Frieza and Android 17 upgrade (Staff Only)

[The_Everlasting]

"invincible power down to a far lower level" =/= Not Low 2-C.

As Sera said, even an absolutely insanely suppressed Jiren is Low 2-C.

 

[Kaltias]

And then Jiren power ups and both Frieza and 17 are terrified and have to put all their effort into defending themselves?

The fact that he received a boost is obvious

 

[Sera_EX]

To quote Aeyu

"Freeza didn't think Jiren was a threat again until he powered up again, which prompted Jiren to power up so hard that Freeza lost his Golden form, which is when right after Goku mentioned that all of them had broken their limits."

 

[Kepekley23]

After the end of H2, Freeza reiterates once again. An once invicible guy, is now very fragile.

The entire point is that they can contend with Jiren only when he is weakened. Otherwise, they get destroyed, and even if they didn't, it'd be an outlier.

Jiren then power-ups and destroys them agai.

Nobody has proven Jiren was still Low 2-C. Occam's Razor tells me that Jiren having been reduced to 3-A before his power up is FAR more in line with 17 and Freeza's other feats.

 

[Golden_Void]

Jiren beat Goku within an inch of his life, Goku got healed by Frieza, and still went on to fight Kale and Caulifla.

Since when did being wounded in this arc mean losing 99.9% of your power? That's only the case if you get trashed like Jiren was beating on base Vegeta with 0 stamina. The fact Jiren had even more energy in the tank which shocked everyone by its force at least scales to every other time Jiren has flex and made people guard themselves, which is every other time.

 

[Sera_EX]

False. Because Jiren is Low 2-C to begin with via scaling to Merged Zamasu + a feat and character reactions. So no, that doesn't work.

 

[Sera_EX]

Jiren is never 3-A in the Tournament of Power. To suggest so is to go back on scaling you previously agreed with.

 

[Kepekley23]

Let me get this straight.

Do you think Base Freeza is Low 2-C?

 

[Antvasima]

Look, from what I can recall, it seems like almost everybody in this thread agree with Aeyu. Can't the others simply live with that they got outvoted for once? It has happened to me quite frequently, and it isn't that big of a deal.

 

[Kepekley23]

Except Low 2-C Freeza and 17 completely contradicts all their other feats, and the one who fought powered up Jiren was BASE Freeza. Not Golden Freeza. The same Freeza that has literally nothing suggesting he wouldn't still get absolutely destroyed by GoD Toppo even in his Golden form.

Jiren being 3-A while vastly weakened, like stated by Toppo, Freeza and 17 & the plot of the episode is far more likely. Right after the power up, Freeza started to get destroyed again.

Low 2-C Base Freeza is worse than Low 2-C Golden Freeza via standing up from GoD Toppo's massive beating.

 

[Sera_EX]

@Kepekley

This isn't about what I "think".

@Ant

Apparently more people disagreed. I'm not seeing that as I go through the previous thread, but that's what was stated.

 

[Kepekley23]

There are several people who agree with Matt and I.

 

[Kepekley23]

Kukui, Dark, Komi, JS, and Ponciana all agree with Matt and I. So it's not "nobody".

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Really? Well, I only participated in the thread towards the end, and there more people seemed to agree with Aeyu, but I may misremember.

Since most of the raised issues had been solved, and the thread was very long, and I was tired of the many replies, I thought that it would be better to focus on the remaining topic in a staff discusssion.

@All

Can anybody make a list of the staff members who agree with each suggestion?

@Kepekley

I do not think that it makes much sense either, but it still happened, despite lack of logic, and Unite My Rice illustrated that it does not seem to be an outlier.

 

[Sera_EX]

Jiren > SSB Goku/Vegeta post zenkai >= GoD Toppo > Merged Zamasu. The GoDs are somewhere in there as well.

Jiren isn't even baseline Low 2-C, so being weakened does not drop his tier, and if Jiren at this point is supposedly 3-A, how is it an outlier that two 3-As can fight him? Are we backsliding now?

 

[Kepekley23]

"LOL fiction doesn't make any sense, this wiki shouldn't either" was the exact argumnt that people used to justify Low 2-C 17 before, and it was vehemently denied.

