Frieza and Android 17 upgrade (Staff Only)

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Give them At least 3-A with a Key titled "Tournament of Power (Post Limit-Breaking)".
Justification is fighting a tired and weakened Jiren.

Done.

Can we do this and be done with it?

 

[Aeyu]

I still think we should address the possibly, but I'm all for ending this prolonged debate. Bad faith among the staff is never a productive or positive thing.

 

[Antvasima]

Well, if even Sera and Aeyu think that you are steamrolling over them, you probably have to try to tone things down a bit.

 

[Kepekley23]

Just apply "At least 3-A" and get the middle ground over with.

Although I frown when we throw bones at an upgrade, I won't go against this.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I agree. I said I was sorry and offered to edit my post to them.

 

[Antvasima]

As for other staff members, I haven't noticed it as much from them, but it isn't like I am deliberately trying to single you out.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Okay. That is good. Thank you for being reasonable.

 

[Stryk3r1337]

Not a staff member, but I contributed to this thread before via Antvasima and I think I have something for a middle ground.

I think a good middle ground is "Atleast 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" As LordGriffin said before, it is a good middle ground.

Going by the wiki's defintion of "Possibly"

"Should be used to list a hypothetical statistic for a character, but inconclusive due to lack of feats or viable power-scaling. Probability of said hypothetical statistic should also be indeterminate."

Which I think Kep and Matt are trying to say here.

 

[AKM sama]

*So Jiren was quite beaten up badly in the start of this episode. He obviously wasn't at his max as pointed out by Freeza himself.

• Golden Frieza and Android 17, two 3-A's who also weren't at their max, were fighting evenly with him, injured him and he got more weakened. Frieza was horribly beaten up previously and 17 self destructed many times and clearly weren't at their max.

• Toppo's pep talk gave a temporary emotional boost to Jiren and he unleased an attack which knocked the gold out of Frieza, but him and 17 were still holding their own (at the expense of Freeza's gold). Then they, along with a tired base Goku who could barely go ssj1 (which makes three 3-A's), overpowered Jiren's attack.

• Jiren was so weakened at this point that base Goku and base Frieza were able to fight evenly with him. Android 17 was also portrayed as being on the same level as base Goku and base Freeza as his blasts sometimes hurt Jiren and sometimes didn't.

Going by all of that, it is far more reasonable to conclude that Jiren was so weakened along with the rest that all of them were at some level of 3-A, rather than assuming that a tired base Goku, tired Freeza and weakened 17 became Low 2-C.

Sorry for posting this in a staff only thread.

Given these reasons, I think Jiren being weakened/3-A in the fight is the most logical conclusion. It fits well with how the fight went down.

I don't think "At least" rating is needed.

However if SSB Goku is Low 2-C and SSB Vegeta is contending evenly with him after that time skip or whatever that was in the end, then I think Vegeta should be Low 2-C. However one could say it was a brief sparring and not enough evidence. I am just putting it out there.

Also, since all staff members are seeing this: Goku's keys need to be more organised. "Pre ToP" and "Post ToP" does not make sense if he is Low 2-C only in some of his forms "Post ToP". Also his UI abilities also don't make sense with "Post ToP" key.

Sorry again. I am out now.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Stuff with 18:

• Portrayed as slightly superior but roughly comparable to Krillin twice
• Was getting blitzed by a Katopesla who was x4,000 times slower than a Katopesla who a casual Base Vegeta blitzed, and who a casual Base Vegeta also stomped when his strength was amped by x4,000
• Got rescued from Katopesla by a casual 17 who blitzed Katopesla and beat him up
• Got rescued by 17 again when Kefla was powering up, she was sent flying and would have dropped out of the arena
• Only matched Ribrianne in a scene that was about how her love for Krillin was purer and more powerful than the "love" Ribrianne's fans had for her, a love that was outright amping Ribrianne.
• So it is likely that 18 was amped as well

Can we downgrade her? This is not controversial and most people agree to it.

What about this? Nobody was against it in the other thread

 

[Antvasima]

I still think we should address the possibly, but I'm all for ending this prolonged debate. Bad faith among the staff is never a productive or positive thing.

Agreed.

 

[Aeyu]

I personally think "At least 3-A, possibly higher" or "At least 3-A, possibly Low 2-C" would work better, but that's my subjective view based on OCD.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@AKM

I plan on revising Goku's profile. The AP justification is a clusterfuck. He needs several Keys.

 

[Golden_Void]

he is maybe Low 2-C during that, but literally nobody Pre-UI scales to the Kaioken x20 Super Saiyan Blue Genki Dama. Only UI Goku and stronger peeps scale to Low 2-C.

Is this implying Jiren got stronger to counter the spirit bomb?

 

[Kepekley23]

"At least 3-A" is fine as it is.

