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Fix Verse Equalization

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screeching in disagreement with the op

For real though, this has been debated so much and it has been rejected every single time. But lets just say the OP (and everyone who agrees with him) was right with how he explained the connection between (in my coming example) AP and soul manip/resistance. Why would we care where their soul manip/resistance comes from and how it connects to AP/the ammount of energy you can throw around?

Just to give two examples.

1. A verse with a bunch of characters that can use soul manip and have soul resistance, however, they dont have any shonenesk energy. They do however have fodder and strong people in the verse and your ability does indeed grow with your physical strength. If you were to make these characters fight against a DB or Naruto character, they would be able to properly use their abilities since there is no energy to equalize.

2. Bleach character have a shonenesk energy and if you were to make them fight DB or Naruto characters they wouldnt be able to use their abilities to their fullest for no other reason than "Their power comes from their energy, thus it is equalized".

How is that fair in any way? Why should characters that get abilities from their energy get a disadvantage compared to characters with the same ability, who dont have an energy, when fighting another character with some sort of energy, for no other reason than "they have energy"?
 
Also, Imade only supports the issue against your position. He already admits that it's "weaker soul vs stronger soul"— and not just by the metrics of Soul Hax vs Soul resistance, but going by the importance of Reiryoku and Reiatsu, it actually heavily implies that it's more AP and Spirit Energy based since Reiatsu and Reiryoku go with those concepts.
 
Honestly, I don't think you should assume they have the same type of energy just so they can interact, or else you could end up with stuff like "Goku can atomize because equalization makes so Ki = Cosmo", or "Goku has a Stand because equalization makes so Ki = Stand", or "Goku is a Jedi because equalization makes so Ki = The Force", I don't think you can't really generalize everything like that.

Maybe the verse has a weakness where it doesn't work against Aura users, so the other character can resist it without having to have the same type of energy, so he doesn't get any new abilities, or something like that. It would be more of a weakness to the other character than a resistance, maybe that could work?

Idk.
 
Amexim said:
Also, Imade only supports the issue against your position. He already admits that it's "weaker soul vs stronger soul"— and not just by the metrics of Soul Hax vs Soul resistance, but going by the importance of Reiryoku and Reiatsu, it actually heavily implies that it's more AP and Spirit Energy based since Reiatsu and Reiryoku go with those concepts.
Click to expand...
You misunderstood what he was saying.
 
Just to be sure I understand the resoning behind all of this, if you break it down the argument should be something like:

"A strong character has stronger abilities than a weaker character (go figure), thus characters from other verses that have similar Ap should get resistance to that ability, because they both use energy, while one does grant said ability in verse, while the other one doesnt"

I am sorry, but if thats what it is, I fail to see the reasoning behing it. What would make anyone think that its fine to just grant resistances based on this? Besides, if the enrgies rly were all that equal, we wouldnt be in this situation, since every energy would have the same abilities/resistances to begin with.
 
Because in Bleach, a strong soul has High Reiryoku, which is literally Spiritual Power/Spiritual Energy. It's Chi. Oh lord.

And Paulo, that's case by case basis my friend.

And that other guy.

The 2nd Scenario is a mistespresentation. For one, the rules for whether or not Reiatsu Crushing specifically happens is being weaker than the Bleach Character in terms of AP. Naruto characters that are weaker than Bleach characters by a significant margin (whatever that is), die to Reiatsu Crush because it would work on them.

The reason we care about the connection to AP is specific to Bleach in the first place. The fact that you're attempting to put a cylinder into a Star hole with that Soul Manip example is what kills you. We're talking about Reiatsu Crush specifically not being viable, not all Bleach character's powers not working. The fact is, with Reiatsu, the only thing that we're doing is making it function the same as it would with others in their verse. If they would reiatsu Crush a character that would be crushed AP wise in the Bleach Verse, then they would get crushed like that.

On top of that, them having a power that the others don't is Just then having a power the others don't and having an advantage in that match up. That's like calling a person who has electricity resistance unfair compared to others. Even then, I disagree with the way you're trying to reframe this.
 
It is not granting resistances. It's preserving a weakness of the power. It wouldn't work based on AP.
 
@Sigurd

I think he misunderstood what he's saying because he exactly supports my argument. Like it or not.
 
Problem is that the basis that being spiritual energy is enough to let you resist is flawed. DB's Ki was stated to be "an energy inside of every living being", nothing related to souls (if I'm wrong please correct me, long time since I read DB), so there's no correlation between Reiatsu and Ki just because both are classified as Spiritual Energy (latter case isn't, I guess).
 
