Flowey 9-B Downgrade (+ slight Monster Weakness change)

[Eden_Warlock99]

Flowey's 9-A Justification is:

"Capable of casually crippling a minimally Determined Frisk."
Which is 9-B

"Should be able to trade blows with opponents capable of harming him."
Since Flowey's durability is Unknown, this is well, Unknown

"Flowey's level of strength in the face of monsters varies with his LV, which increases when he kills enemies. He has gained enough LV to kill everyone in the Underground on multiple occasions, although LOVE primarily measures violence and willingness to hurt, which is extremely effective against monsters. His LV goes back to zero when he resets"
This, if anything, debunks 9-A Flowey, since the only way you can get him to that level is with his "Kill everyone in the Underground" statement

That's it.

Edit: Currently every Monster file says "If she's not determined to kill her foe, and is facing against a foe with a strong soul and has murderous intent, her defenses will weaken", when it should actually say "If she's not determined to kill her foe, and is facing against a foe with murderous intent, her defenses will weaken" since Flowey, a soulless being, can exploit their weakness to murderous intent + It's never stated that you need a strong soul to weaken monsters with murderous intent, just that a strong soul with murderous intent would be fatal to most monsters

You’re a mean one, Mr. Flower~
You’re a weed without a soooooul
You’re so bored of playing nice
So you kill to feel whole

Mr. Floooower

You think the world’s kill or be killed
But that’s a great big load of bull~

 

[ImmortalDread]

Mhm interesting. Neutral for now, leaning to agree

 

[It_is_i_wyatt]

would it be something like a "varies from 9-B to 9-A depending on LV" or aa "9-B, up to 9-A with higher LV", something like that, maybe just outright separate keys

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I'm not sure if we treat LVs as power increase or just a measurement of violence and willingness to hurt

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

bump

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Didn't Flowey fought all character in lore?

Also, he was capable of harming Asgore at last.

So nah, don't do that.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Didn't Flowey fought all character in lore?

Also, he was capable of harming Asgore at last.

Flowey did do that, but either he beat them via murderous intent or by getting stronger (LV)
He killed a near-death off-guard Asgore, don't think that's enough to scale

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Flowey did do that, but either he beat them via murderous intent or by getting stronger (LV)

Well, to be fair, creatures with DT can power themself with Determination like Frisk and Amalgamates does.

And we are aware than Flowey was capable of holding down Asgore and Toriel with wines so at least he can overthrone their LS because they can't get out even if they struggle.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And we are aware than Flowey was capable of holding down Asgore and Toriel with wines so at least he can overthrone their LS because they can't get out even if they struggle.

That's 6 SOULs absorbed Flowey tho

 

[Deleted member 16409]

That's 6 SOULs absorbed Flowey tho

Fair

But... wouldn't it make Asgore and all 9A cast 8-A since he absorbed all human SOULs?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

But... wouldn't it make Asgore and all 9A cast 8-A since he absorbed all human SOULs?

Think we treat it as PIS or Flowey holding back for some reason

 

[Winter]

Flowey took a full power attack from Toriel in the beginning however, so I don’t see why he wouldn’t be 9-A. Either that or he doesn’t scale to his durability for some reason

That's 6 SOULs absorbed Flowey tho

Nothing ever implied he absorbed them. Monsters absorbing human souls transforms them immediately. Flowey did so as well in the Neutral run. This time, it said he took them, not he absorbed them.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Flowey took a full power attack from Toriel in the beginning however, so I don’t see why he wouldn’t be 9-A. Either that or he doesn’t scale to his durability for some reason

Nothing implies that was Toriel's full power and it's contradicted by Flowey dying to 10-B Sans and getting one-shot by Frisk

Nothing ever implied he absorbed them. Monsters absorbing human souls transforms them immediately. Flowey did so as well in the Neutral run. This time, it said he took them, not he absorbed them.

Guess you forgot the "under my power" part

While you guys were having your little pow-wow…
I took the human SOULS!
And now, not only are THOSE under my power…
But all of your FRIENDS’ SOULS are gonna be mine, too!
Hee hee hee.
And you know what the best part is?
It’s all your fault.
It’s all because you MADE THEM love you.

Not to mention, if he didn't absorb the SOULs he wouldn't even have the power needed absorb the underground since it requires "incredible power"

Photoshop Flowey seems to be a conscious choice on his part, using the immense power of the SOULs to alter the “game” and himself to be more powerful and frightening

 

[Winter]

Nothing implies that was Toriel's full power and it's contradicted by Flowey dying to 10-B Sans and getting one-shot by Frisk

She attacked in the same manner she attacked Asgore, who she sent flying with the same exact attack. She has no reason to hold back either. Sans negates durability with Karma, him dying to Sans is irrelevant to statistics. It’s like saying Frisk is 10-B because they died to Sans. Flowey was incredibly weakened here, it wasn’t a one-shot

Guess you forgot the "under my power" part

Not to mention, if he didn't absorb the SOULs he wouldn't even have the power needed absorb the underground since it requires "incredible power"

Under my power doesn’t mean “I have absorbed of the human souls,” it sounds far more of a “I have control over them”

It’s completely baseless to assume he can’t. He literally absorbed the 6 humans souls in the Neutral Run, what makes it so different that he has soul manipulation at this range?