 

[KingPin0422]

As the OP of the previous thread, I'd like to reiterate a few points I made before that went completely unnoticed:

• A lot of people here (not just the opposition) are ignoring the fact that not taking damage is actually a very good feat, at least for durability. If I'm a 7-B and I take hits from a 7-A, yet they are unable to put me out of the fight, then I would scale. Even more so if I actually damaged them. 17 tanked hits from GoD Toppo, and also took a lot of punishment from Jiren. If 17 truly was fodder, he would simply be knocked out by a slap and be done with.
• Goku literally says they all went beyond their limits. Why should this logic only apply to Saiyans? Because "muh Zenkai"? Because "muh transformations"? Both Frieza and 17 got a lot stronger fighting tough opponents. Many people did. This is not at all unheard of in Dragon Ball as a whole. Jiren got stronger simply because he thought about his past. It's not uncommon for people to break their limits. Goku here outright says they all did.
• Lastly, a scene that I think flew under the radar was when Jiren stepped on Frieza's tail and proceeded to beat down on him, only for Frieza to telekinetically crush him between two rocks even while he's getting his ass kicked, and Jiren can be heard grunting in pain. It gets even more impressive when #17 rushes in to explode a ball of Ki on him, and afterwards Jiren is shown to be heavily damaged, with Frieza outright stating that #17 put everything into that attack.

 

[Aeyu]

I still think a base "At least 3-A" is probably less accurate than including the possibly. Hell, you could even make it "At most".

 

[Antvasima]

Has anybody modified the profiles yet?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I will include it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Added a At least 3-A key.

 

[Aeyu]

I still strongly support a "possibly higher/possibly Low 2-C/at most Low 2-C" addendum, but if my concerns are just going to continually be ignored then I have nothing further to add.

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew

Okay. Thank you.

 

[Antvasima]

I still strongly support a "possibly higher/possibly Low 2-C/at most Low 2-C" addendum, but if my concerns are just going to continually be ignored then I have nothing further to add.

Are you willing to handle this Matthew?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Aeyu

Can we discuss that you and I. I don't want more public conflict.

 

[TheJ-ManRequiem]

Just point out... Freeza also endured the ki attack which 17 almost blew up from. And 17 endured and held back . Agree with upgrade.

 

[Antvasima]

Yes. You can PM me, but I am busy with the daily backlog.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I was referring to Aeyu.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. Sorry. Head glitch. I am very tired.

 

[PaChi2]

I still think a base "At least 3-A" is probably less accurate than including the possibly. Hell, you could even make it "At most".

^

 

[Xantospoc]

I mean, Frieza still has a High 3-A feat from surviving Toppo Hakai's sphere which warped the world of void as a whole (although heavily damaged)

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That wasn't considered High 3-A.

 

[AKM sama]

That wasn't considered High 3-A.

Why not?

 

[Xantospoc]

Base Goku wasn't considered 3-A for years either

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

Do we know that all of he world of void was affected, or just that portion we can see?

 

[Dragonmasterxyz]

They said the entire World of Void was shaking @Cal.

 

[The_real_cal_howard]

I meant Toppo's feat, not Goku and Jiren's.

 

[Xantospoc]

1) Casual Jiren and first UI Goku, weaker characters than God of , have shaken the World of Void of Void.

2) Mostly because we haven't seen parts of the World of Void remaining unchanged not even when the Super Dragonball and Super Shenron showed up

The critics were more for being an outlier (even though there are no low ends to speak of) and that Toppo was not trying to kill Frieza (which while legit, doesn't change the fact he warped the entire dimension)

 

[Kepekley23]

I personally disagree with "Possibly Low 2-C" for Freeza or 17.

 

[BlackeJan]

What about Base Goku Post Kefla fight? would his base form change since his SSBKKx20 was inputed to be stronger the 1st UI?

Base Goku (ep. 131) should also be High 3-A since he was also helping Frieza fighting Jiren

 

[Antvasima]

I was asked to post the following by a temporarily banned member:

Oh the dbs one, well for the record I do agree with aeyu. I disagree with at least 3-A, as well as high 3-A, they have enough feats to prove they are indeed low 2-C now. You can say outlier, but when it becomes consistent it stops becoming an outlier. It is odd that only saiyans are getting upgrades for breaking their limits. I stated before in my CRT that 17 clearly broke his limits, everyone wrote it off as headcanon but goku confirms this. If y'all fear everyone else scaling, then y'all should probably only use the argument they broke their limits the same way goku, vegata, toppo, jiren had. then no one would scale. Jiren got stronger simply by thinking about his pass, both 17 and Frieza couldn't afford to lose, they had to get stronger and they broke their limits as well.

Also 17 was unable to be taken out of the fight by both toppo and jiren. Not taking damage is a good feat of durability. The arguments jiren is 3-A now so rather silly. Jiren was always low 2-C, the current jiren right now is still stronger than the one where he shook the world of the void. As for key, I guess post ToP, as 17 clearly got stronger. No one bat an eye when vegeta got stomped by GoD toppo, but when he thought about his family he started stomping toppo instead. Vegeta as we know didn't get any stronger after he used ultra blue on jiren, yet he clearly got stronger simply because his family was on the line. It's the same for 17 and Frieza.

Frieza.. well he doesn't wanna be erased, and he took a beating from toppo and jiren? Makes sense he work breaks his limits. Also why are we arguing outlier for 2 chars that clearly shown they have the best potential in the series? RoF and 17 got ssb level in 10 years. only these two have low 2-C feats, and they have the best potential.