Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

[Jasonsith]

Update
1. I made a sandbox for everyone to reorganize the findings about the powers and abilities into a (draft) page format

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star

vsbattles.fandom.com

(@Stefano4444 since you are quite devoted in adding the powers and abilities, you may have an extra look and slap your blog info into this draft page)

Make sure most of Kenshiro's abilities are grouped properly

2. I am currently revising the Jagi nuke feat for another mod to approve it.

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

3. I just built a reqally skeleton skeleton framework as a sandbox for everyone to actually add every notable battle for Hokuto No Ken main canon.

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

Since quite some equally knowledgeable people really insist on setting a multiplier system for powerscaling purpose and not just an addition of powers and abilities, such practice is to be handled with extreme caution. And again, fill in anything.
Insert new exlanations if necessary.

Until the scaling chains are complete and I (or another mod) give a final thumb up, I suggest refraining from making vs threads from this verse and if things get out of control just assume everyone is Jagi tier. first and then lock the pages.
Only when the multiplier system is clearly established then we can apply the changes using the new multiplier system.

Bump

And this calculation is yet to be approved

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

I apologise, but this is a 10 page long CRT. I can't justify going back through everything that has been discussed to evaluate this with any depth. I would like to request a thorough summary of the important points and arguments that are relevant to the current topic, or to otherwise be directed to one.

@DarkGrath

See the last two posts above please.

I think a new CRT may be the best idea.

Also, what do the rest of you think about this suggestion?

 

[Jasonsith]

@DarkGrath

See the last two posts above please.

Also, what do the rest of you think about this suggestion?

With the agenda already set, I think

1. the powers and abilities are mostly fine, most of them are already accepted
2. the revised Jagi nuke feat is yet to be properly evaluated
But once done, every FOTNS character scale around or above Jagi and done
3. For the setup of the multiplier system, it is a long project and likely actually needs a new CRT to monitor

What are the issues that we can already settle here and what are those that needs to be moved over to a new CRT?

 

[Antvasima]

With the agenda already set, I think

1. the powers and abilities are mostly fine, most of them are already accepted

Okay. That can probably be applied then.

2. the revised Jagi nuke feat is yet to be properly evaluated
But once done, every FOTNS character scale around or above Jagi and done

Can you try to get other calc group members to help you out with that then please?

3. For the setup of the multiplier system, it is a long project and likely actually needs a new CRT to monitor

Okay. That also seems fine then.

What are the issues that we can already settle here and what are those that needs to be moved over to a new CRT?

What do the rest of you here think about this?

 

[Stefano4444]

the powers and abilities are mostly fine, most of them are already accepted

Then we can at least upgrade the profiles.

Although unlike Kenshiro i assume all other Hokuto Shinken users (aside maybe his uncle) lack mastery over all other martial arts such as Ryuken, Sonkaken, Sokaken, Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken and Seito Gekken, correct?

 

[Jasonsith]

Then we can at least upgrade the profiles.

Although unlike Kenshiro i assume all other Hokuto Shinken users (aside maybe his uncle) lack mastery over all other martial arts such as Ryuken, Sonkaken, Sokaken, Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken and Seito Gekken, correct?

Yes.

Therefore in their respective profiles it should be clearly mentioned which branch of touki martial arts they practice.

Also Hokuto Ryuken technically has basically all of Hokuto Shinken minus Musou Tensei plus their own hax (as iirc Kaioh mentioned Hokuto Ryuken utilises attack on more pressure points than Hokuto Shinken).

And before "the big project" gets finished, everyone will be comparable to or "higher" or "far higher" than Jagi.

 

[Antvasima]

What Jasonsith has accepted here can probably be applied.

 

[Stefano4444]

Yes.

Therefore in their respective profiles it should be clearly mentioned which branch of touki martial arts they practice.

Also Hokuto Ryuken technically has basically all of Hokuto Shinken minus Musou Tensei plus their own hax (as iirc Kaioh mentioned Hokuto Ryuken utilises attack on more pressure points than Hokuto Shinken).

