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Frieza and Android 17 upgrade (Staff Only)
- Thread starter Aeyu
- Start date
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- Tags
- android 17 dragon ball frieza
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Yes, this is why Toppo the Universe 11 Saiyan is Low 2-C. And Vegeta got a new form, my dudette.Sera Loveheart said:
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Can someone tell me what changed from the last time this was debunked, other than 17 being weaker than before due to him barely surviving, and Freeza being worn out?
Literally nothing.
Literally nothing.
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The justification is also a problem, we can't put a key as Low 2-C for them as End of Tournament of Power for one or two episodes and put they broke their limits which allowed them to fight with Jire as a justification because its a bad one for trying to justify many asspulls in the series since they are not saiyans that gets stronger through a Zenkai boost nor the series is an RPG where characters gets stronger by fighting or defeating an opponent.
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We still would, because they have no Low 2-C feat, new form or not.PaChi2 said:
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Except Limit Breaking is a very legitimate power up in DBS
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Except current Frieza and 17 are even more worn out than before, and same with Jiren. It is circular scaling at this point.JustSomeWeirdo said:
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I don't know but the Strawman Fallacy is pretty ridiculous. Please debate with actual arguments and not accusations.
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After skimming the old thread and reading through this one, I have to agree with Aeyu and Sera on this. They make solid arguments
I'm fine with Low 2-C 17 and Frieza post-Limit Breaks. Nothing before, obviously.
I'm fine with Low 2-C 17 and Frieza post-Limit Breaks. Nothing before, obviously.
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I am sorry, Darkanine, but the Jiren they fight isn't Low 2-C. They have made no arguments as to why he is.
Jiren is worn out, wounded, and nearly out of gas, and both 17 and Frieza are in worse shape than before. Neither of them are in the Tier 2 level of power.
Jiren is worn out, wounded, and nearly out of gas, and both 17 and Frieza are in worse shape than before. Neither of them are in the Tier 2 level of power.
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Who is Strawmaning? What accusations? May I remind you that you accused Aeyu of hiding outliers? Vegeta didn't have a Low 2-C feat until he beat Toppo but he was still upgraded. That's going against things previously agreed with in regards to another character.
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Aeyu said:
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I didn't accuse, I state a tactic that is very much used. The Golden Mean Fallacy, which is used to hide outliers by picking up an arbitrary middle-ground.Sera Loveheart said:
The strawman fallacy is accusing Kep and I of only being against due to a lack of transformations.
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Jiren's Aura is just a demonstration that he is actually putting some effort. If a fighter isn't putting all his effort, he would have a Ki Aura. If he is, he will have.PaChi2 said:
It no way proves that Warrior with Aura > Warrior without Aura, unless you think that Classic Dragon Ball people are above Pre Episode 110 Jiren.
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Jiren was massively exhased. There's nothing to suggest he is Low 2-C.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.
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Because the previous thread was closed and the majority silenced. Isn't Staff Only fun?
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That doesn't suggest Jiren was anywhere above 3-A at the time. Gohan would have said the exact same thing with Anilaza.
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Everytime someone's power in the Tournament is praised they are Low 2-C now?
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- Thread starter
- #107
To be fair, once again, there were many on both sides of the fence.
And @Kaltias, that is indeed what happened. Vegeta also mentioned that Jiren had "gotten over his issues". Freeza didn't think Jiren was a threat again until he powered up again, which prompted Jiren to power up so hard that Freeza lost his Golden form, which is when right after Goku mentioned that all of them had broken their limits.
And @Kaltias, that is indeed what happened. Vegeta also mentioned that Jiren had "gotten over his issues". Freeza didn't think Jiren was a threat again until he powered up again, which prompted Jiren to power up so hard that Freeza lost his Golden form, which is when right after Goku mentioned that all of them had broken their limits.
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Matthew Schroeder said:
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It's literally the plot point.
Jiren is harshly wounded and out of energy, which is why people like 17 and Freeza even matter anymore. Followed by vague "You have broken your limits" hero talk after Jiren powers-up.
It's literally why they can fight him. He is wounded and extremely exhausted. He has been brought down to a manageable level.
I still don't know why you guys are vouching for this.
Jiren is harshly wounded and out of energy, which is why people like 17 and Freeza even matter anymore. Followed by vague "You have broken your limits" hero talk after Jiren powers-up.
It's literally why they can fight him. He is wounded and extremely exhausted. He has been brought down to a manageable level.
I still don't know why you guys are vouching for this.
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- Thread starter
- #113
I'll say something which you'll try to crawl all over, but trying to find a middle ground isn't always "golden mean fallacy". It's trying to reconcile two valid viewpoints. Otherwise I can't see this thread ending with anything but bitterness from whichever side "loses".
