Flowey 9-B Downgrade (+ slight Monster Weakness change)

[Deleted member 16409]

Gerson fought in the war, it's never stated he fought the magicians.

True

It's unknown what Gerson did in war, but it is known that Asgore is higher than the stats we give him.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It's unknown what Gerson did in war, but it is known that Asgore is higher than the stats we give him.

The only Monster who's stats get weaker are Papyrus's, so it's pretty speculative to say Asgore is higher than 80
Plus the same could be said with Toriel since she was also holding back

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Gerson fought on the front lines against the humans, plus unless you wanna scale the ∞/∞ Asriel to the 80/80 Asgore, Asgore is nowhere near the magicians' level of power

It never was stated that Gerson fought in general battle.

Like if you say you fought WW2 it doesn't automatically. mean you fought in Stalingrad battle or D-Day

But Asgore did so, and he actually survived the fight against them.

Also, also to notice that Children are sure above 9-B since they could LOAD and we use this statement to say that they're determined to strengthen their body enough hard to be 8 tier even.

We have "9-A, possibly higher" on Asgore for a reason.


Also to notice that Asgore's SOUL last second longer than Toriel's, so their power isn't actually same.

 

[Comiphorous]

It never was stated that Gerson fought in general battle.

Undyne literally said he fought on the frontlines and survived. he definitely was fighting.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

But Asgore did so, and he actually survived the fight against them.

Yet Asgore couldn't even kill a single human, plus I doubt the Monster soldiers weren't protecting their king

Also, also to notice that Children are sure above 9-B since they could LOAD and we use this statement to say that they're determined to strengthen their body enough hard to be 8 tier even.

They're "potentially City Block level" because nothing indicates that they reached that level of DETERMINATION
It's doubtful any human except Frisk could even reach it, afterall, Asriel with Chara's SOUL could easily wipe out an entire village of adults simply due to the fact he could actually use a human SOUL's full capacity
Moreover, even 9-B Frisk could SAVE and LOAD, it's nothing special

Also to notice that Asgore's SOUL last second longer than Toriel's, so their power isn't actually same.

Pretty sure Toby only did that so we could process the Flowey betrayal lel

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Yet Asgore couldn't even kill a single human, plus I doubt the Monster soldiers weren't protecting their king

Of course, but it's about surviving the fight against those magicians, not killing them.

Also to say that "protecting" doesn't matter when their power is 9-A vs 8-B, is pure oneshot bro and it doesn't matter what happens.

But, we know at last that he is capable of avoiding attacks and on the picture is shown that he is on the very front and was about to go 1v1 against them.

But in that battle, seems results was catastrophic for monsters because of massive casualties.

They're "potentially City Block level" because nothing indicates that they reached that level of DETERMINATION
It's doubtful any human except Frisk could even reach it, afterall, Asriel with Chara's SOUL could easily wipe out an entire village of adults simply due to the fact he could actually use a human SOUL's full capacity

They've did actually...? Just the fact of SAVE&LOAD is enough.

Moreover, even 9-B Frisk could SAVE and LOAD, it's nothing special

This indicates the fact that they can use their determination, so your statement is false.

Pretty sure Toby only did that so we could process the Flowey betrayal lel

Oh yes, you can use it argument Any time but no one can because you want so?

Undyne literally said he fought on the frontlines and survived. he definitely was fighting.

Nothing states that the was fighting in THAT battle, you think that in wars there's 1 frontline ONLY? Nah bro, there's like hundreds of them.

Furthermore, it was world war between humans and monsters so I'd say there was thousands of battles since.

So I doubt that he was fighting with Asgore.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

damn.

"Flowey downgrade" become "Asgore upgrade" thread

 

[Deleted member 16409]

The only Monster who's stats get weaker are Papyrus's, so it's pretty speculative to say Asgore is higher than 80
Plus the same could be said with Toriel since she was also holding back

Narratively Toriel has weaker SOUL than Asgore.

And it is known that monsters are capable of unleashing their soul power is some circumstances.

 

[FantaRin_The_First]

damn.

"Flowey downgrade" become "Asgore upgrade" thread

Huh, can somebody fill me in on why this is the case?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Also to say that "protecting" doesn't matter when their power is 9-A vs 8-B, is pure oneshot bro and it doesn't matter what happens.