Because You still don't get it, if reiatsu only affect you physically you will be correct, but they are not, we have several statement of them can affect the soul, hence it counted as hax. They only work on weaker being because everyone in bleach with higher reiatsu have resiatance to soul hax, and they get that resiatance via tanking other form of soul hax in bleach that not invole reiatsu crust.
 
This weakness you're talking about doesn't exist, you seem to think because their soul grants them everything including their AP it also means that someone else from another verse would be just the same via AP alone. You're trying to bypass the need for resistances to their abilities via AP scaling but you're completely ignoring everything else.
 
Afaik, the only effect that relies on "power" is the direct combat aspect/powernull. I.e: Soi Fong getting lolnoped by Aizen, Ichigo not cutting Zaraki, ...

"A battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu"
 
Ki and Reishi are completely different.

In Bleach all living and non living thing has a soul even if a little. even the very atoms have a bit of soul. This was all explained in the Fullbringer arc and is how they use their abilities. via manipulating the soul of whatever it is they're focusing o.

Do chairs in DB have souls?
 
For one, Ki/Chi is typically associated with Spiritual Energy overall. Ki literally translates to "Spirit". The connection between the Daoist concept and spiritualism is totally obvious, it's not something that's uncommon when associated, and even when you explain it from the perspective of Bleach, you'd call it some kind of Spiritual Energy.

Regardless, Ki is comprised of 3 parts. Vigor, Courage, and Mind. Spiritual Power or Reiryoku is a measure of willpower and spiritual sensitivity. Willpower. Courage. They're very closely connected. Again, Ki is literally "Spirit" Energy.
 
Yet they are not, the kind of passive powers that energy itself give to you is already different, same for how they work, you not randomly can see invisible ghost or can interact with them via having KI, they only follow the same idea but not entirely the same energy.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
@IMade The suggestion does not seem to be about soul resistance being randomly given. It is about the ability having a weakness in the form of a caveat that makes it so it does not need to be resisted.
Click to expand...
That would be untrue then. Reiryoku is Spiritual Energy which grants the user several abilities and a resistance.

1) Soul Resistance:

  • Example: A character sucks out the souls from a tow, regular people (who have little to no Reiryoku) had their souls sucked out, Tatsuki (a character who has little Reiryoku, enough to perceive the supernatural but not enough to have supernatural abilities) is incapacitated by the ability with her soul intact and characters like Chad and Orihime (who have a notable amount of Reiryoku to the point they have supernatural abilities) are unaffected by the ability.
  • Verse/Energy Equalization does not grant you this.
2) Supernatural Senses:

  • Those with a notable amount of Reiryoku can see the supernatural.
  • Regular people with little to no Reiryoku can not see the supernatural.
  • Verse/Energy Equalization does not grant you this.
3) Extra Senses (Called Reiraku and Reikaku in Bleach):

  • Reikaku, an ability to sense via another's Reiatsu as opposed to Reiraku which senses Reiryoku.
  • Verse/Energy Equalization does not grant you this.
4) Reiatsu (Which has Several Abilities in Bleach):



Equalizing energy does not grant you the abilities of the equalized energy nor the resistances of the equalized energy because at that point you have changed the powers of the character and the match is no longer accurate. We have had a thread involving stuff discussing Reiatsu Crush and Energy Equalization as well and it was agreed that Reiatsu Crush's soul manipulation does not get equalized nor resisted because Reiatsu Crush is an ability, a soul manipulation ability and you need resistace to it to resist it just like any other ability.
 
You can't be further from the truth, reiryoku is energy from the soul and depending on the japanese kanji it can several things.

It has nothing to do with courage, vigor, nor the mind at all.
 
That statement of "Soul Crushing" isn't enough for that to be irrefutable. You can chop that up to the nature of Bleach combat being Spirit vs Spirit and Soul vs Soul, rather than it being literally what you think. The statement you're giving me by itself is too weak in the face of everything else. We would have statements or clarifications akin to Zaraki explaining how Reiatsu works when it comes to soul manipulation. Some in depth or specific explanation about the soul manipulation, rather than every statement using the language of "strength" including your "soul crushing" statement would be helpful. But it seems like you're taking that quote to imply things.
 
@Amexim Are you saying "because they are somewhat similar and because that one word translates into something the other thing is, its fine to grant resistances"?

and dont give me the "its not granting abilities, its preserving a weakness", since thats effectively still granting a resistance.

