Foreigner (Abigail Williams) NEP removal (Nasuverse)

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I have some major problems with the NEP on this page as I believe it's (unintentionally) taking what is encompassed by this person out of context. Originally I was gonna also propose transduality be removed but imaginary number space is a thing. Here's the thread it was accepted on

Here in this imgur shown that Sut is adjacent to every space thus connected to everything this is also attributed to the gates (which represent every direction/space) which is connected to all time and space.

Spoiler: Time and space connected

So it's clear that this omnipresence only applies to what is spatial in nature.

So why can't NEP work?

Because his NEP on the page is extending to something that is nonexistence/beyond nonexistence which is considered beyond time and space which would make it aspatial and atemporal.

Nonexistent Physiology (Nature Type 2, all Aspect Types: Yog-Sothoth is tied to everything that would include Void that Chaos exists in which is described as beyond nonexistence)

Obviously there is clear issues about how a person whos omnipresence/connection to everything is reliant to what is spatial/in space would also extend to what is beyond time and space and aspatial. NEP just cannot work based on this detail.

So yea NEP wil be going.

 

[Tdjwo]

Wait, so using this logic, are you implying that Chaos is able to resist, or affect Sut Typhon in any way, shape or form? Because if that's what you mean, then yeah, that's plain wrong. The Ultimate gate is explicitly stated to exist outside the Universe and described as a place where "light can never reach," and Yog exists beyond even the ultimate gate while being tied to all possible things brotha.

Chaos= Beyond the universe
Yog Sothoth= Beyond the ultimate gate, which is beyond the Universe (where light can never reach). Also tied to all things.

Tell me who encompasses who.

EASY D I S S A G R E E

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Wait, so using this logic, are you implying that Chaos is able to resist, or affect Sut Typhon in any way, shape or form? Because if that's what you mean, then yeah, that's plain wrong. The Ultimate gate is explicitly stated to exist outside the Universe and described as a place where "light can never reach," and Yog exists beyond even the ultimate gate while being tied to all possible things brotha.

Chaos= Outside the universe
Yog Sothoth= Beyond the ultimate gate, which is beyond the Universe (where light can never reach). Also tied to all things.

Tell me who encompasses who.

EASY D I S S A G R E E

There's no connection between the two. Just because both are beyond/outside the universe doesn't mean that they have some sort of intrinsic connection. Plus it's explicitly pointed out that his omnipresence only extends to what is spatial. He is not tied to "all possible things" as in the corrected translation that was accepted in another thread. The "all possible things" is a mistranslation.

This logic is just flawed. The thing is we don't know considering there is never any reasonable connection or comparison showed between them.

Wait, so using this logic, are you implying that Chaos is able to resist, or affect Sut Typhon in any way, shape or form?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Disagree.

First of all, here's JP text and DeepL translation of it:

"外なる神"、は大いなる門と鍵の神、であらせられる。六つの扉は、上下、左右、前後の、あらゆる空間を、意味して、いる。そして一彼の、大いなる神は、決して光届かぬ、あたしたちの宇宙の、外側、窮極の門、の彼方、に鎮座なさっている。それでいながら、あらゆる空間に隣り合い、全てと、つながっている。

The "Outer God" is the God of the great gates and keys. The six doors signify all space, up and down, left and right, front and back. And he, the Great God, sits beyond the gates of the extreme outside of our universe, where no light can ever reach. And yet, He is adjacent to all space and connected to everything.

It can be clearly seen that the Yog-Sothoth is described here as follows: it is every space, adjacent to every space, exists outside the Ultimate Gate and is connected to everything. So no, his omnipresence doesn't limited by spatial nature.

Second. Chaos was described as thing from another universe, that was created within space-time by a civilization. Also, Chaos shown feat that it existed in a hole that called nonexistent Void. However, Yog-Sothoth shown that he's superior to the entities like Solomon and his magic so Chaos shouldn't be superior or even equal to Yog.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Disagree.