But, we know at last that he is capable of avoiding attacks and on the picture is shown that he is on the very front and was about to go 1v1 against them.

Undyne still protected Monster Kid despite getting one-shot, and again, there's no proof that the magicians or any of the humans there were 8-B.
Asriel was going to casually eradicate an entire village of humans, simply because he could actually use a human SOUL's full capacity

They've did actually...? Just the fact of SAVE&LOAD is enough.

This indicates the fact that they can use their determination, so your statement is false.

I don't see how being able to use their determination means they're 8-B?
Frisk only reached 8-B in their fight with Omega Flowey/Asriel, and yet they could SAVE n LOAD even in the Ruins
9-B Frisk's determination even overpowered Flowey's lel

Oh yes, you can use it argument Any time but no one can because you want so?

yes.

Narratively Toriel has weaker SOUL than Asgore.

And it is known that monsters are capable of unleashing their soul power is some circumstances.

I mean, if we go second by second, does Asgore's SOUL really last longer than Toriel's? Flowey's pellets seem to stop the scene (The heart stops shaking)

 

[DaReaperMan]

Alright lemme just... get things straight.

Flowey tanked an attack from Toriel at basically his weakest state, is this the Toriel that fought Frisk? Probably not, but its likely that Toriel was at least less casual then when she fought Frisk.

The next step to this is that Flowey has more then likely killed Papyrus on more then a few occasions, some likely with low LOVE. And seeing as Flowey was capable of finishing off Asgore and his soul, that puts him on the lower-end of the 9-A spectrum.

Now let's talk about the so-called "anti-feats" to Flowey here.

Sans. ... ... ... You do realize Sans has layered Soul Manipulation and likely dura negged Flowey ANYWAY right? Not counting KARMA on top of that.

Frisk one-shotting the flower. I... I don't even... Frisk was ******* 8-B here! No shit they one-shot Flowey!

 

[Comiphorous]

Frisk one-shotting the flower. I... I don't even... Frisk was ******* 8-B here! No shit they one-shot Flowey!

Flowey should be upgraded. he survived for a few seconds after being hit!!

 

[Greatsage13th]

Disagree with downgrade

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

So what you're saying is that Flowey should be 9-A for not dying from a casual hit from Toriel (Which wasn't even meant to kill) and killing a 1-hit from death Asgore...

Also we have no clue how Flowey killed Papyrus, Undyne or whatever, and considering the fact that a LV 1 Frisk can one-shot Toriel with a betrayal kill, I don't see how his "Killing everyone" statement means he's anything above 9-B

Sans. ... ... ... You do realize Sans has layered Soul Manipulation and likely dura negged Flowey ANYWAY right? Not counting KARMA on top of that.

Why of course! Sans definitely Soul Haxed the soulless flower!
Flowey also like died to everyone, including the fodder 9-B Ruins Monsters, so yeah

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Like his only actual feat is nearly-one shotting BoG Frisk, that's literally all Flowey has

 

[Comiphorous]

So what you're saying is that Flowey should be 9-A for not dying from a casual hit from Toriel (Which wasn't even meant to kill) and killing a 1-hit from death Asgore...

Also we have no clue how Flowey killed Papyrus, Undyne or whatever, and considering the fact that a LV 1 Frisk can one-shot Toriel with a betrayal kill, I don't see how his "Killing everyone" statement means he's anything above 9-B

Why of course! Sans definitely Soul Haxed the soulless flower!
Flowey also like died to everyone, including the fodder 9-B Ruins Monsters, so yeah

Why are thinking were trying to scale him to the highest 9-As? he shouldn't he scales to the lower ones like Papyrus who he himself says he toys with.

I'm pretty sure the straight forward answer is that he just killed them. it's pretty reasonable to assume that, considering he did a full genocide route before.

... Yes. he has layered soul hax. if he didn't his 10-B magic wouldn't do shit to a 9-A murder child.

 

[DaReaperMan]

So what you're saying is that Flowey should be 9-A for not dying from a casual hit from Toriel (Which wasn't even meant to kill) and killing a 1-hit from death Asgore...

