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Flash (Barry Allen) (Pre-Crisis) Revision:
- Thread starter JohnCenaNation
- Start date
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Oh, ok.
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I think there was some talk on Discord about upgrading some of the 4-Bs to 4-A while downgrading some to like Tier 6 or 7, but that's for another time.Antvasima said:
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Antvasima, where was a comic where barry punched RF into 25th century. Is this BFR?
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It is not quantifiable at all, as this would require FTL kinetic energy, which would require infinite strength. What I am asking is if this feat is BFR.
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Ok.
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I have no idea. Cal is completely NOT okay with 6-B Flash, so I don't have hopes of finishing this any time soon.
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@Spino, Tier 6 does seem too low for Pre-Crisis Flash, but unless we know any better concrete feats. Also, the 4-A feats in Post-Crisis are unreliable for stuff Matt mentions. Wonder Woman used power nulling artifacts to kill Ares' avatars, so she doesn't scale at all. And there's only one legit 4-A feat from Superman, but he needed a power up he didn't normally have access to; "Absorbing enough Anti-solar radiation to destroy half a galaxy" and isn't really a true AP or Durability feat in the general conscientious.
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Well, what rating do you suggest?DarkDragonMedeus said:
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I think Unknow was considered a good place holder for the tier of Pre-Crisis Flash.
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Well, wouldn't it better to use the highest direct feat the character has instead of unknown? It can be like this: 6-B, likely higher.
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>Power levels over coherent storytellingAntvasima said:
Ant. Nobody does. I can't tell you a single writer worth their salt that will tell you that powerscaling is more important than writing a good story. And even then, that's not entirely true. Stuff like Surfer and Thor will 9 times out of 10 not be portrayed at the level of Punisher than they are throwing around their own weight class.
>80 years
We don't become biased against characters because they stood the test of time, Ant. They lasted this long? Good. They have more feats to look at. So long as it's canon, it shouldn't matter who's writing.
>1-A everybody
This is both a slippery slope fallacy and a strawman. The literal highest you could get for heralds is 2-A, and I'm not even trying for that. There's several other things that the cast does scale to however, and they're being written off. I don't believe for a second that the people you said debunked said feats debunked all said feats, with all due respect to them. What I think happens is that in a couple posts, they offer a rebuttal to the feats, and nobody gives a response, so it's considered a debunk. Middling then to 4-B, which if you're actually middling then would be like, 8-B, isn't right.
>Don't turn this into a problem
I knew this was coming. If I can help it, I don't want to turn this into a problem. Revisions shouldn't become a problem. Things should go smoothly and comfortably. But if you're telling me to drop it, I'm afraid that I won't. After seeing a lot of the feats they have, I've come under the firm belief that them being only 4-B is downplay. You telling me to drop it is discouraging discussion, and I think after 5 years of working under you, you'd have enough faith in me to get a coherent revision done, even if it defies your preferred ratings. This isn't me calling you out, of course. I have nothing but respect for you. But with all due respect, you're not going to ban or even shun your longtime employee simply for making revisions to tier 2 when many other people have made far greater and far more complex revisions with less to go by.
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You know what, I think I agree with Cal despite the "troll-ish" nature of his writing.
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> people have made far greater and far more complex revisions with less to go by.
It's painful how true this is. I've seen more complex doodoo get accepted over something as simple as this.
It's painful how true this is. I've seen more complex doodoo get accepted over something as simple as this.
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I am just saying that other franchises don't have anywhere near the same degree of inconsistency as Marvel and DC do, due to a combination of having several hundred writers, writing several tens of thousands of stories, over a timespan of 80 years, along with the tradition of the medium that "everybody can fight everybody" regardless how little sense it makes.
As such, if we start to scale every character to every other character that they have ever managed to harm, withstand, or fight efficiently, it genuinely would land them all at 1-A, via extended scaling chains.
Meaning, we can certainly scale them to explicit feats, but we must make certain that they are not completely illogical outliers, and be even more careful with scaling from other characters, and make sure that fighting them evenly is a consistent portrayal. That is all.
Also, I am obviously not going to demote or ban you. That would be an insane overreaction, and I don't know where you got such a hyperbolic idea. You have been a very nice and well-behaved staff member. I was just asking nicely, since I am extremely sick and tired of dealing with the same topic over and over and over year in and year out, so I always need to let rational and highly knowledgeable other members deal with such arguments, as handling them alone while juggling other tasks at the same time is extremely stressful for me.