Now we're ignoring literally every single feat they have had up until then, ignoring that BASE Freeza was the one with the Jiren feat and that he has not grown ANY stronger, that there is a more logical explanation that avoids a trainwreck in the powerscaling, despite the fact we have never done this before with DBS, and shouldn't?

Sorry, but I have to be frank here. That's ridiculous.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Can we stop with this nonsense of "It happened so upgrades happen"? This is completely contrary to the purpose of this website, which is to properly analyze what is consistent.

Low 2-C 17 and Frieza aren't consistent. No upgrades are happening.

 

[Antvasima]

Just so everybody are on the same page, the reasons for our problems are that A: DBS is very inconsistent, and B: that it makes no difference between 3-A and Low 2-C, but we still have to try to make the best of the situation.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Look, from what I can recall, it seems like almost everybody in this thread agree with Aeyu. Can't the others simply live with that they got outvoted for once? It has happened to me quite frequently, and it isn't that big of a deal.

It's not a matter of being outvoted, which we aren't being. It's a matter of the people arguing for the upgrade being simply objectively wrong.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@Sera

"I have no idea why you suggest Jiren being exauhsted and injured makes him below Low 2-C when he's never shown power below that in the TOP. "

"Jiren is never 3-A in the Tournament of Power. To suggest so is to go back on scaling you previously agreed with."

He only showed a Low 2-C feat when he started to stop being suppressed against UI Goku. Until them he was only 3-A.

@UMR

"Jiren beat Goku within an inch of his life, Goku got healed by Frieza, and still went on to fight Kale and Caulifla."

Goku is a Saiyan. Got healed + Zenkai. That's the whole point. Neither 17 or Frieza have that ability. They are tired and wounded, not healed, same with Jiren.

Unless you think that current weakened 17 > Full power 17 in every episode until now, this is a massive false equivalency.

And if you do, then you believe in an outlier.

 

[Golden_Void]

Jiren isn't even baseline Low 2-C, so being weakened does not drop his tier, and if Jiren at this point is supposedly 3-A, how is it an outlier that two 3-As can fight him? Are we backsliding now?

 

[Antvasima]

@Matthew & Kepekley

Well, I suppose that I am more neutral regarding this discussion then, but I do not think that it is a clear-cut issue.

 

[Sera_EX]

"Low 2-C 17 and Frieza aren't consistent. No upgrades are happening."

Why? Because you, Kepe and few others say so? It doesn't work like that.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Just so everybody are on the same page, the reasons for our problems are that A: DBS is very inconsistent, and B: that it makes no difference between 3-A and Low 2-C, but we still have to try to make the best of the situation.

How to do both:

A) Admit that it is inconsistent, then don't upgrade based on inconsistencies. You argument seems to be "Well it makes no sense so why should we", which is ridiculous.

B) Treat it like we treat similar other nonsense feats grossly out of a character's scale without explanation: As an outlier.

Thus, no upgrades. This is the logical way to do it.

 

[Kepekley23]

> Jiren was vastly weakened according to everyone in the episode

> Gets stomped by Freeza, then powers up, stomps Golden Freeza

> Base Freeza somehow keeps up with him, alongside a 17 who barely does anything until the end

> Consistent

Doesn't work like that either, Sewa.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Because nobody has properly proved that they are Low 2-C in that fight. Nothing suggests it. And nobody has proved it isn't an outlier.

In fact, most of the people who agree seem to act like Outliers don't exist when it involves DBS.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Now we're ignoring literally every single feat they have had up until then, ignoring that BASE Freeza was the one with the Jiren feat and that he has not grown ANY stronger, that there is a more logical explanation that avoids a trainwreck in the powerscaling, despite the fact we have never done this before with DBS, and shouldn't?

This. We need to stop being so biased towards DBS. It is pathetic at this point. People made a nonsense upgrade thread less than 1 hour after the episode ended, because they thirst for upgrades and nothing else.

Do ya'll honestly think that Wounded and Tired Base Freeza is stronger than First-Time Ultra Instinct Goku? If so, you are objectively wrong and arguing in favor of nonsense Outliers. Or incapable of realizing when a character is suppressed.

 

[Sera_EX]

You cannot claim Jiren at this point is 3-A yet turn around and call this an outlier. Pick one or the other.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You cannot claim Jiren at this point is 3-A yet turn around and call this an outlier. Pick one or the other.