Also we have no clue how Flowey killed Papyrus, Undyne or whatever, and considering the fact that a LV 1 Frisk can one-shot Toriel with a betrayal kill, I don't see how his "Killing everyone" statement means he's anything above 9-B

Why of course! Sans definitely Soul Haxed the soulless flower!
Flowey also like died to everyone, including the fodder 9-B Ruins Mosnters, so yeah

Casual Toriel can knock Asgore back in the literal exact same way she hit Flowey, the difference is Flowey was actually damaged and Asgore kind of crawled it off with 0 issue

Prove Flowey died on the Ruins fodder... we don't really know what Flowey died on lol

Flowey did basically everything in any way he could. This means both Betrayal kills and kills straight up. The only monster in the ENTIRE underground Flowey didn't think he could kill outright at a low LOVE(keep in mind he's tried EVERYONE) was Asgore, which basically means Asgore stomped his ass. Asgore is the strongest non-tier 8 or 2 character in the verse for a reason.

Yeah, Sans has layered Soul hax and soul haxing a soulless being isn't unheard of, keep in mind Sans has 10-B magic and likely sought out to kill Flowey at all ends of his LOVE, unless you want to turn around and say that Sans has 9-A magic

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why are thinking were trying to scale him to the highest 9-As? he shouldn't he scales to the lower ones like Papyrus who he himself says he toys with.

"Toys with" as in manipulates and stuff. Undertale is littered with hints that papyrus is being deceived by flowey throughout the game, even after Frisk arrives.

I'm pretty sure the straight forward answer is that he just killed them. it's pretty reasonable to assume that, considering he did a full genocide route before.

That doesn't even mean anything, Flowey already one-shots most Ruin/Snowdin Monsters and can probably do so against the Waterfall/Hotland ones via exploiting their weakness to murderous intent, and the more his LOVE increases, the more damage he does.
Flowey could be 9-C and still do a genocide route

... Yes. he has layered soul hax. if he didn't his 10-B magic wouldn't do shit to a 9-A murder child.

Layered or not, soul hax requires a soul, you can't blood manip a rock, can you?

 

[DaReaperMan]

That doesn't even mean anything, Flowey already one-shots most Ruin/Snowdin Monsters and can probably do so against the Waterfall/Hotland ones via exploiting their weakness to murderous intent, and the more his LOVE increases, the more damage he does.
Flowey could be 9-C and still do a genocide route

Layered or not, soul hax requires a soul, you can't blood manip a rock, can you?

So you agree that Flowey is 9-A in AP then? Cause obviously 9-C is posh.

Digimon characters used to be able to soul hax soulless beings, those beings later were proven to have souls but it was accepted for awhile that they could soul hax soulless beings

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Undyne still protected Monster Kid despite getting one-shot,

Sure, she was SLICED IN TWO.

Monster kid was in a bit different place, like hit wasn't landed on him since he isn't behind her.

and again, there's no proof that the magicians or any of the humans there were 8-B.

"Magician can't be 8-B"

They created the barrier, and it was not their strongest spell and it already dwarfs Asriel's strength meaning they combined are stronger than Asriel.

Also to say that they can unleash the power, especially the guy with a stick since they use it in combat too.

Using their soul power of course.

Asriel was going to casually eradicate an entire village of humans, simply because he could actually use a human SOUL's full capacity

I don't see how being able to use their determination means they're 8-B?
Frisk only reached 8-B in their fight with Omega Flowey/Asriel, and yet they could SAVE n LOAD even in the Ruins
9-B Frisk's determination even overpowered Flowey's lel

You seem don't understand what i even mean in first place.

Somewhere we said that using Load&Save is a highest feat of Determination usage, and it automatically means that you can UNLEASH the power of your soul which means they can be 8-B anytime they actually want or maybe higher.


And also to reminder that Frisk can regulate their stats with DT, like in one moment they were 9-B and got up to 2-B.

yes.

Hypocricy of you.

I mean, if we go second by second, does Asgore's SOUL really last longer than Toriel's? Flowey's pellets seem to stop the scene (The heart stops shaking)

Yes, but it also was stated that Asgore's SOUL is the most powerful in underground so it does fit there I guess.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Casual Toriel can knock Asgore back in the literal exact same way she hit Flowey, the difference is Flowey was actually damaged and Asgore kind of crawled it off with 0 issue

It being the same type of attack doesn't mean she put the same amount of effort in both, Toriel knows how powerful Asgore is, but she'd have no reason to assume some random Ruins Monster could take something that sent the "Strongest Monster of all" flying
Asgore also wasn't really unfazed by her attack, Toriel could give an entire speech before he "crawled it off"

Prove Flowey died on the Ruins fodder... we don't really know what Flowey died on lol

I’ve done everything this world has to offer.
I’ve read every book. I’ve burned every book.
I’ve won every game. I’ve lost every game.
I’ve appeased everyone. I’ve killed everyone.
Sets of numbers… Lines of dialogue… I’ve seen them all.