In addition, this is the entirely wrong time to deal with any such revisions. Our most reliable Marvel and DC experts are all missing in action, as are most of our staff, due to the Coronavirus pandemic, and we are in the middle of a forum migration.
As such, if we start to scale every character to every other character that they have ever managed to harm, withstand, or fight efficiently, it genuinely would land them all at 1-A, via extended scaling chains.
Meaning, we can certainly scale them to explicit feats, but we must make certain that they are not completely illogical outliers, and be even more careful with scaling from other characters, and make sure that fighting them evenly is a consistent portrayal. That is all.
Also, I am obviously not going to demote or ban you. That would be an insane overreaction, and I don't know where you got such a hyperbolic idea. You have been a very nice and well-behaved staff member. I was just asking nicely, since I am extremely sick and tired of dealing with the same topic over and over and over year in and year out, so I always need to let rational and highly knowledgeable other members deal with such arguments, as handling them alone while juggling other tasks at the same time is extremely stressful for me.
In addition, this is the entirely wrong time to deal with any such revisions. Our most reliable Marvel and DC experts are all missing in action, as are most of our staff, due to the Coronavirus pandemic, and we are in the middle of a forum migration.
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I think we should discuss pre crisis Flash in particular, not marvel/dc problem.
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Agreed, but we do not have any reliable evidence for anything other than "Unknown. At least 6-B, likely higher", so if the rest of you are not satisfied with that, we should simply avoid making the profile and close this thread.
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Power levels are still a factor regardless in storytelling, Marvel has straight up power levels ignored half the time to have larger set pieces while having approximately as many if not more antifeats to contradict their showcase. Juggernaut just causes an earthquake with his strength but then fights against universe shakers and planet busters with no repercussions, Wrecker takes effort to lift and throw a building but is a consistent foe to Thor, Taskmaster and Doom can fight literally every tier in existence, Hulk has an infamously high number of antifeats, same with Silver Surfer who is in everyone's fighting range. The problem here is that not every writer shares the same scale of strength as the other, how the **** can Black Panther and Spider-Man substitute for someone like Daredevil?
If any verse reaches 80 years worth of content with the characters having no proper sense of progression, we're doing the exact same to them as we are doing to Marvel, hell SCP is already reaching this point and similiar standards to Marvel are being applied.
So 3-A everyone is somehow better? Your entire arguemnt is "If I don't think they are this tier, they're not lol" and this is what you're fighting against.
If people are making stupid revisions with poor reasoning that are getting accepted, maybe you should address those verses rather than breaking ours, k?
If any verse reaches 80 years worth of content with the characters having no proper sense of progression, we're doing the exact same to them as we are doing to Marvel, hell SCP is already reaching this point and similiar standards to Marvel are being applied.
So 3-A everyone is somehow better? Your entire arguemnt is "If I don't think they are this tier, they're not lol" and this is what you're fighting against.
If people are making stupid revisions with poor reasoning that are getting accepted, maybe you should address those verses rather than breaking ours, k?
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I get that. But that's not what's going to happen. The direct herald tiers have several feats of their lonesome to beget tier 2. Diana, Hal, and Clark all have tier 2 feats. Not scaling to Mandrakk or Anti Monitor or Spectre. Actual feats themselves, which is what I'm considering. And they have feats of matching people in their lanes who do have feats of that level, like Jenny Quantum, Darkseid avatars, Superboy Prime, Captain Atom, and their Pre-Crisis selves (as again, Hal and Barry didn't get reset).
Forgive me for jumping to that conclusion. I just remember how you feel about Marvel and DC threads and assumed that you would think less of me for my opinion. My apologies for having that negative presumption of you.
Trust me. I'm aware of how hard this'll be to be done in a month. And my response is that I'm not. I don't plan on getting things changed until after the forum move. However, it would be helpful if this thread gets backed up.
Forgive me for jumping to that conclusion. I just remember how you feel about Marvel and DC threads and assumed that you would think less of me for my opinion. My apologies for having that negative presumption of you.