First of all, here's JP text and DeepL translation of it:


It can be clearly seen that the Yog-Sothoth is described here as follows: it is every space, adjacent to every space, exists outside the Ultimate Gate and is connected to everything. So no, his omnipresence doesn't limited by spatial nature.

Second. Chaos was described as thing from another universe, that was created within space-time by a civilization. Also, Chaos shown feat that it existed in a hole that called nonexistent Void. However, Yog-Sothoth shown that he's superior to the entities like Solomon and his magic.

An actual translation takes precedent over machine translation. Also this still shows the connection between "everything" and "space".

I fail to see how him being superior would scale to hax. Sut would also just not extend to said void as well. NEP can't exactly be spatial either.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

An actual translation takes precedent over machine translation. Also this still shows the connection between "everything" and "space".

I fail to see how him being superior would scale to hax. So does Chaos have NEP or not or is it only the void that it resides in? Sut would also just not extend to said void as well. NEP can't exactly be spatial either.

In translation, there is no correlation between space and what the Yog-Sothoth encompasses. It is said that it adjoins the space and it is said that it encompasses everything. It has not been stated that it covers only that which has a spatial nature.
In addition, the very existence beyond the Ultimate Gate makes the Yog-Sothoth also non-spatial in any term, which is why, given his description, he is able to embrace Chaos and its nonexistent Void.

 

[Tdjwo]

There's no connection between the two. Just because both are beyond/outside the universe doesn't mean that they have some sort of intrinsic connection. Plus it's explicitly pointed out that his omnipresence only extends to what is spatial. He is not tied to "all possible things" as in the corrected translation that was accepted in another thread. The "all possible things" is a mistranslation.

This logic is just flawed. The thing is we don't know considering there is never any reasonable connection or comparison showed between them.

Dude. If two characters/entities are stated to exist outside of the universe but one of them is stated to be beyond something that is also beyond the universe, while encompassing them, what do you think the logical conclusion would be? Yog is like a layer above outside the Universe. And yes, there is a connection between both as its stated Yog is beyond all space and time and encompasses everything while tied to all possible things outside the world. Realistically, he's only below the root. You have to reset the entire Outer Gods thread to disprove this because it's already accepted that Yog is a dimension above all things in the verse including Chaos.

Idk what you're insinuating regarding translations. The context is pretty clear.

Anyways, I'm outta here. Busy with some better shiiii

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

In translation, there is no correlation between space and what the Yog-Sothoth encompasses. It is said that it adjoins the space and it is said that it encompasses everything. It has not been stated that it covers only that which has a spatial nature.

Yes it has it seems rather clear when you get information about gates representing every direction and being connected to all time and space and him being connected to them then it's literally followed up by it saying he is adjacent to every space and connected to everything making the clear connection.

In addition, the very existence beyond the Ultimate Gate makes the Yog-Sothoth also non-spatial in any term, which is why, given his description, he is able to embrace Chaos and its nonexistent Void.

I fail to see how this can be the case. There is still literally no connection to be had.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Dude. If two characters/entities are stated to exist outside of the universe but one of them is stated to be beyond something that is also beyond the universe, while encompassing them, what do you think the logical conclusion would be? Yog is like a layer above outside the Universe. And yes, there is a connection between both as its stated Yog is beyond all space and time and encompasses everything while tied to all possible things outside the world. Realistically, he's only below the root. You have to reset the entire Outer Gods thread to disprove this because it's already accepted that Yog is a dimension above all things in the verse including Chaos.

He is beyond the universe or time and space but his omnipresence is still just attributed to the gates which is connected to all time and space. Just because he is outside the world doesn't create a magical connection to other things that would be aspatial and atemporal.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I'm just gonna wait for staff since I believe what needed to be said was already said.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Yes it has it seems rather clear when you get information about gates representing every direction and being connected to all time and space and him being connected to them then it's literally followed up by it saying he is adjacent to every space and connected to everything making the clear connection.

You are talking about gates that exist inside space and declare that the Yog is limited exclusively to them, completely ignoring the fact that beyond the Universe and the Outer Universe there are Ultimate Gates that transcend both universes and everything in them, including Dreamlands.