But yeah, "lost every game" is pretty vague

Flowey did basically everything in any way he could. This means both Betrayal kills and kills straight up. The only monster in the ENTIRE underground Flowey didn't think he could kill outright at a low LOVE(keep in mind he's tried EVERYONE) was Asgore, which basically means Asgore stomped his ass. Asgore is the strongest non-tier 8 or 2 character in the verse for a reason.

Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions. The stronger the hatred or intent to kill, the more damage is inflicted upon the monster.

This is the statement Toriel says when you strike her down towards the Genocide run. She was determined to test your strength, but was clearly shocked when you offed her at once. In just a single strike, and her only thought was that there must have been intense negative emotions for her to die so easily. Even if we don’t really know how strong Toriel could be, she still is a boss monster. And is incredible knowledgeable due to the fact she was the brains of the kingdom.

So even if Flowey didn't use his power to reload/the element of surprise to murder people, Flowey wouldn't fully-scale to the monster he kills and this is without accounting the increased "emotional distancing" that higher LVs give
Flowey also never said that Asgore was the only monster he could kill without LOVE, afterall, Asgore is as powerful as Toriel, and Undyne/Mettaton shouldn't be far behind them both.
Scaling Flowey to Papyrus and lower 9-As requires a bit too much speculation (Like Flowey not gaining any LOVE before fighting them, or not attacking them when their emotional defenses are down)

Digimon characters used to be able to soul hax soulless beings, those beings later were proven to have souls but it was accepted for awhile that they could soul hax soulless beings

Well the conclusion I got from this thread is that soul haxing a soulless being is either an outlier or an inconsistency

Sure, she was SLICED IN TWO.

Monster kid was in a bit different place, like hit wasn't landed on him since he isn't behind her.

Point being? It's not like the other Monsters couldn't push Asgore out of the way
Undyne also implied Asgore has incredibly high evasion, the exact attribute that made Sans so hard to kill

"Magician can't be 8-B"

They created the barrier, and it was not their strongest spell and it already dwarfs Asriel's strength meaning they combined are stronger than Asriel.

Also to say that they can unleash the power, especially the guy with a stick since they use it in combat too.

Using their soul power of course.

The Magicians used a "magic spell" to create the barrier, it's ambiguous whether they're physically that level or not
Also don't see how this means Asgore fought 8-B humans?

Somewhere we said that using Load&Save is a highest feat of Determination usage, and it automatically means that you can UNLEASH the power of your soul which means they can be 8-B anytime they actually want or maybe higher.

Why would it be the highest usage of Determination? Literally every DT user we know can do it (Except maybe Undyne, but it's possible she could)
Flowey definitely wasn't given an entire human SOUL's amount of DT to Save n Load

Yes, but it also was stated that Asgore's SOUL is the most powerful in underground so it does fit there I guess.

A Boss Monster's SOUL is the most powerful in underground, which would include Toriel

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Oh btw, if there was any doubt about the "Never Give Up" Flowey absorbing the 6 human SOULs
Here's him performing a High 8-C+ feat

 

[DaReaperMan]

It being the same type of attack doesn't mean she put the same amount of effort in both, Toriel knows how powerful Asgore is, but she'd have no reason to assume some random Ruins Monster could take something that sent the "Strongest Monster of all" flying
Asgore also wasn't really unfazed by her attack, Toriel could give an entire speech before he "crawled it off"


But yeah, "lost every game" is pretty vague

Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions. The stronger the hatred or intent to kill, the more damage is inflicted upon the monster.

This is the statement Toriel says when you strike her down towards the Genocide run. She was determined to test your strength, but was clearly shocked when you offed her at once. In just a single strike, and her only thought was that there must have been intense negative emotions for her to die so easily. Even if we don’t really know how strong Toriel could be, she still is a boss monster. And is incredible knowledgeable due to the fact she was the brains of the kingdom.