Photoshop Flowey seems to be a conscious choice on his part, using the immense power of the SOULs to alter the “game” and himself to be more powerful and frightening

It’s conscious, he also did it immediately (or in a short time frame, depends on what he did after he booted you off)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Well, Flowey being Asgore-level wouldn't really make sense, since he did state that he would never have been able to defeat Asgore, in a situation where he didn’t have LOVE
And while Toriel is aware of Asgore's power, she has no reason to assume Flowey can survive a full-power attack (Since everyone in the Ruins is 9-B)

Under my power doesn’t mean “I have absorbed of the human souls,” it sounds far more of a “I have control over them”

It’s completely baseless to assume he can’t. He literally absorbed the 6 humans souls in the Neutral Run, what makes it so different that he has soul manipulation at this range?

Well his later line "But all of your FRIENDS’ SOULS are gonna be mine, too!" really implies he absorbed them, no?

According to the third lab entry, forcefully removing a soul from a living monster would require incredible power, and unless we assume Base Flowey is leagues above everyone else, it's safe to assume he absorbed the 6 SOULs

 

[Deleted member 16409]

According to the third lab entry, forcefully removing a soul from a living monster would require incredible power, and unless we assume Base Flowey is leagues above everyone else, it's safe to assume he absorbed the 6 SOULs

Doesn't Flowey actually have a lot of Determination which stated to be the very power of SOUL..?

Like, his power is already leagues above Asgore since Determination.

 

[Winter]

Well, Flowey being Asgore-level wouldn't really make sense, since he did state that he would never have been able to defeat Asgore, in a situation where he didn’t have LOVE
And while Toriel is aware of Asgore's power, she has no reason to assume Flowey can survive a full-power attack (Since everyone in the Ruins is 9-B)

I didn’t say he’s as strong as Asgore, I’m saying he took an attack from Toriel, which logically would make him some degree of 9-A that is lesser than Toriel’s (which is supported by your scan that he couldn’t beat Asgore). Why would she hold back though? This isn’t a matter of Toriel trying to keep the Ruins monsters safe. She has been shown not to hold back against the people harming Frisk. Flowey was legitimately trying to kill Frisk (unlike any Ruins monster, whom really only attack Frisk when they run into them), and Asgore.

Well his later line "But all of your FRIENDS’ SOULS are gonna be mine, too!" really implies he absorbed them, no?

Not really. It’s Flowey monologuing on what he plans to do. Nothing ever implies he absorbed them in that moment until he actually does absorb them. Besides, the other boss monsters can still block his projectiles, which really wouldn’t make sense if he possessed the power of the Human Souls. Either he doesn’t have them, or you would be making the boss monsters 8-A, which doesn’t make sense.

According to the third lab entry, forcefully removing a soul from a living monster would require incredible power, and unless we assume Base Flowey is leagues above everyone else, it's safe to assume he absorbed the 6 SOULs

Flowey possesses determination, like Origin said. He being able to absorb souls isn’t out of the ordinary.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

I didn’t say he’s as strong as Asgore, I’m saying he took an attack from Toriel, which logically would make him some degree of 9-A that is lesser than Toriel’s (which is supported by your scan that he couldn’t beat Asgore).

If Flowey's base power was around Toriel's, which would increases via his murderous intent, I don't see how he'd have any trouble, let alone think it's impossible, to get past Asgore?

Why would she hold back though? This isn’t a matter of Toriel trying to keep the Ruins monsters safe. She has been shown not to hold back against the people harming Frisk. Flowey was legitimately trying to kill Frisk (unlike any Ruins monster, whom really only attack Frisk when they run into them), and Asgore.

Toriel values all lives, both humans and monsters. This is evident in both the pacifist and genocide routes. She even says "As terrible as ASGORE is... He deserves mercy. too."

So why, knowing that all the Ruin monsters would die to one of her fireballs, would she not hold back?

Not really. It’s Flowey monologuing on what he plans to do. Nothing ever implies he absorbed them in that moment until he actually does absorb them. Besides, the other boss monsters can still block his projectiles, which really wouldn’t make sense if he possessed the power of the Human Souls. Either he doesn’t have them, or you would be making the boss monsters 8-A, which doesn’t make sense.