Yes we can.

Jiren is 3-A in this feat. Hence no upgrade.

And if he was Low 2-C, it is an outlier. Hence no upgrade either.

You lose in either instance.

 

[Antvasima]

@Sera

Well, as I mentioned earlier, DBS technically makes no difference between 3-A and Low 2-C, which is a large part of the reason for our problems here.

 

[AKM sama]

• So Jiren was quite beaten up badly in the start of this episode. He obviously wasn't at his max as pointed out by Freeza himself.

• Golden Frieza and Android 17, two 3-A's who also weren't at their max, were fighting evenly with him, injured him and he got more weakened. Frieza was horribly beaten up previously and 17 self destructed many times and clearly weren't at their max.

• Toppo's pep talk gave a temporary emotional boost to Jiren and he unleased an attack which knocked the gold out of Frieza, but him and 17 were still holding their own (at the expense of Freeza's gold). Then they, along with a tired base Goku who could barely go ssj1 (which makes three 3-A's), overpowered Jiren's attack.

• Jiren was so weakened at this point that base Goku and base Frieza were able to fight evenly with him. Android 17 was also portrayed as being on the same level as base Goku and base Freeza as his blasts sometimes hurt Jiren and sometimes didn't.

Going by all of that, it is far more reasonable to conclude that Jiren was so weakened along with the rest that all of them were at some level of 3-A, rather than assuming that a tired base Goku, tired Freeza and weakened 17 became Low 2-C.

Sorry for posting this in a staff only thread.

 

[Kepekley23]

@Sewa

If Jiren is 3-A, no upgrades.

If he is Low 2-C, an outlier because it contradicts every single other feat in the Tournament.

So yeah, we can.

 

[Golden_Void]

"He only showed a Low 2-C feat when he started to stop being suppressed against UI Goku. Until them he was only 3-A."

So we're disregarding Jiren being compared to IZ while suppressed, and instead going by feats? That's pretty much the only reason the cast is Low 2-C and not High 3-A.

"Goku is a Saiyan. Got healed + Zenkai. That's the whole point. Neither 17 or Frieza have that ability. They are tired and wounded, not healed, same with Jiren.

Unless you think that current weakened 17 > Full power 17 in every episode until now, this is a massive false equivalency."

Frieza can be beaten and low on stamina, but he can also fight people with only half a body left. 17 has infinite energy and stamina, but he's just wounded.

 

[Antvasima]

Also, can we all please cool down, and not get so worked up about a fictional story that I thought was very uplifting and entertaining?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

That isn't a problem, Ant, Christ. That is true for 99% of fiction and it ain't a problem.

This is how to do it:

Treat it exactly like we treat other humongously out of scale feats a character does without any explanation: As an outlier

Imagine this argument being applied in other fictions. "Well, Super Fighting Ultra doesn't differenciate between High 6-A and 5-B, which is a large part of our problem." "Well, Magical Girl Cutie Super doesn't differenciate between 4-A and 3-C, which is a problem".

No it isn't a problem. It only becomes a problem when people vehemently refuse to call a Spade a Spade and hide behind false equivalencies and fallacies.

 

[Sera_EX]

>You lose

Word choice, love... This isn't freaking politics, no need for a "Right Wing/Left Wing" mentality.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

@UMR

You are the one disregarding feats. The fact that Base Freeza can fight this Jiren is proof that he is 3-A.

17 doesn't have Infinite Energy or Stamina. He can be exhausted, tired, and depleted, as he is in this episode. Nobody accepts the Infinite Energy statement, don't bring it up here.

You once again failed to prove that Jiren is Low 2-C in this episode, instead using false equivalencies.

 

[Antvasima]

AKM sama does make a good point, and Matthew has one as well.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

>You lose
Word choice, love... This isn't freaking politics, no need for a "Right Wing/Left Wing" mentality.

I can edit the post if you want, but can you address the argument rather than the delivery?

 

[Kepekley23]

Also, the "Jiren can't be any lower than Low 2-C" argument is flawed since it ignores that other Low 2-Cs have suppressed themselves down to 3-A before. There is literally no reason for an extremely weakened Jiren not to be able to go down a tier.

The actual feats in the tournament make FAR more sense if you assume Jiren is 3-A here. Occam's Razor, my dudes.