So even if Flowey didn't use his power to reload/the element of surprise to murder people, Flowey wouldn't fully-scale to the monster he kills and this is without accounting the increased "emotional distancing" that higher LVs give
Flowey also never said that Asgore was the only monster he could kill without LOVE, afterall, Asgore is as powerful as Toriel, and Undyne/Mettaton shouldn't be far behind them both.
Scaling Flowey to Papyrus and lower 9-As requires a bit too much speculation (Like Flowey not gaining any LOVE before fighting them, or not attacking them when their emotional defenses are down)

Well the conclusion I got from this thread is that soul haxing a soulless being is either an outlier or an inconsistency

Why would Toriel, who's been roaming the Ruins for who knows how long, not recognize a monster or type of monster from there? For all she knew Flowey was someone Asgore sent that snuck into the Ruins to kill the next human right then and there.

Or he was standing back because his ex-wife, who he still loves, just bitch-slapped him essentially.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking about, couldn't remember the exact quote though, it is vague...

I know Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions... but you're using Genocide Frisk for your example, ya know, the same Frisk that one-shot Asgore(I was wrong about Asgore being the strongest 9-A now that i remember lol).

Ignoring that, and going by the neutral run, where you're not genociding, a betrayal kill generally one-shots Monsters, now we know Flowey didn't exclusively betrayal kill if he's done "everything", which means he would've tried everyone right off the bat. However, Flowey likely believing he could beat Toriel but not Asgore at a low LOVE straight up probably has something to do with Asgore just being more skilled outright...

But again, Flowey doesn't have a soul. One of the prerequisites to be stronger against a monster is a strong soul, as stated, directly, both in your scans and on the profiles. So it doesn't apply.

And there is something separating Toriel and Asgore in power... One has fought full power human mages and LIVED and the other hasn't proveably. I'll let you decide which is which

These assumptions come from Flowey having tried everything, if there's a thing around, he's tried it, if there's someone to kill, he's killed them, most likely in every way he possibly can, if he says there was no way for him to kill someone, that someone is a ******* UNIT becuase he's tried every God damn approach on them. And that's there your arguments fall apart, you're saying there are too many assumptions involved, when Flowey has said he's tried EVERYTHING, you're saying Monsters are weak to I'll intent, leaving out that one requires a strong soul to exercise this weakness when we're talking about a soulless flower.

I'll go with the "KARMA exists" option for Sans kicking the flower to the curb that much then

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Why would Toriel, who's been roaming the Ruins for who knows how long, not recognize a monster or type of monster from there? For all she knew Flowey was someone Asgore sent that snuck into the Ruins to kill the next human right then and there.

I mean, if that was the case, Toriel nullified Flowey's pellets before attacking him, which should give her a rough estimate of how strong Flowey is

Or he was standing back because his ex-wife, who he still loves, just bitch-slapped him essentially.

Fair nuff.
Still, if this attack doesn't even harm Asgore, why would it make Flowey 9-A? Her being less casual then when she fought Frisk shouldn't mean much since Frisk only really fought 9-Bs before Papyrus

I know Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions... but you're using Genocide Frisk for your example, ya know, the same Frisk that one-shot Asgore(I was wrong about Asgore being the strongest 9-A now that i remember lol).

That same Frisk only deals slightly more damage to Asgore if you abort the Genocide Route
Due to that, we can attribute the 9999999999 scene as Chara's strong intent to kill (Which is fueled by hatred)
Which is supported by the fact that Chara not hesitating to start the fight, interrupting Asgore while he is talking and removing the Mercy option

Ignoring that, and going by the neutral run, where you're not genociding, a betrayal kill generally one-shots Monsters, now we know Flowey didn't exclusively betrayal kill if he's done "everything", which means he would've tried everyone right off the bat. However, Flowey likely believing he could beat Toriel but not Asgore at a low LOVE straight up probably has something to do with Asgore just being more skilled outright...

These assumptions come from Flowey having tried everything, if there's a thing around, he's tried it, if there's someone to kill, he's killed them, most likely in every way he possibly can, if he says there was no way for him to kill someone, that someone is a ******* UNIT becuase he's tried every God damn approach on them. And that's there your arguments fall apart, you're saying there are too many assumptions involved, when Flowey has said he's tried EVERYTHING

I mean, I could see Flowey being able to defeat 9-As head-on with enough LV by exploiting their weakness to murderous intent, plus Frisk can do "everything" without killing Box Mettaton. If Asgore and potentially Sans were so difficult that Flowey, an extraordinarily determined being, considered their fights to be literally impossible, then he would still believe that he’s done everything the world has to offer.