Trust me. I'm aware of how hard this'll be to be done in a month. And my response is that I'm not. I don't plan on getting things changed until after the forum move. However, it would be helpful if this thread gets backed up.
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Cal, do you think overpowering Antimatter cannon is 2-A?
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Well, actual reliable feats of this scale is very different of course. It is why we scaled Superman (Post-Flashpoint) to 2-A when sufficiently powered-up, but you must understand that I have been in quite a lot of threads wherein these high-level feats have been heavily debunked as unreliable. If I remember correctly, Firestorm808 and FanofRPGs even started writing blogs for them.
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@Cal, you are heavily overreacting again. First of all, it doesn't stop Marvel and DC from being all over the place. 9 times out of 10, Superman struggles to perform Tier 8/6 stuff. Furthermore, 99% of his Tier 2/1 stuff are quite literally "The avatars of cosmic beings simply toying with Superman" Making Superman Tier 2 based on that is as fallacious as saying Bulma is Tier 2 because she survived a slap from Beerus. Darksied's Omega Beams have even been deflected by a piece of cement before.
He isn't "Being biased" Antvasima actually loves Superman as a character, and so does Matt. However, Post-Crisis Superheroes simply have no feats beyond 4-B that are actually "Concrete" per-say.
He also isn't "Middling", 4-B is actually pretty generous because those are his "Highest concrete feats". Those are his only pure test to the limit feats that aren't dependent on outside help or involves characters throwing the challenge for him. Superman is just the Krillin if Spectre and Dr. Manhattan are the Gokus and Beerus's. Superman also doesn't have an official power level rating that puts him anywhere near the cosmic beings. And actually, there is an official word of god from DC Comics.
Superman's powers have fluctuated over the years, but he has never had infinite strength. He has never even come close to the likes of the Spectre or other magical beings. There have always been weights he can't lift, enemies he cannot outrun, and he can be killed by enough 3-dimensional force alone.
Doomsday, has not feats beyond Tier 4 and he's stronger than Superman. Martain Manhunter has no feats being Tier 4 and he's stronger than Superman. And even plenty of characters much stronger than Superman peak at Tier 4. Lobo required all his might to move a star and that's his best feat, and this is the same guy who's strong enough to "Rip Superman's arms off."
Anyway, you'll only succeed in unearthing 6 years worth of debunked claims by even attempting to upgrade Post-Crisis to anything beyond 4-B. You can say other stuff about Pre-Crisis as he's definitely 2-C and makes his Post-Crisis self look like an insect. And Post-Flashpoint is 2-A via a very specific power up + prep time. But his main power levels are also just barely 4-B and his most consistent showing besides the scaling from Post-Crisis was actually 5-A.
@Everyone, anyway, this is completely off topic and we really son;t need drama between staff as we all ready have too much of that.
He isn't "Being biased" Antvasima actually loves Superman as a character, and so does Matt. However, Post-Crisis Superheroes simply have no feats beyond 4-B that are actually "Concrete" per-say.
He also isn't "Middling", 4-B is actually pretty generous because those are his "Highest concrete feats". Those are his only pure test to the limit feats that aren't dependent on outside help or involves characters throwing the challenge for him. Superman is just the Krillin if Spectre and Dr. Manhattan are the Gokus and Beerus's. Superman also doesn't have an official power level rating that puts him anywhere near the cosmic beings. And actually, there is an official word of god from DC Comics.
Superman's powers have fluctuated over the years, but he has never had infinite strength. He has never even come close to the likes of the Spectre or other magical beings. There have always been weights he can't lift, enemies he cannot outrun, and he can be killed by enough 3-dimensional force alone.
Doomsday, has not feats beyond Tier 4 and he's stronger than Superman. Martain Manhunter has no feats being Tier 4 and he's stronger than Superman. And even plenty of characters much stronger than Superman peak at Tier 4. Lobo required all his might to move a star and that's his best feat, and this is the same guy who's strong enough to "Rip Superman's arms off."
Anyway, you'll only succeed in unearthing 6 years worth of debunked claims by even attempting to upgrade Post-Crisis to anything beyond 4-B. You can say other stuff about Pre-Crisis as he's definitely 2-C and makes his Post-Crisis self look like an insect. And Post-Flashpoint is 2-A via a very specific power up + prep time. But his main power levels are also just barely 4-B and his most consistent showing besides the scaling from Post-Crisis was actually 5-A.