I fail to see how this can be the case. There is still literally no connection to be had.

The fact is that the statement about the omnipresence of the Yog-Sothoth is not tied to spatial nature. In fact, Yog is also an Outer Universe in which the laws of the World and the Reverse Side of the World do not work at all, being a place of pure madness, chaos and fiction. And yet, Yog-Sothoth is omnipresent even there.

He is beyond the universe or time and space but his omnipresence is still just attributed to the gates which is connected to all time and space. Just because he is outside the world doesn't create a magical connection to other things that would be aspatial and atemporal.

As I said above, his omnipresence doesn't tied only to things that is spatial in nature considering that Yog exists far above such concepts, since the statements about this relate directly to him, and not to the gates that exist inside the space.

 

[Tdjwo]

He is beyond the universe or time and space but his omnipresence is still just attributed to the gates which is connected to all time and space. Just because he is outside the world doesn't create a magical connection to other things that would be aspatial and atemporal.

My brother in christ, why in the world would his omnipresence be limited to only all time and space when it's specifically noted that he exists beyond the ultimate gate, you know, the same gate that already exists outside the Universe? While Chaos only exists outside the universe with no indication that he exists outside the Ultimate Gate like Yog-Sothoth is. You are basically implying Chaos is on the same level or above Yog-Sothoth in terms of existence which is not only against the already long-accepted thread regarding outer gods, but also against the story itself. To simply it for you;

Chaos is outside the universe
The Ultimate Gate is also outside the Universe.
But Yog-Sothoth/Sut-Typhon exists beyond the Ultimate Gate which is located outside the universe where light can never reach. So if he's stated to be tied to all possible things below, then he's tied to Chaos. It's that simple.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

You are talking about gates that exist inside space and declare that the Yog is limited exclusively to them, completely ignoring the fact that beyond the Universe and the Outer Universe there are Ultimate Gates that transcend both universes and everything in them, including Dreamlands.

The fact is that the statement about the omnipresence of the Yog-Sothoth is not tied to spatial nature. In fact, Yog is also an Outer Universe in which the laws of the World and the Reverse Side of the World do not work at all, being a place of pure madness, chaos and fiction. And yet, Yog-Sothoth is omnipresent even there.

As I said above, his omnipresence doesn't tied only to things that is spatial in nature considering that Yog exists far above such concepts, since the statements about this relate directly to him, and not to the gates that exist inside the space.

I'm just gonna stop replying since you're not gonna get the point anyways.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

My brother in christ, why in the world would his omnipresence be limited to only all time and space when it's specifically noted that he exists beyond the ultimate gate, you know, the same gate that already exists outside the Universe? While Chaos only exists outside the universe with no indication that he exists outside the Ultimate Gate like Yog-Sothoth is. You are basically implying Chaos is on the same level or above Yog-Sothoth in terms of existence which is not only against the already long-accepted thread regarding outer gods, but also against the story itself. To simply it for you;

Chaos is outside the universe
The Ultimate Gate is also outside the Universe.
But Yog-Sothoth/Sut-Typhon exists beyond the Ultimate Gate which is located outside the universe where light can never reach. So if he's stated to be tied to all possible things below, then he's tied to Chaos. It's that simple.

Ok so we still just going to ignore how there's a natural progression that gives clear context on how since he is adjacent to every space he is connected to everything.

None of this is against the story.

There is nothing left to say besides constant back and forth so I rather not be in a situation where people fight to have the last word. I will wait for staff.

 

[rogueprestonian]

Disagree FRA, You are trying to ignore “Him” being Outside the Ultimate Gate here.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Disagree FRA, You are trying to ignore “Him” being Outside the Ultimate Gate here.

This means literally nothing for NEP. I feel like there's some sort of tunnel vision going on here where it causes the inability to actually look at context.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Also explicitly called beings with flesh and blood with a finite lifespan implying they still maintain a typical existence.