I also don't see how a Character stating that "I never could have defeated Character B (Asgore) if it wasn't for your help" somehow means he can defeat everyone in the verse that isn't Character B (Toriel, Undyne, Mettaton)

But again, Flowey doesn't have a soul. One of the prerequisites to be stronger against a monster is a strong soul, as stated, directly, both in your scans and on the profiles. So it doesn't apply.

you're saying Monsters are weak to I'll intent, leaving out that one requires a strong soul to exercise this weakness when we're talking about a soulless flower.

"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL.
If a monster doesn’t want to fight, its defenses will weaken.
And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.
Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill...
Um, let’s end the chapter here..."

This doesn't mean that monsters are only weakened when fighting against someone with a strong SOUL, but that someone having a powerful SOUL attacking with the additional killing intent boost would kill most monsters.
Plus even if that was the case, Flowey's body is full of DT, which is accepted as SOUL power

And there is something separating Toriel and Asgore in power... One has fought full power human mages and LIVED and the other hasn't proveably. I'll let you decide which is which

I'm not denying that Asgore is more skilled, but when it comes to pure firepower, him and Toriel should be even

 

[ShionAH]

Sans dura negged flowey. Like what did you expect? Him kicking flowey?

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Sans dura negged flowey. Like what did you expect? Him kicking flowey?

Pretty sure Sans' bones are still physical objects (Like Papyrus's)
KARMA also probably helped, but his basic dura neg wouldn't work on Flowey

 

[ShionAH]

Pretty sure Sans' bones are still physical objects (Like Papyrus's)

No. Intangible magic attacks*

KARMA also probably helped, but his basic dura neg wouldn't work on Flowey

KR* Karma is sadly still not accepted. I wish it was, would make sans fights 10x better

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

No. Intangible magic attacks*

That was removed I think

 

[ShionAH]

That was removed I think

It should be back since those are intagible magic attacks lol. Why was it removed, weird they ignore invincibility frames

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

It should be back since those are intagible magic attacks lol. Why was it removed, weird they ignore invincibility frames

Still, he could make a physical bone when protecting Frisk, so there's that

 

[DaReaperMan]

I mean, if that was the case, Toriel nullified Flowey's pellets before attacking him, which should give her a rough estimate of how strong Flowey is

Fair nuff.
Still, if this attack doesn't even harm Asgore, why would it make Flowey 9-A? Her being less casual then when she fought Frisk shouldn't mean much since Frisk only really fought 9-Bs before Papyrus

That same Frisk only deals slightly more damage to Asgore if you abort the Genocide Route
Due to that, we can attribute the 9999999999 scene as Chara's strong intent to kill (Which is fueled by hatred)
Which is supported by the fact that Chara not hesitating to start the fight, interrupting Asgore while he is talking and removing the Mercy option


I mean, I could see Flowey being able to defeat 9-As head-on with enough LV by exploiting their weakness to murderous intent, plus Frisk can do "everything" without killing Box Mettaton. If Asgore and potentially Sans were so difficult that Flowey, an extraordinarily determined being, considered their fights to be literally impossible, then he would still believe that he’s done everything the world has to offer.

I also don't see how a Character stating that "I never could have defeated Character B (Asgore) if it wasn't for your help" somehow means he can defeat everyone in the verse that isn't Character B (Toriel, Undyne, Mettaton)


"Because they are made of magic, monsters’ bodies are attuned to their SOUL.
If a monster doesn’t want to fight, its defenses will weaken.
And the crueler the intentions of our enemies, the more their attacks will hurt us.
Therefore, if a being with a powerful SOUL struck with the desire to kill...
Um, let’s end the chapter here..."

This doesn't mean that monsters are only weakened when fighting against someone with a strong SOUL, but that someone having a powerful SOUL attacking with the additional killing intent boost would kill most monsters.
Plus even if that was the case, Flowey's body is full of DT, which is accepted as SOUL power

I'm not denying that Asgore is more skilled, but when it comes to pure firepower, him and Toriel should be even

Which means she threw something around his AP, which means his Dura would scale to his AP, yes?

Because it's a held back 9-A hit, Papyrus is 9-A for Sparring Undyne and being considered tough by her.