"Don't Give Up" Flowey can't be Base Flowey because not only does he use a colored vine, a trait only seen with attacks in the Omega Flowey battle (and a little in the Asriel fight), but with that single vine, he was able to defeat all of your friends at once. (Including Asgore)
Which creates this scaling chain (Asgore>Flowey>Asgore)

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Besides, the other boss monsters can still block his projectiles, which really wouldn’t make sense if he possessed the power of the Human Souls. Either he doesn’t have them, or you would be making the boss monsters 8-A, which doesn’t make sense.

Plus, unless we're scaling Alphys to Asgore and Undyne, we can chalk this up to PIS

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Why won't we make this whole thread PIS then??????

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why won't we make this whole thread PIS then??????

wat

 

[Deleted member 16409]

And btw, Flowey is capable of harming Frisk who was determined on Asgore's level in final fight.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

That's the 8-B Frisk...

 

[Deleted member 16409]

That's the 8-B Frisk...

I lost the line of this dialogue now

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

bump

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

[bump]

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

{bump}

 

[Comiphorous]

Flowey couldn't defeat Asgore, but could defeat Undyne, Toriel, Mettaton and such without problems in his other runs.

This just means Asgore is far stronger than the other strongest 9-As, not that flowey is pitifully weaker than all the other 9-As.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Toriel and Asgore are equal and Undyne can defeat Toriel in some Neutral Routes
I don't see why we'd assume Flowey can kill any of the 9-A without exploiting their weakness to murderous intent + Having a bunch of LV

 

[Comiphorous]

Toriel and Asgore are equal and Undyne can defeat Toriel in some Neutral Routes
I don't see why we'd assume Flowey can kill any of the 9-A without exploiting their weakness to murderous intent + Having a bunch of LV

Undyne overthrew toriel with the ENTIRE UNDERGROUND (which is roughly 10,000 monsters in total) on her side with the rebellion.

Undyne never beat her in combat or anything, she just forcibly removed toriel with an entire army along with her. she definitely isn't equal to them.

If flowey is indeed 9-B, then he'd be stuck fighting toriel in the ruins as he'd be physically incapable of harming her.

 

[Winter]

Toriel and Asgore are equal and Undyne can defeat Toriel in some Neutral Routes
I don't see why we'd assume Flowey can kill any of the 9-A without exploiting their weakness to murderous intent + Having a bunch of LV

Flowey barely even has LV when Frisk arrives. He mostly leaves the killing to you. Flowey is just weaker than most of the 9-As, but not to an absurd degree. Like the other user said, Asgore is stronger than every other monster.

If Flowey's base power was around Toriel's, which would increases via his murderous intent, I don't see how he'd have any trouble, let alone think it's impossible, to get past Asgore?

Toriel values all lives, both humans and monsters. This is evident in both the pacifist and genocide routes. She even says "As terrible as ASGORE is... He deserves mercy. too."

So why, knowing that all the Ruin monsters would die to one of her fireballs, would she not hold back?

I had said previously he was lesser than Toriel, not around or equal too. Flowey has never killed anyone once Frisk arrived.

Toriel never uses full strength, and she would still hold back, but let’s keep in mind Flowey isn’t a monster. She also noted how he was straight up torturing Frisk. She can still harm him if she wants, and she does harm others on many occasions, she just doesn’t kill.

"Don't Give Up" Flowey can't be Base Flowey because not only does he use a colored vine, a trait only seen with attacks in the Omega Flowey battle (and a little in the Asriel fight), but with that single vine, he was able to defeat all of your friends at once. (Including Asgore)
Which creates this scaling chain (Asgore>Flowey>Asgore)

We never see Flowey use his vines to attack, idk why you would say it’s limited to Omega Flowey. Flowey restrained them with vines, that’s a lifting strength feat, not AP. No scaling chain can be made out of this. Also keep in mind all of the monsters can easily block his projectiles. If he absorbed them, they wouldn’t be able to match any of his projectiles.

Plus, unless we're scaling Alphys to Asgore and Undyne, we can chalk this up to PIS

Literally no one said that

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If flowey is indeed 9-B, then he'd be stuck fighting toriel in the ruins as he'd be physically incapable of harming her.

Unlike Frisk, Flowey doesn't need to fight Toriel to get to the rest of the underground
Not to mention the fact that a betrayal kill or just having killing intent can let 9-Bs harm 9-As

 

[Winter]

Unlike Frisk, Flowey doesn't need to fight Toriel to get to the rest of the underground
Not to mention the fact that a betrayal kill or just having killing intent can let 9-Bs harm 9-As

I thought this was to me, I was like “How did he type a response that fast ”

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Flowey barely even has LV when Frisk arrives. He mostly leaves the killing to you. Flowey is just weaker than most of the 9-As, but not to an absurd degree. Like the other user said, Asgore is stronger than every other monster.