Da Vinci:
Hmm. Okay, let me make sure I've got this straight.
The key features that define these Outer Gods are:
One: they're huge, gross, and powerful.
Two: our usual physics and magecraft rules don't apply, which also makes it hard to communicate.
Three: they claim ownership rights to Earth, and inventor's rights to its life-forms.
Four: if they were actually in charge of Earth, they'd turn it into something weird and grotesque.
Five: most of them have been imprisoned.
Six: while they generally act independently, some of them are allies, and some are enemies.
And seven: Regardless of what they look like, they're not immortal metaphysical or conceptual beings. They're still flesh and blood creatures with life spans just as finite as ours.

 

[Deagonx]

Also explicitly called beings with flesh and blood with a finite lifespan implying they still maintain a typical existence.

This alone very concretely disproves NEP, which appears to have been granted on a somewhat specious basis, given that only the void is described as non-existence, not the character.

I agree with the removal of NEP. Beings that are said to be explicitly non-metaphysical non-conceptual flesh and blood beings shouldn't have NEP based on location alone.

 

[Deagonx]

@LephyrTheRevanchist @DarkGrath @Firestorm808

Would you guys check this out before it snowballs out of hand?

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

This alone very concretely disproves NEP, which appears to have been granted on a somewhat specious basis, given that only the void is described as non-existence, not the character.

I agree with the removal of NEP. Beings that are said to be explicitly non-metaphysical non-conceptual flesh and blood beings shouldn't have NEP based on location alone.

I should remind you that Yog-Sothoth exists as whole our universe and outer universe as well as exists beyond them. The context of Gilles' words is Vulthoom and Cthulhu, both of which cannot enter Our Universe. However, Yog-Sothoth shows that he exists AS WHOLE OUR UNIVERSE that already disproves Gilles' statement. Also existing beyond time and space, beyond the Universe and beyond the Ultimate Gate, also should talk to you that Yog isn't flesh and blood as Vuthoom, for example.

 

[Tdjwo]

Also explicitly called beings with flesh and blood with a finite lifespan implying they still maintain a typical existence.

You do realize the statement wasn't referring to Sut-Typhon right?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

You do realize the statement wasn't referring to Sut-Typhon right?

Looks like the statement is being blanketed to all outer gods so I see no reason for it not to.

Also NEP is already disproven when his omnipresence outside of his outer universe or whatever is quite literally explicitly attributed to what is spatial. Being beyond it doesn't really mean anything in regards to that and means nothing in terms of being connected to what is aspatial and atemporal.

And his Great God is seated beyond the ultimate gate that is beyond our universe where light cannot reach. He is adjoined to every space, connected to everything. Written in a human language that is unclear, he is sometimes referred to as "Sut Tyhoon" but..

See the very obvious progression? It's saying that since he is adjoined to every space he is connected to everything. It doesn't get more explicit than that.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Also NEP is already disproven when his omnipresence outside of his outer universe or whatever is quite literally explicitly attributed to what is spatial. Being beyond it doesn't really mean anything in regards to that and means nothing in terms of being connected to what is aspatial and atemporal.

I told you above that statement about omnipresence refers to Yog-Sothoth directly, not to the 'six doors' or any other Gate. Not even Ultimate Gate, but to Yog-Sothoth who exists beyond the Universe, beyond Outer Universe (that already ***** all of physics and reason) and even beyond the Ultimate Gate that exists beyond both Universe and Outer Universe. As I can see, for now you are just substituting concepts, trying to weaken statements about Yog without looking into the context of statements.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Looks like the statement is being blanketed to all outer gods so I see no reason for it not to.

I should remind you that Yog-Sothoth exists as whole our universe and outer universe as well as exists beyond them. The context of Gilles' words is Vulthoom and Cthulhu, both of which cannot enter Our Universe. However, Yog-Sothoth shows that he exists AS WHOLE OUR UNIVERSE that already disproves Gilles' statement. Also existing beyond time and space, beyond the Universe and beyond the Ultimate Gate, also should talk to you that Yog isn't flesh and blood as Vuthoom, for example.

