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Fixing outdated Pokemon Trainers

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I'm not very familiar with Pokemon these days, so I'll have to trust someone else's opinion. However, I can change the statistics when it's agreed upon and I know what calc/information I'm scaling to.
 
Bump.

Meanwhile, I'll give my opinion.
I think that they should stay at "at least 7-A", because levels are game mechanics and even if they have a stronger team, they should still be at most around the level of the Elite 4, which we agreed being in that tier.
 
I'm not going to pretend to understand the scaling for Pokemon these days, though if any Pkmn Spec characters were affected, I could help there.
 
What do you mean with Pkmn spec?

Anyway, the scaling is very simple here.

Trainers with fully evolved Pokemon below champion-level (strong trainers, high level gym leaders, team bosses, elite four...) = At least 7-A

Trainers around or above champion-level (champions, special trainers, end game protagonists...) = High 7-A

Trainers with Mega/Gigantamax = High 7-A with Mega/Gigantamax name of the Pokemon or just "Higher with" if they already are High 7-A

The problem here is where to fit the gym leaders that possess stronger teams in games like Gold and Silver (post game) or Black and White 2 (World Tournament), Frontier Brains (Anabel and Palmer) and people who can challenge the player after they became champions (Zinnia, Ryuk, title defense trainers etc..).

The reasons for them being above champion level is either because of the levels of their Pokemon (higher than those of the champion of the game) or because they challenged the player after they became champions.

Personally I think that they should still be below champion level, mainly because the levels are game mechanics, challenging the player doesn't mean being totally comparable (especially if their purpose is being defeated and we don't do the same for people like AZ) and because the gym leaders shouldn't be above the Elite Four anyway, even if they have a team stronger than that they use in the early game.

I can still make a stretch for the frontier brains, since they are especially powerful trainers, but normally the champions are particularly strong and it doesn't make sense for a lot of other people to just to reach that level for no reason from a day to another, when at most they surpass the elite four.
 
With Adventures the principle is the same, judging if the characters are below or above the champion's counterparts.
If they challenged the protagonist after it became or surpassed the champion, then we should evaluate the outcome of the battle and other factors, a much more simple thing to do in the manga.
If they have Mega or Gigamax pokemon (the latter in the future series, I guess) they receive the treatement explained above for these cases.
 
It might be helpful if we go through a list of Gym Leaders and other trainers and determine if they're strong enough to deserve a High 7-A tiering.
 
Almost all of them are high 7-A because they faced the player after that they became champion, but I will not accept that even Brock in Kanto is superior to champion Lance in Johto.
Also, if I remember correctly, Black and White 2 make a distinction between gym leaders and champions in the world tournament, another evidence of the latter being superior.
The same for all the characters that attempt to challenge you in the title defense of Sun and Moon or the battle tree.

Those who should genuinely scale, imho, are Blue, possibly Giovanni and Piers, the latter for having almost defeated Raihan, who's comparable to champions of other regions.

Dahlia and Palmer's profile state that both are superior to Cynthia, it would be nice to see where does this comes from, if it's not an assumption based on levels and post-game reasons (which affect even Anabel)
 
If the changes of the Pokemon themselves have already been adjusted, then the trainers should follow suit since their stats are mainly from the Pokemon they use.
 
Yes, the Pokemon are fine, for the moment, it's about the scaling now.
 
If my likely redundant & perhaps presumptuous intrusion can be forgiven....

I've often assumed most Gym Leaders are roughly comparable with one another, & then the Elite Four are successively stronger, with the Champions as the strongest.

If my memory serves, the Johto game post-games don't have/intend for you to fight Kanto's Gym Leaders in the same order as Kanto games do.
At the very least, Blaine's Gym isn't accessible until after other events, & Brock's is also similarly restricted, as is Blue.
So it seems there is some developer-intended order to those Gyms. I'm not sure if it has any meaning to be derived regarding how they rank up in terms of power, though. May be worth reviewing what hinders you battling them.

Similarly, B2/W2 also has Drayden as the 7th instead of the 8th... but I'm not sure why, being not too familiar with Gen 5. For all I know, it could be he got worn out in the time gap.

In any case, I'd assume the Gym Leaders are roughly comparable to one another, in spite of their order, given how side material treats them. Especially with Brock being one of the strongest in the Johto Games's post-game.
The Elite Four are stronger still, going in order, then Champions.

For further distinguishing their capabilities, it may be worthwhile to get some scans of their dialogue from the games to see if there's anything to be said.