@Everyone, anyway, this is completely off topic and we really son;t need drama between staff as we all ready have too much of that.
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Well, I think antimatter feat is 2-A, because if flash only needed to destroy it's components, he would have just punched it.
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You can back up the thread here:
https://archive.org/web/
Threads can be updated with later backups if more posts are made in them. Just use the "Save Page Now" function.
https://archive.org/web/
Threads can be updated with later backups if more posts are made in them. Just use the "Save Page Now" function.
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I love the classic DC and Marvel characters that I grew up with, yes, especially the post-Crisis Superman. I just despise the people who have kidnapped, distorted and mutilated them to use them as spokespieces for their personal political propaganda.
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@Zark. Not denying that, but they definitely take backseats to telling good stories. Should Azula hav murdered Katara quickly because even without the comet boost she's severely superior to her? Should Roshi have been made irrelevant because of DB's power creep? Arceus should've erased Gold from existence. Connie should have no place on the battlefield in Steven Universe. I can go further and further with this.
Yes. Anti feats exist. I said before you even showed up that if you took the average of every character's feats, you'll get something closer to the city block range than you'll ever get to planetary, let alone solar system. And that's the case for every franchise. I've brought examples before with JRPGs.
SCP isn't even an official verse. Don't compare something that spawned form 4chan with billion dollar companies. They're false equivalencies, even in this context.
First, I didn't say 3-A. 3-A isn't in tier 2. And it's a far better option than what we have right now, let alone the mountain-country level you're suggesting. If you wanted to rate the average of these characters, then give me building level Superman. Because he has more instances of urban level fights than he does cosmic level fights. But we both know how that'll go down if you attempt that.
Firstly, where did I say I disagreed with the things that got accepted. All I said is that they were complex but people didn't bat an eye. Secondly, I won't. Because they don't need to be revised. This does.
Yes. Anti feats exist. I said before you even showed up that if you took the average of every character's feats, you'll get something closer to the city block range than you'll ever get to planetary, let alone solar system. And that's the case for every franchise. I've brought examples before with JRPGs.
SCP isn't even an official verse. Don't compare something that spawned form 4chan with billion dollar companies. They're false equivalencies, even in this context.
First, I didn't say 3-A. 3-A isn't in tier 2. And it's a far better option than what we have right now, let alone the mountain-country level you're suggesting. If you wanted to rate the average of these characters, then give me building level Superman. Because he has more instances of urban level fights than he does cosmic level fights. But we both know how that'll go down if you attempt that.
Firstly, where did I say I disagreed with the things that got accepted. All I said is that they were complex but people didn't bat an eye. Secondly, I won't. Because they don't need to be revised. This does.
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Trust me. I get that. Luckily DC is better than Marvel in that regard (I like DC more), but not innocent either.Antvasima said:
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Thanks. I appreciate it.
DC was mostly fine for a lot longer, thanks to Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, and others, but then Dan Didiot brought in Tom King and Brian Bendis, and the latter brought in several of the writing buddies that wrecked Marvel, so currently I have mourned the passing of my old friends who are never coming back again, and enjoy One Piece instead. That series actually gets that the big issue is that heroes should fight for freedom and against tyranny, not for tyranny as dictated by the terms of a cabal of writers.
DC was mostly fine for a lot longer, thanks to Geoff Johns, Grant Morrison, and others, but then Dan Didiot brought in Tom King and Brian Bendis, and the latter brought in several of the writing buddies that wrecked Marvel, so currently I have mourned the passing of my old friends who are never coming back again, and enjoy One Piece instead. That series actually gets that the big issue is that heroes should fight for freedom and against tyranny, not for tyranny as dictated by the terms of a cabal of writers.
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@Ant.
I never knew you read One Piece
I never knew you read One Piece
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Antvasima, this isn't about the pre crisis flash, but what did you mean by this?Antvasima said:
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I have explained it previously. See here if you want information:
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4277991
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4284199
Anyway, we are derailing, and should return to the main topic.
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4277991
https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/4284199
Anyway, we are derailing, and should return to the main topic.
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https://vsbattles.com/vsbattles/3515566?file=5350520-5994641617-Y3fdY.jpg Does this give flash any kind of Regenerationn.
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High-Mid?