 

[Greatsage13th]

Agree to disagree

 

[Tdjwo]

Looks like the statement is being blanketed to all outer gods so I see no reason for it not to.

You are just making stuff up. Can a physical being be connected to all space and time? You require NEP to do that. Sut-Typhon is stated to be connected to all things including space and time which already disproves him having physical bodies like the other Outer gods.

Also NEP is already disproven when his omnipresence outside of his outer universe or whatever is quite literally explicitly attributed to what is spatial. Being beyond it doesn't really mean anything in regards to that and means nothing in terms of being connected to what is aspatial and atemporal.

Yeah I'm not arguing for this again. I and MrUnderlord already debunked you comments ago. You are just going to keep repeating the same thing again.

 

[BreezeHM]

Wouldn't this be NEP Type 3 then? Yog-Sothoth is a flesh and blood creature hence has a body, but his body cannot be affected because his body is paradoxically nonexistent in nature.

The question is whether Yog would actually be tied to the Void where Chaos exists. Going by what BestMGQScalerEver said, Yog is adjoined to every space, connected to everything. The Void where Chaos resides is beyond Time and Space that which would make it aspatial and atemporal, meaning Yog is not tied to the void where Chaos resides.

I disagree because Yog Is said to be the Outer Universe which is already beyond Time and Space. Yog is tied to the Outer Universe and dreamlands which is beyond Time and Space making him connected to things that are aspatial and atemporal. The statement of Yog being adjoined to every space would apply to the Universe, connecting him to things that are aspatial, atemporal, spatial and temporal. If you add that Outer gods are not affected by the principles of magecraft and the laws of physics, I believe that Yog having NEP is warranted

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Wouldn't this be NEP Type 3 then? Yog-Sothoth is a flesh and blood creature hence has a body, but his body cannot be affected because his body is paradoxically nonexistent in nature.

The question is whether Yog would actually be tied to the Void where Chaos exists. Going by what BestMGQScalerEver said, Yog is adjoined to every space, connected to everything. The Void where Chaos resides is beyond Time and Space that which would make it aspatial and atemporal, meaning Yog is not tied to the void where Chaos resides.

I disagree because Yog Is said to be the Outer Universe which is already beyond Time and Space. Yog is tied to the Outer Universe and dreamlands which is beyond Time and Space making him connected to things that are aspatial and atemporal. The statement of Yog being adjoined to every space would apply to the Universe, connecting him to things that are aspatial, atemporal, spatial and temporal. If you add that Outer gods are not affected by the principles of magecraft and the laws of physics, I believe that Yog having NEP is warranted

How does being connected to every space also connect to what is aspatial? Also being aspatial and atemporal would not grant any form of NEP anyways.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

You are just making stuff up. Can a physical being be connected to all space and time? You require NEP to do that. Sut-Typhon is stated to be connected to all things including space and time which already disproves him having physical bodies like the other Outer gods.

Yeah I'm not arguing for this again. I and MrUnderlord already debunked you comments ago. You are just going to keep repeating the same thing again.

"need NEP to do that" You mean omnipresence? Lmfao. Last I checked a physical being can indeed be omnipresent even if they aren't physically everywhere.

Didn't debunk shit. Most of the arguments just rely on incredulity and proof by example.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

How does being connected to every space also connect to what is aspatial? Also being aspatial and atemporal would not grant any form of NEP anyways.

I disagree because Yog Is said to be the Outer Universe which is already beyond Time and Space. Yog is tied to the Outer Universe and dreamlands which is beyond Time and Space making him connected to things that are aspatial and atemporal. The statement of Yog being adjoined to every space would apply to the Universe, connecting him to things that are aspatial, atemporal, spatial and temporal. If you add that Outer gods are not affected by the principles of magecraft and the laws of physics, I believe that Yog having NEP is warranted

That means that Yog-Sothoth can encompass aspatial and atemporal nonexistent Void of Chaos. That is.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

That means that Yog-Sothoth can encompass aspatial and atemporal nonexistent Void of Chaos. That is.