Trainers who challenge the Champion are above Elite Four level, & possibly comparable to the region's previous Champion(s) & the player character, I'd assume.
We don't know if those Champion title contenders actually COULD have taken the Champions, & unless we know the size of the gap between E4 & Champion, we don't know that beating the E4 is enough.
For how comparable or inferior they are, we should get scans of their dialogue, I think.

& likewise, we should also get scans of the Frontier Brains' dialogue.
 
I've been through all the useful dialogues, here what it turned out:

  • I hate you Imaginym :v
  • Kanto Gym leaders in second gen. (Original and remake): They more or less say the same things in both versions. All of them don't seem to recognize you as a champion. Misty and Blue recognize that you obtained all the gym badges of Johto. Janine, in the remakes, knows that you have beaten an elite four (Her father Koga) and that she isn't at his level. Sabrina foreshadows that you will become a great champion in the future. Only Oak in the remakes (not sure if also in the originals) mentions that you are Johto's champion. And all of the gym leaders spend words about how exceptionally strong you are compared to them. These should all be evidences of them not being at your level, and not even on par with a regional champion. It also worthy to notice that even regular trainers in Kanto have pokemon whose level are higher than those of Lance and the elite four, but that doesn't make all of them stronger than the champion. An interesting thing is that Blue talks about how he was a champion before Red's arrival, this should be enough to place him (in that key) around champion level.
  • Frontier Brains: Not one of them makes mention of their strength compared to Cynthia or other champions. The only evidence is that they challenge you after you became champion, but the same is done by many other regular trainers in the post game. Interesting to note, Caitlin is one of them (Darach fights in her behalf) and she is also an elite four in the Unova region. That said, I think it's safe to say that they should be around the elite four level, and not surpass the champion (even because they are supposed to lose to you). Maybe Palmer, Brandon and maybe others can be considered superior to other frontier brains, but they still remain in that tier.
  • Champion Title Challengers: All of them say how you are stronger than them and similar things. They are indeed stronger than the Elite Four, but still can't match the champion, therefore shouldn't be comparable to it. Kukui might be the only exception, since he was the previous champion.
  • Battle Tree Special Trainers: Same as before. No dialogue makes any mention, they just lose to you. Blue and Red also hold the title of Battle Legends, and no one else does, this should be enough to put them over the other challengers and no other (save for the player) should scale to them. They shouldn't scale to Cynthia as well, otherwise they would all be champion level just for being in the same row of challengers.
  • World Tournament: Just a lot of pointless lines: Gym leaders and Champions are also in different leagues, this should be enough to establish the difference between them.
Final tally: Everyone is around Elite Four level or less but not Blue (Gym leader key) and likely Kukui for being the previous champion.

Challenging and losing to someone, just to comment how strong it was, isn't proof of being totally comparable to it and at the same level.
 
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SamanPatou said:
I've been through all the useful dialogues, here what it turned out:
Click to expand...
Thank you very much.
SamanPatou said:
  • I hate you Imaginym :v
Click to expand...
D: Sorry! Seriously, I kinda feel bad about having requested what I did now. (Not that feeling sorry can undo you spending that effort.)
SamanPatou said:
  • Kanto Gym leaders in second gen. (Original and remake): They more or less say the same things in both versions. All of them don't seem to recognize you as a champion. Misty and Blue recognize that you obtained all the gym badges of Johto. Janine, in the remakes, knows that you beat an elite four (Her father Koga) and that she isn't at his level. Sabrina foreshadows that you will become a great champion in the future. Only Oak in the remakes (not sure if also in the originals) mentions that you are Johto's champion. And all of the gym leaders spend words about how exceptionally strong you are compared to them. These should all be evidences of them not being at your level, and not even on par with a regional champion. It also worthy to notice that even regular trainers in Kanto have pokemon whose level are higher than those of Lance and the elite four, but that doesn't make all of them stronger than the champion. An interesting thing is that Blue talks about how he was a champion before Red's arrival, this should be enough to place him (in that key) around champion level.
  • Frontier Brains: Not one of them makes mention of their strength compared to Cynthia or other champions. The only evidence is that they challenger you after you became champion, but the same is done by many other regular trainers in the post game. Interesting to note, Caitlin is one of them (Darach fights in her behalf) and she is also an elite four in the Unova region. That said, I think it's safe to say that they should be around the elite four level, and not surpass the champion (even because they are supposed to lose to you). Maybe Palmer, Brandon and maybe others can be considered superior to other frontier brains, but they still remain in that tier.
  • Champion Title Challengers: All of them say how you are stronger than them and similar things. They are indeed stronger than the Elite Four, but still can't match the champion, therefore shouldn't be comparable to it. Kukui might be the only exception, since he was the previous champion.
  • Battle Tree Special Trainers: Same as before. No dialogue makes any mention, they just lose to you. Blue and Red also hold the title of Battle Legends, and no one else does, this should be enough to put them over the other challengers and no other (save for the player) should scale to them. They shouldn't scale to Cynthia as well, otherwise they would all be champion level just for being in the same row of challengers.
  • World Tournament: Just a lot of pointless lines: Gym leaders and Champions are also in different leagues, this should be enough to establish the difference between them.
Final tally: Everyone is around Elite Four level or less but not Blue (Gym leader key) and likely Kukui for being the previous champion.

