max.
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There is no proof Jiren was Low 2-C against SSJB Goku. If he is, that needs to go too.
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He was only Low 2-C when he fought the 1st UI that did nothing to him? Not even the time when he blinked the spirit bomb out of existence? IIRC, Whis compared SSJ Kefla to that very energy who was fighting UI 2 Goku, and she said his attacks were weak.
"You are still arguing by completely ignoring the fact that Aura =/= Level of power. It signifies how much power is being used out of your available "stock"."
You're ignoring the question, when has anybody changed their aura just by accessing their full storage of ki, other than a transformation, or as a result of a power boosting technique?
"You are still arguing by completely ignoring the fact that Aura =/= Level of power. It signifies how much power is being used out of your available "stock"."
You're ignoring the question, when has anybody changed their aura just by accessing their full storage of ki, other than a transformation, or as a result of a power boosting technique?
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That seems fine, but again, you really have to make an effort to not behave like the Narutoforums members when you visit here. You risk to scare valuable staff members away from the wiki if you treat them too badly.Matthew Schroeder said:
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@Antvasima
Since when did I do anything wrong? It is becoming increasingly annoying for you to bring up Narutoforums as a boogeyman whenever I ain't super happy in a thread.
I am not being aggressive towards people. I am just annoyed at the repetitive nature of this thread. Specially since I went to sleep when the last thread was at #100 posts, before it went to shit.
@UMR
"He was only Low 2-C when he fought the 1st UI that did nothing to him? "
Yes. He was 3-A up until them. Goku broke his Limit and fought a Jiren who had to try for the first time as Ultra Instinct.
Since when did I do anything wrong? It is becoming increasingly annoying for you to bring up Narutoforums as a boogeyman whenever I ain't super happy in a thread.
I am not being aggressive towards people. I am just annoyed at the repetitive nature of this thread. Specially since I went to sleep when the last thread was at #100 posts, before it went to shit.
@UMR
"He was only Low 2-C when he fought the 1st UI that did nothing to him? "
Yes. He was 3-A up until them. Goku broke his Limit and fought a Jiren who had to try for the first time as Ultra Instinct.
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His fight with UI is why he is Low 2-C to begin with. The Spirit Bomb was composed of 3-A energy. It was explicitly a 3-A attack.
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Frankness is not rudeness.
These are the same people who defended Matt's tone in the DMC shitstorm. Why react differently to the exact same tone directed at DBS?
These are the same people who defended Matt's tone in the DMC shitstorm. Why react differently to the exact same tone directed at DBS?
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How is he 3-A up until he fights UI, when Shin states that he's stronger than anyone they've ever faced while they were still having the spirit bomb struggle? That is the statement we give Low 2-C from anyway.
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he is maybe Low 2-C during that, but literally nobody Pre-UI scales to the Kaioken x20 Super Saiyan Blue Genki Dama. Only UI Goku and stronger peeps scale to Low 2-C.
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@Matthew
I think that they are a bad influence on you, since visiting there too much makes it harder for you to switch back to a friendly and respectful tone in this wiki. Mocking comments like "you lose" and "" are disrespectful. We need to all try to get along in order to collaborate well, and get anything done.
I mean, I had to handle a very serious issue yesterday, so I am not in a good mood, but then it was improved a lot from watching the Dragon Ball ending, just to have some of our members get hostile towards each other about it afterwards. It isn't supposed to be all that serious, comparatively speaking.
I think that they are a bad influence on you, since visiting there too much makes it harder for you to switch back to a friendly and respectful tone in this wiki. Mocking comments like "you lose" and "
" are disrespectful. We need to all try to get along in order to collaborate well, and get anything done.I mean, I had to handle a very serious issue yesterday, so I am not in a good mood, but then it was improved a lot from watching the Dragon Ball ending, just to have some of our members get hostile towards each other about it afterwards. It isn't supposed to be all that serious, comparatively speaking.
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Jiren's Low 2-C doesn't scale to Normal SSJB Goku. He was getting destroyed.
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@Antvasima
Stuff like winky faces are just there to add wit and humor to comments. It isn't mean-spirited, just cheeky at its worse.
Other users and Staff Members use them as well, a lot in fact, and you don't care at all when they do it. You just fixate on my behavior. It is frankly annoying. I would rather not be given special focus. We should treat everyone unbiasedly.
Stuff like winky faces are just there to add wit and humor to comments. It isn't mean-spirited, just cheeky at its worse.
Other users and Staff Members use them as well, a lot in fact, and you don't care at all when they do it. You just fixate on my behavior. It is frankly annoying. I would rather not be given special focus. We should treat everyone unbiasedly.
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