Note that I've never seen a single scan that says he's omnipresent in outer universe. This is also still not enough to connect the omnipresence to the void chaos resides in. It's literally a proof by example fallacy saying since he's omnipresent in outer universe which is aspatial and atemporal means he is also omnipresent in the void which hasn't been shown to be the case at all and at best his omnipresence is only in outer universe and also spatial areas.

 

[Tdjwo]

"need NEP to do that" You mean omnipresence? Lmfao. Last I checked a physical being can indeed be omnipresent even if they aren't physically everywhere.

I guess you were just snoring when it was shown that the gate embodies all the space and time that exists while also existing beyond it along with Sut-Typhon existing even beyond the gate. I don't know how many times we have to say this to you. If an entity exists beyond the confines of space and time while being connected to it, what does that make him? Tell me.

Didn't debunk shit. Most of the arguments just rely on incredulity and proof by example.

Cope.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

I guess you were just snoring when it was shown that the gate embodies all the space and time that exists while also existing beyond it along with Sut-Typhon existing even beyond the gate. I don't know how many times we have to say this to you. If an entity exists beyond the confines of space and time while being connected to it, what does that make him? Tell me.

Omnipresent and beyond dimensional existence.

 

[BreezeHM]

Can you all not disagree without being toxic to one another?

How does being connected to every space also connect to what is aspatial? Also being aspatial and atemporal would not grant any form of NEP anyways.

The space that he is connected to is the Outer Universe and dreamlands that are aspatial. You said that Yog is not tied to the void that chaos exists in because it's aspatial and atemporal. If he's already connected to something that is aspatial and atemporal why would he not be connected to Chaos' void?

Note that I've never seen a single scan that says he's omnipresent in outer universe. This is also still not enough to connect the omnipresence the void chaos resides in. It's literally a proof by example fallacy saying since he's omnipresent in outer universe which is aspatial and atemporal means he is also omnipresent in the void which hasn't been shown to be the case at all and at best his omnipresence is only in outer universe and also spatial areas.

Kiara when talking to Abby says she senses the Outer Universe within her. Within Abby is Yog, meaning Yog is the Outer Universe. I believe being it should qualify for omnipresence

 

[Tdjwo]

Omnipresent and beyond dimensional existence.

Exactly. So you agree he's omnipresent to things under the Ultimate gate which would include Chaos right? That's why he has NEP.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

The space that he is connected to is the Outer Universe and dreamlands that are aspatial. You said that Yog is not tied to the void that chaos exists in because it's aspatial and atemporal. If he's already connected to something that is aspatial and atemporal why would he not be connected to Chaos' void?

Because it's a proof by example fallacy and last time I checked Outer Universe was also never described as a void of nonexistence. At best he's omnipresent in his native universe and since he is adjacent to every space it makes him connected to everything referring to the context of the normal universe which the void is also outside of.

Kiara when talking to Abby says she senses the Outer Universe within her. Within Abby is Yog, meaning Yog is the Outer Universe. I believe being it should qualify for omnipresence

Hmm. This doesn't seem enough to be called omnipresence within the outer universe, more like she's sensing something that originates from the outer universe within her. But thanks for providing a scan.

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Exactly. So you agree he's omnipresent to things under the Ultimate gate which would include Chaos right? That's why he has NEP.

Lmfao. No. This isn't the gotcha moment you were hoping for.

 

[Overlord_Darkness]

Hmm. This doesn't seem enough to be called omnipresence within the outer universe, more like she's sensing something that originates from the outer universe within her. But thanks for providing a scan.

It was directly stated as "I sense an remote universe beyond even the Buddha's reach". That's literally talks about Outer Universe and not about "just originates" from it.

 

[Tdjwo]

Lmfao. No. This isn't the gotcha moment you were hoping for.

My bro is really lost

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

It was directly stated as "I sense an remote universe beyond even the Buddha's reach". That's literally talks about Outer Universe and not about "just originates" from it.

I don't see how that can't just as easily be interpreted as she just senses something from it hence sensing the remote universe.