Challenging and losing to someone, just to comment how strong it was, isn't proof of being totally comparable to it and at the same level.
Click to expand...
I deeply appreciate the comprehensiveness & thoroughness. I feel it should be mentioned though that if the Champions say the protagonist is stronger, then it may be possible the Champion Title Challengers are at Champion Level.
But I guess it's still a bit vague.

Still, I'd like to think this will help make a foundation to organize this system, so thank you again.
(I personally haven't looked over the scans yet, but I value the opportunity to do so in the future. Although I'm unsure it's super important that I review them.)

So, shouldn't Blue still be Champion Level if he was only dethroned because Red beat him?
Also, I'm uninformed about them: Why should Palmer & Brandon be distinct in their ranking? Do they have notable feats or such?
 
Don't worry, I'm joking, it was interesting for me and it took me not even 20 minutes and it is indeed useful.
You also did the right thing, questioning and demanding for clarification and deeper analysis.

Could you elaborate more the part regarding the champions? Because I'm not sure if I got it right.

Regarding the rest, bear in mind that the champion title challengers are only in the Alola region, where the league was established during the game and Kukui self-proclaimed champion before being defeated by the protagonist. All of them also say how the player is above them and use different ways to express that, so they are indeed above the Elite 4 but also under the champion. It also should be noted that they aren't necessarily all comparable between each other just because they are challenging you, just as the battle tree trainer aren't. There's also the fact that not all champions in every region are even, Lance for example should still be inferior to Blue and Raihan is stated to be a potential champion in another region, despite being a gym leader.

The champion or above tier should be more a guiding line, but at the same time we shouldn't allow anyone in that tier, even because it is obtained by pure upscaling and not raw calcs.
And, I mean, we know that Leon in Galar has an undefeated win streak and I suppose that other trainers have reached the champion in every region, just to lose at it. That's why there is the distinction between Gym leaders, Elite four and champion, but just being above one of the categories doesn't make you a member of the next one. The champion is supposed to be the best in the region, with few exceptions for those who defeated one but didn't keep the "job" (Like Red and others).
i.e. to me it's perfectly possible to be the strongest gym leader but not at the level of the E4, just like being superior to them doesn't make you even to the champion.
And the player is almost always supposed to be stronger than the trainer it is facing in each point of the story at different degrees, so scaling other characters to it shouldn't be done with ease.
At the same time we should be careful in considering things in the "post-game", because not everything can be immediately available for sheer gaming reasons and the trainers get stronger as a natural evolution of the game, but it doesn't mean that twenty thousand trainers suddenly became superior to the champion.
 