And before "the big project" gets finished, everyone will be comparable to or "higher" or "far higher" than Jagi.

Kenshiro:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Was able to stand up and fight Kaioh while in coma and unable to move his body, and was also able to overcome the vital point that Toki pressed which immobilizes one's body through sheer willpower), Social Influencing (Ken inspired Lin and multiple people to fight. Raiga and Fuga immediately placed all their trust in Ken. Shu sacrificed his own eyesight to save Kenshiro, despite the fact he had just met him. Ryuga who was loyal to Raoh, belived in Kenshiro by the end of his life. Even after Shachi turned into a monster Ken was able to completely change Shachi's heart to the point that Shachi would risk everything to protect him), Limited Sound Manipulation (Kenshiro is stated to be able to mimic many sounds, including animal cries), Photographic Memory (Stated to be capable of memorizing up to 50,000 words after reading them once. Comparable to Kasumi who demonstrated this), Master of Hokuto Shinken, Ryuken, Sonkaken, Sokaken, Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken and Seito Gekken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Intelligence: Genius in daily aspects; Extraordinary Genius in regards to combat (Kenshiro stands as one of the most skilled fighter in his setting, likely comparable to all his predecessors and having absolute mastery over every single martial art displayed throughout the series. He has uncanny precision, to the point of being able to strike a pressure point as small as the tip of a pin with a strand of hair. His memory is refined to the point that he's able to memorize up to 50,000 words after reading them once. His technique and grace are unrivaled. He's capable of mastering an opponent's martial art after seeing it once, to the point where he can simply nullify its effects and see right through it. He can copy and adapt to incredibly complex techniques on the fly, such as when he adapted to Anryū Tenha's space-warping ability, when he surpassed Solia's prowess in Gento Kō Ken [a martial art once deemed to be more deadly than Hokuto Shinken and with 2000 years of history], after only seeing a single move of said style or when he managed to fight Raoh to a standstill and would have killed him had he not been stopped, despite Toki stating only minutes prior that Ken didn't even have a 1% chance of defeating Raoh. He's stated to have "infinite potential" in terms of technique and combat prowess multiple times throughout the series. Scales significantly above Toki, who, with his sheer skill and talent, bent Raoh's fate and manifested his harbinger of death. Shown multiple times throughout the series to be capable of demolishing entire armies all by himself, stated by enemy soldiers to "march calmly, unstoppable, through thousands of soldiers like he was in the middle of an empty field", casually crushed both Falco's and Jakoh's armies at the same time. Even before his final fight against Raoh and achieving Muso Tensei, he was unfathomably above combatants such as the Red Berrets, who are each capable of defeating 500 soldiers at the same time, and defeated their general with his eyes closed. In that same fight, Ken states that due to the nature of Hokuto Shinken's transmission, it's like he has 1800 years worth of combat experience and training, he was an assassin from the very moment he was born. Hokuto Shinken's very nature is of one adaptability and it has infinite fighting variations in order to overcome every obstacle and opponent, no matter the difference in strength)

Resistance to Radiation Manipulation (Jagi was fine after taking a nuke, and Toki was bombarded by radiation for 2 weeks straight), Poison Manipulation (Kenshiro can endure 5 times the lethal dose of potassium cyanide. Also resists paralytic gas and is even stated to be resistant to all natural poisons), Mind Manipulation (Kenshiro easily resisted a mind control attack from Geira), Heat Manipulation and Fire Manipulation (Kasumi could barely feel fire in his body. Liu Zongwu was fine after having his whole body engulfed by flames. Kenshiro has tanked fire from a barrage of flamethrowers and caught a volcanic rock with his bare hands. Raoh was able to withstand Shuren’s flames like they’re nothing. Both Kaioh and Hyoh’s Bodies were not incinerated after being engulfed by lava), Electricity Manipulation (Kenshiro shrugged off an electricity gate that would have burned a human to a crisp. Liu Zongwu was fine after taking 1000 volts), Limited Existence Erasure (Kenshiro was able to resist Gento’s cellular erasing attacks), Pain Manipulation (Rei was able to resist a pain so unbearable that could drive a person insane or outright kill him. Jagi remained standing even after Ken put an arrow in his hypersensitive body. Shu didn't seem to feel any pain after slashing his own eyes. Falco cut off his own leg like it was nothing.)