Which means it's automatically neutral Frisk who isn't really 9-A on their profile RN, your point? Also Frisk is a human, the 99999999 scene is just Chara being tier ****** 2 and murdering everything I think

Chances are he eventually fought them with a ton of LV instead of raw dogging it, he'd consider with little to no LV that Asgore is impossible, not with max LV, the rest would be a pain in the ass, but not apsolutely impossible.

Both Mettaton and Undyne are weaker then Asgore so... yeah. As for Toriel, why are we assuming she's dead equal to Asgore? Seeing as Asgore has demonstrated better feats(and statements), sure, Toriel is superior to Undyne for knocking Asgore away, but that doesn't mean they're equal in sheer power.

Then we need to revise... like, every Monster file, assuming you're right which is debatable for both sides which I'm not going further. From this: "If she's not determined to kill her foe, and is facing against a foe with a strong soul and has murderous intent, her defenses will weaken" to this: "If she's not determined to kill her foe, and is facing against a foe with murderous intent, her defenses will weaken"

See above I guess

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

Which means she threw something around his AP, which means his Dura would scale to his AP, yes?

Seems reasonable, yeah

Because it's a held back 9-A hit, Papyrus is 9-A for Sparring Undyne and being considered tough by her.

Undyne called Papyrus "actually pretty freaking tough!" and he already has the same DEF stat as Undyne, so it's not far-fetched to say he's 9-A (Most monsters on his level perfrom High-End 9-B feats anyway)
While Flowey survived a casual Toriel fireball that could potentially be 9-A, which seems way more dubious than the Papyrus scaling

Which means it's automatically neutral Frisk who isn't really 9-A on their profile RN, your point? Also Frisk is a human, the 99999999 scene is just Chara being tier ****** 2 and murdering everything I think

We can also abort the Genocide route by sparring Monster Kid, which somehow, despite not gaining any new power boosts, makes Frisk go from slicing Undyne in half with one strike to fighting on-par with her
Flowey's dialogue also changes if you abort Genocide, so it's canonical

Both Mettaton and Undyne are weaker then Asgore so... yeah. As for Toriel, why are we assuming she's dead equal to Asgore? Seeing as Asgore has demonstrated better feats(and statements), sure, Toriel is superior to Undyne for knocking Asgore away, but that doesn't mean they're equal in sheer power.

Well, they both have the same stats (80/80) when they're holding back. So they're at least comparable

Then we need to revise... like, every Monster file, assuming you're right which is debatable for both sides which I'm not going further. From this: "If she's not determined to kill her foe, and is facing against a foe with a strong soul and has murderous intent, her defenses will weaken" to this: "If she's not determined to kill her foe, and is facing against a foe with murderous intent, her defenses will weaken"

Shouldn't be too difficult. I'll even do it in this thread

 

[DaReaperMan]

Seems reasonable, yeah

Undyne called Papyrus "actually pretty freaking tough!" and he already has the same DEF stat as Undyne, so it's not far-fetched to say he's 9-A (Most monsters on his level perfrom High-End 9-B feats anyway)
While Flowey survived a casual Toriel fireball that could potentially be 9-A, which seems way more dubious than the Papyrus scaling

We can also abort the Genocide route by sparring Monster Kid, which somehow, despite not gaining any new power boosts, makes Frisk go from slicing Undyne in half with one strike to fighting on-par with her
Flowey's dialogue also changes if you abort Genocide, so it's canonical

Well, they both have the same stats (80/80) when they're holding back. So they're at least comparable

Shouldn't be too difficult. I'll even do it in this thread

All right I'll compromise on At least 9-B, likely 9-A I guess, I still think Flowey is flat 9-A scaling to peeps like Papyrus but I can compromise

One thing i will say... Yeah but Undyne is 100% determined to gut ya so

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Guys
We killed Toriel on genocide route because Chara hated her

Act Check literally says "Don't worth to talk with."

Also to notice that LV doesn't upgrade us much and from 0 ATK goes to 14 ATK on LV20, the ABSOLUTE.