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SamanPatou said:
Don't worry, I'm joking, it was interesting for me and it took me not even 20 minutes and it is indeed useful.
You also did the right thing, questioning and demanding for clarification and deeper analysis.
Click to expand...
Yay!
SamanPatou said:
Could you elaborate more the part regarding the champions? Because I'm not sure if I got it right.
Click to expand...
I'm sure a lot of our exchanges of recent have concerned Champions. Which part specifically, please?
SamanPatou said:
Regarding the rest, bear in mind that the champion title challengers are only in the Alola region, where the league was established during the game and Kukui self-proclaimed champion before being defeated by the protagonist. All of them also say how the player is above them and use different ways to express that, so they are indeed above the Elite 4 but also under the champion. It also should be noted that they aren't necessarily all comparable between each other just because they are challenging you, just as the battle tree trainer aren't. There's also the fact that not all champions in every region are even, Lance for example should still be inferior to Blue and Raihan is stated to be a potential champion in another region, despite being a gym leader.
Click to expand...
If the player is so far above Champion Kukui & the Elite 4, & the Challengers are also above the E4, isn't it theoretical the gap from E4 to Player Character is large enough that a Challenger can still be far enough above the E4 to have Challenged Kukui & won but not strong enough to have beaten the Player Character?
SamanPatou said:
The champion or above tier should be more a guiding line, but at the same time we shouldn't allow anyone in that tier, even because it is obtained by pure upscaling and not raw calcs.
And, I mean, we know that Leon in Galar has an undefeated win streak and I suppose that other trainers have reached the champion in every region, just to lose at it. That's why there is the distinction between Gym leaders, Elite four and champion, but just being above one of the categories doesn't make you a member of the next one. The champion is supposed to be the best in the region, with few exceptions for those who defeated one but didn't keep the "job" (Like Red and others).
Click to expand...
"and I suppose that other trainers have reached the champion in every region, just to lose at it. That's why there is the distinction between Gym leaders, Elite four and champion, but just being above one of the categories doesn't make you a member of the next one."
A power level rating only applied if you can keep the job, even if you meet the requirements & but if someone even MORE qualified comes along, you don't qualify?
Bob scores a 100 on his test & gets the job. Champion.
Bill scores a 110 on his test, & gets Bob's position as Champion. Bob is now deemed "never qualified in the first place"?
 
Imaginym said:
I feel it should be mentioned though that if the Champions say the protagonist is stronger, then it may be possible the Champion Title Challengers are at Champion Level.
Click to expand...
This was the point I didn't quite get.

Imaginym said:
If the player is so far above Champion Kukui & the Elite 4, & the Challengers are also above the E4, isn't it theoretical the gap from E4 to Player Character is large enough that a Challenger can still be far enough above the E4 to have Challenged Kukui & won but not strong enough to have beaten the Player Character?
Click to expand...
The challengers didn't face Kukui, though. When Kukui got dethroned he had to beat the E4 just like all the others in order to face the player.
My point was that Kukui in the first place could have not been at the same level of other regions' champion, because he authomatically became champion after founding the league and chosing the elite 4 (and supposedly proving to be above them).
It wasn't so strange to me even because Swoshi confirmed that champions from different regions aren't necessarily on par.
And my point is still a maybe, I'm fine with considering him at that level.

Imaginym said:
If the player is so far above Champion Kukui & the Elite 4, & the Challengers are also above the E4, isn't it theoretical the gap from E4 to Player Character is large enough that a Challenger can still be far enough above the E4 to have Challenged Kukui & won but not strong enough to have beaten the Player Character?
Click to expand...
I'm saying the exact opposite thing, sorry if I wasn't clear.
That's the reason for which I think that former champions are still champion level, even if they don't have the job (Alder Lance, for example). Blue should still be at that level exactly because he is still above Lance, and so are, Red, N, etc...
Raihan also qualifies for that tier for the statement of him being a potential champion elsewhere, and Piers too because he almost defeated won against him, and it was stated to be a very close battle (Piers didn't even use the dynamax, while Raihan probably did).
To me the requirement should be having defeated the champion or having been one in the past. To me, just challenging a champion (or the player in the post-game), losing and saying how strong it was isn't enough to be placed at that level.

And my point regarding the trainers was that it's likely that over the course of the history some trainers went over the E4, faced the champion and lost. That doesn't make them champion level. I was saying that there's a distinction between E4 and Champion just to point that being superior to the first isn't enough, you have to prove yourself superior to the champion to have the crown. And the fact that the champion belongs to another category kinda proves that he is both superior to the E4 and even a step further.
 
SamanPatou said:
To me the requirement should be having defeated the champion or having been one in the past. To me, just challenging a champion (or the player in the post-game), losing and saying how strong it was isn't enough to be placed at that level.
Click to expand...
....& also that the game with trainers who do beat the E4 to Challenge your title as Champion are from a game where the first Champ didn't do so himself? & that beating the E4 isn't enough to be Champion level?
SamanPatou said:
And my point regarding the trainers was that it's likely that over the course of the history some trainers went over the E4, faced the champion and lost. That doesn't make them champion level. I was saying that there's a distinction between E4 and Champion just to point that being superior to the first isn't enough, you have to prove yourself superior to the champion to have the crown. And the fact that the champion belongs to another category kinda proves that he is both superior to the E4 and even a step further.
Click to expand...
Even though in the absence of another Champion, beating an E4 would be sufficient to achieve the title?