I mean, we're using LV-less Flowey here? And due to the fact that Flowey's generally an extremely bloodlusted character, scaling him to other Monsters (+ the fact we don't even know how he killed everyone) seems dubious.

Toriel never uses full strength, and she would still hold back, but let’s keep in mind Flowey isn’t a monster. She also noted how he was straight up torturing Frisk. She can still harm him if she wants, and she does harm others on many occasions, she just doesn’t kill.

The thing is, why would this holding back Toriel be 9-A? Everyone in the ruins is 9-B and I don't think Toriel would risk killing Flowey by using a 9-A attack (She thinks Asgore is even worse than Flowey and still thinks he deserves mercy)

We never see Flowey use his vines to attack, idk why you would say it’s limited to Omega Flowey. Flowey restrained them with vines, that’s a lifting strength feat, not AP. No scaling chain can be made out of this. Also keep in mind all of the monsters can easily block his projectiles. If he absorbed them, they wouldn’t be able to match any of his projectiles.

I mean, considering the fact Flowey literally was planning on saving and loading Frisk's death 1 million times, the thing that would only be possible if he absorbed the souls, that coupled with the "under my power" and colored vine evidence pretty much makes Flowey absorbing the souls the safest assumption

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Literally no one said that

If we're using the fact that the main cast could match Flowey's projectiles as a counter to Flowey absorbing the souls, then we should also consider that doing so would make Alphys and Sans on par with a Toriel/Undyne level Base Flowey

 

[Deleted member 16409]

If you wanna talk about Asgore, let me say that Asgore is far above than rest of the monster even skill wise since he fought strongest magicians of all time at that moment and survived.

That magicians was capable of creating Barrier.

Also to say that Asgore fought 6 children who could SAVE&LOAD so let me say that Asgore is far more powerful than Toriel might me.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Btw guys don't use "killing intense" argument

That ain't working since it actually needs SOUL to do that, VERY powerful SOUL.

Which Flowey lack.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

If you wanna talk about Asgore, let me say that Asgore is far above than rest of the monster even skill wise since he fought strongest magicians of all time at that moment and survived.

Toriel and Asgore have the same stats (both 80/80), and in a way, Toriel beat Asgore in game already.
The only thing Asgore has over Toriel is that he has actual combat training and has kept his skills in shape through sparring with Undyne

Asgore fighting the strongest magicians isn't something Toriel couldn't do either, afterall, Gerson could do the same (And he himself states Boss Monsters are the strongest monsters of all)
Plus nothing indicates that the 6 humans were anything more than 9-B

Btw guys don't use "killing intense" argument

That ain't working since it actually needs SOUL to do that, VERY powerful SOUL.

Which Flowey lack.

Flowey can LV up, which means he can also have emotional distancing, or "killing intent"
Monsters attacks and nature are based on emotion and expressing themselves, meaning opponents who distance themselves through killing intent will gradually become stronger in the face of monsters. And monsters become vulnerable when they no longer wish to fight.
DT is also accepted as Human SOULs' soul-power, and Flowey's full of that

 

[Comiphorous]

Toriel and Asgore have the same stats (both 80/80), and in a way, Toriel beat Asgore in game already.
The only thing Asgore has over Toriel is that he has actual combat training and has kept his skills in shape through sparring with Undyne

Toriel didn't 'beat' asgore. the dude reasonably didn't wanna fight his ex-wife

Asgore fighting the strongest magicians isn't something Toriel couldn't do either, afterall, Gerson could do the same (And he himself states Boss Monsters are the strongest monsters of all)
Plus nothing indicates that the 6 humans were anything more than 9-B

Gerson fought in the war, it's never stated he fought the magicians.

Flowey can LV up, which means he can also have emotional distancing, or "killing intent"
Monsters attacks and nature are based on emotion and expressing themselves, meaning opponents who distance themselves through killing intent will gradually become stronger in the face of monsters. And monsters become vulnerable when they no longer wish to fight.
DT is also accepted as Human SOULs' soul-power, and Flowey's full of that

He's physically incapable of emotionally distancing himself. the dude doesn't have emotions.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Toriel didn't 'beat' asgore. the dude reasonably didn't wanna fight his ex-wife

She effortlessly sent Asgore flying with a single fire ball, plus that was more supporting evidence if anything

Gerson fought in the war, it's never stated he fought the magicians.

Gerson fought on the front lines against the humans, plus unless you wanna scale the ∞/∞ Asriel to the 80/80 Asgore, Asgore is nowhere near the magicians' level of power

He's physically incapable of emotionally distancing himself. the dude doesn't have emotions.

This is a very common misconception, but Flowey's full of emotions (fear, sadness, anger, and glee)
The only emotion Flowey is incapable of feeling is compassion towards others.