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Let's see.
17 who trained presumably alone while fighting off poachers and protecting animals went from weaker than second form Cell to holding back against a restrained SSB Goku and shielding against his kamehameha entirely.
Frieza who trained for (4?) months with fodder and went from Namek level to SSB.
Both of which beat down a full powered Toppo together with ki attacks, even though 17 was barely hanging on to his ki clash with Toppo instead of getting outright blasted. Think SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell before Goku gave him that pep talk. Same circumstances.
17 pushed through Anilaza's ki beam which the top 5 members of U7 were struggling against, and damaged it's energy reactor.
17, Goku and Vegeta both fought FP Jiren off at once, and he took a direct kick and ki blast. He then manages to damage Jiren from behind where he couldn't guard against it, confirmed by U11 Kaioshin. He tells Goku he's barely ok, and Goku says he's impressive.
17 uses all his power to destroy Jiren's blast, while multi-layer shielding Goku and Vegeta to survive the knockback.
17 then goes up against Beefcake 3000 Jiren and says "this time, it's really going to hurt", implying he's using more power than last time, then when Jiren tried to prevent the attack 17 throws a shield around them, making them both take the whole blast. Jiren's entire universe was shocked at the beating he took.
Then 17 and Frieza attempted to shield against Jiren when he found his resolve, but their shield broke, then base Goku came to help, and the three of them destroyed Jiren's energy wave, and base Goku + base Frieza defeated him.
Frieza seems more outlierish in the sense that his only difficult solo opponent was Toppo. Dyspo was just fast, and Anilaza was a team effort. Everyone else was fodder to him, so he put in less work than 17, who consistently played a part in most top-tier battles.
17 who trained presumably alone while fighting off poachers and protecting animals went from weaker than second form Cell to holding back against a restrained SSB Goku and shielding against his kamehameha entirely.
Frieza who trained for (4?) months with fodder and went from Namek level to SSB.
Both of which beat down a full powered Toppo together with ki attacks, even though 17 was barely hanging on to his ki clash with Toppo instead of getting outright blasted. Think SSJ2 Gohan vs Perfect Cell before Goku gave him that pep talk. Same circumstances.
17 pushed through Anilaza's ki beam which the top 5 members of U7 were struggling against, and damaged it's energy reactor.
17, Goku and Vegeta both fought FP Jiren off at once, and he took a direct kick and ki blast. He then manages to damage Jiren from behind where he couldn't guard against it, confirmed by U11 Kaioshin. He tells Goku he's barely ok, and Goku says he's impressive.
17 uses all his power to destroy Jiren's blast, while multi-layer shielding Goku and Vegeta to survive the knockback.
17 then goes up against Beefcake 3000 Jiren and says "this time, it's really going to hurt", implying he's using more power than last time, then when Jiren tried to prevent the attack 17 throws a shield around them, making them both take the whole blast. Jiren's entire universe was shocked at the beating he took.
Then 17 and Frieza attempted to shield against Jiren when he found his resolve, but their shield broke, then base Goku came to help, and the three of them destroyed Jiren's energy wave, and base Goku + base Frieza defeated him.
Frieza seems more outlierish in the sense that his only difficult solo opponent was Toppo. Dyspo was just fast, and Anilaza was a team effort. Everyone else was fodder to him, so he put in less work than 17, who consistently played a part in most top-tier battles.
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I have no idea why you suggest Jiren being exauhsted and injured makes him below Low 2-C when he's never shown power below that in the TOP. Even when ridiculously restricted he has a Low 2-C feat. How does being exauhsted and injured lower your tier when your lowest feat is Universal+?
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I frankly agree with the upgrades.
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This.Sera Loveheart said:
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I agree with Aeyu, Sera, and Darkanine.
I also agree with Sera and Raven about that we should make an effort to maintain a good tone towards each other.
Anyway, I didn't close the old thread to silence the majority, but because it was very long, and received too many replies too fast. I thought that this would be a more organised way of doing things, not that some of the participants would get upset with each other.
Also, from what I remember of the old thread, more non-staff members agreed with Aeyu.
I also agree with Sera and Raven about that we should make an effort to maintain a good tone towards each other.
Anyway, I didn't close the old thread to silence the majority, but because it was very long, and received too many replies too fast. I thought that this would be a more organised way of doing things, not that some of the participants would get upset with each other.
Also, from what I remember of the old thread, more non-staff members agreed with Aeyu.
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Freeza literally tells Jiren he is not Low 2-C anymore by saying his once invincible power is now down to a far lower level, and then engages him in H2H.
Everything in the episode suggests a severely weakened Jiren.
That's the plot point.
Everything in the episode suggests a severely weakened Jiren.
That's the plot point.
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