Nonetheless, I think I kinda follow your logic, so I suppose I'm fine with it.
 
@Imaginym

Alola's case is kinda weird, that's why I said that Kukui might be or not on par with champions of other regions, but he should indeed be superior to Alola's E4.
The fact that he became champion for beating the E4 might be due to the fact that the league was founded very recently, and he didn't keep the throne for long, since the player defeated him and likely has never lost it against any challenger.
Anyway, I think that everyone who surpasses the E4, either being a title challenger from S&M or one of the many unknown trainers who did it in Pokemon's history , has to prove itself against the champion, that stands at the top exactly to represent the final wall that a trainer has to surpass, because beating the E4 isn't enough.

And we don't have to forgot that most of the things come down to skill and a raw power gap that shouldn't be impossible to fill, since "final stage" Pokemon at max power are already borderline High 7-A, this tier jump is exclusive to particularly strong ones (i.e. those belonging to special trainers like champions) or those who power up through Megas, Gigamax or Z-Power, and these still aren't impossible to beat for normal Pokemon, with the right mix of strategy and type combination.
 
I suppose strong trainers can keep their stats. I think the champions and debatably, the Elite can keep theirs. We may need to discuss about other trainer classes such as the Frontier Trainers and other post game ones, as well as, the CEOs of organizations (N did beat Alder if I recall correctly).
 
Dino_Ranger_Black said:
I suppose strong trainers can keep their stats. I think the champions and debatably, the Elite can keep theirs. We may need to discuss about other trainer classes such as the Frontier Trainers and other post game ones, as well as, the CEOs of organizations (N did beat Alder if I recall correctly).
Click to expand...
@SamanPatou Didn't you go over some or all of those kinds of trainers?
 
Yes, I went over those trainers, mostly comparing them to the champions, following GyroNutz's suggestion.

If we extend the High 7-A to the Elite Four, then it will include even the Frontier Brains, the Champion Title Challengers and likely the Battle Tree trainers.
The gym leaders, as established, are below the Elite Four even in the World Tournament and in Johto's post game, so they stay in normal 7-A.
For other trainers the question is a bit different, like for Zinnia or those rivals that challenge you right before the Elite Four, they may as may not be included in the High 7-A.

The Team Leaders are extremely variable, since they challenge you in different moments of the story in each game.
Giovanni, the Rocket Leaders (Like Archer), Maxie, Ivan, Cyrus, Lysandre and Guzma are still below the Elite Four.
N and Ghetsis should be still above the E4, the former also had defeated Alder.
Lusamine had her Pokemon enhanced by the Ultra Energy in the first battle and in the second she was already stronger than the E4, due to being a Champion Title Challenger (This last thing also applies to Guzma).
Keep in mind that the Team Leaders from the Rainbow Rocket episode are a different thing.

Basically all comes down to if we set the High 7-A at Champion level or Elite Four level.
I'm not sure how debatable this can be, outside of assumptions and feelings.
Let's put it in this way:
High 7-A = Champion level = What I said in the previous posts
High 7-A = Elite Four = What I said in this post
 
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Dino_Ranger_Black said:
I suppose strong trainers can keep their stats. I think the champions and debatably, the Elite can keep theirs. We may need to discuss about other trainer classes such as the Frontier Trainers and other post game ones, as well as, the CEOs of organizations (N did beat Alder if I recall correctly).
Click to expand...
Given what @SamanPatou has summarized above, do you have any input you wish to provide?
 
I don't think so. Everything he said makes sense to me. I suppose High 7-A can be limited to the Champions and Elite, with a few other trainers for special reasons such as N and Ghetsis.
 
Just apply the changes, but I want to point out a couple of things.
Gyro wanted to put the High 7-A at champions level, while Dino Black thinks that Elite Four level should be included too, so I'd like to hear Gyro's opinion on that (and maybe that of other staff members if both Gyro and Dino keep their stances, which is fine anyway, they don't necessarily need to agree with each other).

Also, Giovanni is still portrayed as being in the league of the last Gym Leaders, even in the World Tournament of BW2.
Including him in the High 7-A would influence other final gym leaders and very likely other Team Leaders that are usually around his level at the respective point of their story.

Rainbow Rocket Giovanni has a key of his own, it's fine to add the High 7-A for most of his team (If we count those Pokemon as at least round the level of those owned by the E4) next to the 5-B, which is given only by Mewtwo. (The same should be made for all the team leaders of the Rainbow Rocket, I guess)
 
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