Thats like saying Alucard (Hellsing), Alucard (Castlevania) and Alucard (Rosario + Vampire) should scale to each other because they have the same name and are all vampires. I mean, yes sure, they are vampires and share the same name, but that doesnt mean they are (even remotely) the same. This also goes for energies. Just because they share similar origins/names, that doesnt mean they are comparable.
 
PaChi2 said:
Afaik, the only effect that relies on "power" is the direct combat. I.e: Soi Fong getting lolnoped by Aizen, Ichigo not cutting Zaraki, ...
"A battle between shinigami is a battle of reiatsu"
Click to expand...
Oh yeah, I left this part out on accident.

This is affected by Verse Equalization since it directly relates to the amount of Reiryoku you have.

So via Verse Equalization this crossovers, it just depends on your energy amount (your AP for most verses).
 
Amexim said:
Spirit Energy. Spirit. Ki. It's literally the same thing.
Click to expand...
You can't be serious here right? I literally posted what it is and IMade above as well and somehow you tell me it's mind, courage, and vigor like ki in dragonball.

Ki = 気 = spirit; mind; heart

Rei = Ú£è = soul; spirit; departed soul; ghost

These are different things.
 
You literally explain two examples of your soul destruction stuff using the strength of their soul or whatever, which reinforces the idea, and you use PIS with Orihime and characters who should be fodder not dying to it to make it seem like it isn't AP based, when even the regular Reiatsu physical stuff should have been affecting her when it wasn't.
 
I leave to write up two pages and it just gets worse, somehow. Astounding.

@IMade Your response is very well structured and would have been very helpful if it had at all dealt with what I was talking about. Just as a side note I'd like to say I mean this very genuinely- pretty much every participant in this thread has caused it to be a shitshow of HST-thread proportions. I appreciate just one good response. That said, I never implied verse equalization spontaneously grants you abilities. What I did imply was that a caveat of an ability's weakness could be used against it if the energies equalized into each other. I know very little about Bleach and nothing about HxH so I can't be more specific than that opinion.

@Everyone Bois. Calm down.
 
You literally have the same words in the same definitions. What's worse, a Heart, Mind, Spirit, are all synonyms for Soul. These definitions overlap.
 
Actually, heart and mind aren't synonyms to soul. Mind is a person's sentience, and heart is an internal organ on the human body.

Spirit can be a synonym to soul tho.
 
Mr. Bambu said:
@IMade Your response is very well structured and would have been very helpful if it had at all dealt with what I was talking about. That said, I never implied verse equalization spontaneously grants you abilities. What I did imply was that a caveat of an ability's weakness could be used against it if the energies equalized into each other. I know very little about Bleach and nothing about HxH so I can't be more specific than that opinion.
Click to expand...
This is true, I would agree that an ability or an energy's weakness would or could be exploitable under verse/energy equalization; however, a weakness as we're implying doesn't exist for Reiryoku in Bleach.

I provided scans solely to prove that instead of just a write-up.
 
what in the world, you literally debunked yourself via Toriyama. Ki is vigor, courage, and mind all in one.

Reiryoku is neither of these things, it's energy derived from the soul. In DB if you run out of ki you literally die. in Bleach you run out of reishi and u go take a nap. You're reaching by alot dude.
 
" What's worse, a Heart, Mind, Spirit, are all synonyms for Soul. These definitions overlap."

This is just... wow. Not sure what to say. Soul manip=Mind manip=Bio manip?
 
Heart and Mind are synonyms for Soul. Consistently across many ideas concerning the Soul, emotions and consciousness— Heart and Mind are heavily associated.

And you're the one pretending like Orihime shouldn't be flattened by the "physical" Reiatsu Crush or whatever. She should be affected by a bunch of the standard shit, but she's not, and it's for the sake of plot every time. Each example of a person who would resist these so called Soul Crushing acts are all people with "stronger souls", so her surviving those things would ordinarily be attributed to AP. Orihime is not that strong. Unless every other statement and feat of people existing in the presence of strong Reiatsu because their Reiatsu is powerful is null, I don't buy this.
 
Being heavily associated is not the same thing as being a synonym. Synonym means that the words refer to either the exact same thing or nearly the same thing, not only things that are related.

Seriously tho, Androids do not have Ki, but I don't think it was ever indicated that they have no soul.
 
I still have my doubts but I can understand it from the Bleach side of things since regardless, it does in fact have to do with the soul, however HxH's version does not sit right with me at all.
 
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