And to remember, Flowey doesn't have SOUL and also can't abuse that mechanic because he doesn't have that much DT, his power is literally a fraction of human's SOUL

It would be far harder for Flowey to perform that feat

Also to reminder that dudes with DT can simply... adapt to enemy.
Everyone performed it lmao

 

[Deleted member 16409]

It being the same type of attack doesn't mean she put the same amount of effort in both, Toriel knows how powerful Asgore is, but she'd have no reason to assume some random Ruins Monster could take something that sent the "Strongest Monster of all" flying
Asgore also wasn't really unfazed by her attack, Toriel could give an entire speech before he "crawled it off"


But yeah, "lost every game" is pretty vague

Monsters are susceptible to ill intentions. The stronger the hatred or intent to kill, the more damage is inflicted upon the monster.

This is the statement Toriel says when you strike her down towards the Genocide run. She was determined to test your strength, but was clearly shocked when you offed her at once. In just a single strike, and her only thought was that there must have been intense negative emotions for her to die so easily. Even if we don’t really know how strong Toriel could be, she still is a boss monster. And is incredible knowledgeable due to the fact she was the brains of the kingdom.

So even if Flowey didn't use his power to reload/the element of surprise to murder people, Flowey wouldn't fully-scale to the monster he kills and this is without accounting the increased "emotional distancing" that higher LVs give
Flowey also never said that Asgore was the only monster he could kill without LOVE, afterall, Asgore is as powerful as Toriel, and Undyne/Mettaton shouldn't be far behind them both.

Nah bro, Undyne is like 50 ATK, weaker than Asgire almost 2 times

Scaling Flowey to Papyrus and lower 9-As requires a bit too much speculation (Like Flowey not gaining any LOVE before fighting them, or not attacking them when their emotional defenses are down)

Point being? It's not like the other Monsters couldn't push Asgore out of the way
Undyne also implied Asgore has incredibly high evasion, the exact attribute that made Sans so hard to kill

Well, it's fair but not very likely since he was literally poiting his trident against one of them to start fight and go rush.

The Magicians used a "magic spell" to create the barrier, it's ambiguous whether they're physically that level or not
Also don't see how this means Asgore fought 8-B humans?

I used Barrier 2-B feat to say that they're stronger than 7 children and Asriel.

Also to notice that there was one of the magician who literally AOEs with their spell

Why would it be the highest usage of Determination? Literally every DT user we know can do it (Except maybe Undyne, but it's possible she could)
Flowey definitely wasn't given an entire human SOUL's amount of DT to Save n Load

You see, to unlock the Determination power you need a special circumstances. Also, a lot of DT users showed guys who could adapt to any tier expect tier higher than 2-B.

And remember that Undyne can't overthrown nor Asgore nor Flowey in terms of DT.

Also don't forget amalgamations.

A Boss Monster's SOUL is the most powerful in underground, which would include Toriel

Alphys stated that Asgore's is stronger.

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

And to remember, Flowey doesn't have SOUL and also can't abuse that mechanic because he doesn't have that much DT, his power is literally a fraction of human's SOUL

Again, you don't need a SOUL to abuse that mechanic, the Librarby only states that having a powerful SOUL (A.K.A just being strong) in addition to the killing intent weakness would kill most monsters

Also to reminder that dudes with DT can simply... adapt to enemy.
Everyone performed it lmao

Only Frisk increases and decreases their determination to that extent tho

Nah bro, Undyne is like 50 ATK, weaker than Asgire almost 2 times

Undyne is still capable of knocking down Asgore, so they're not that far apart

The 8-B Asgore stuff can probably have its own thread

 

[Comiphorous]

I agree with At least 9-B, possibly 9-A

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Again, you don't need a SOUL to abuse that mechanic, the Librarby only states that having a powerful SOUL (A.K.A just being strong) in addition to the killing intent weakness would kill most monsters

Well, fair

Only Frisk increases and decreases their determination to that extent tho

Memoryhead.
They copied 4-A dude in thread.

Undyne is still capable of knocking down Asgore, so they're not that far apart

Yeah, but in timeline Rudolph already died, also to reminder that it was a sparring, not an actual battle to death so I doubt that Asgore gone to his full potential and probably was suppressed.

The 8-B Asgore stuff can probably have its own thread

Agree. But if it will go on actually then I'd prefer to devide 8-B Asgore and 9-A Asgore since they're both in different moral position and on different power usage.

Like Undyne and Undying have different tiers

 

[Deleted member 16409]

Wait
So Flowery IS strong, then he is 9-A after all?

You played yourself mate.

 

[Deleted member 16409]

you simply made 1 mistake and ruined this thread bro