Jagi:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Social Influencing (Manipulated Shin into defeating Kenshiro and kidnapping his fiancée Yuriaa), Master of Hokuto Shinken (Aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei), Mastery over Keiraku Hiko and Tōki

Amiba:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities

Ryuken:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Toki:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Comparable to Kenshiro. Kept healing and helping innocent people even when gravely ill), Social Influencing (Indirectly create a cult around him in Village of Miracle where he was worshipped as a messiah), Photographic Memory (Comparable to Kenshiro), Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Musō Tensei), Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Raoh:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Comparable to Kenshiro), Social Influencing (Quickly grew an army made up by loyal soldiers who are willing to die for him. Taimed his horse Kokuoh, a violent giant horse, by euthanize her fatally wounded foal which earned Kokuoh's respect), Photographic Memory (Comparable to Kenshiro), Master of Hokuto Shinken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Kaioh:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Social Influencing, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura, Tōshin no Aura, Matōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Hyoh:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura, Matōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Han:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Shachi:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Kasumi Kenshiro:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Genius Intelligence, Supernatural Willpower (Compable to his nephew), Social Influencing, Photographic Memory (Has been able to read and memorize 1000 pages of an ancient Chinese manuscript in a week as well as read through a five-book set and write them down on a notebook), Master of Hokuto Shinken, Ryuken, Sonkaken, Sokaken, Nanto Seiken, Gento Koken, Kyokujuji Seiken and Seito Gekken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Intelligence: Genius in daily aspects; Extraordinary Genius in regards to combat (Kenshiro is a university lecturer who is fluent in four different languages. As a scholar, he is well-versed in many subjects, has a photographic memory (ex. has been able to read and memorize 1000 pages of an ancient Chinese manuscript in a week as well as read through a five-book set and write them down on a notebook), and, as the 62nd successor to Hokuto Shinken, very skilled when it comes to combat and martial arts. In addition he is also knowledgeable in the ways of healing, stating that he has various techniques he can use in order to heal his body. Is a master assassin who is far above the vast majority of people in the series. Touched the Hokuto statue, which made him live through the lives of every single successor in the 1800-year history of Hokuto, effectively meaning that he has 1800 years of combat experience. Mastered Musou Tensei on a level higher than his nephew Kenshiro as he can use it unconsciously)

Liu Zongwu:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Ryuken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki, Tōki no Aura and Tōshin no Aura

Charles De Guise:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Sonkaken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Mang Kuangyun:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Sonkaken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Zhang Taiyan:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Sokaken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Liu Feiyan:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Hokuto Shinken (aside for Soryu Tenha, Tenha Kassatsu and Musō Tensei) and Kyokujuji Seiken, Mastery over Keiraku Hiko, Tōki and Tōki no Aura

 

[Jasonsith]

I remember only Kenshiro and Raoh learnt Musou Tensei.
And Kasumi Kenshiro learnt the "Musou Tensei sign" (incomplete version) of it.
Modify accordingly thanks.

Other seems fine at a glance

 

[Stefano4444]

Souther:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Rei:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Shin:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Yuda:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

Juza:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Fudou:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Ryuga:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Cold Manipulation (with Ryuga’s Taizan Tenro Ken), Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Falco:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Gento Koken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura

Ein:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities

Shu:
Superhuman Physical Characteristics, Standard Kenpo Abilities, Master of Nanto Seiken, Mastery over Tōki and Tōki no Aura, Skilled in Keiraku Hiko

 

[Twellas]

wait wait wait, hell no, nobody outside of Ken, Hyoh and arguably Liu has a god of war aura. The nanto fighters should only MAYBE have a Toki no aura and people like Amiiba and Jagi should 100% not have it.

Kaioh should have the matouki alongside Hyoh and for 90% of the characters "pressure points mastery" only goes as far as having perfect defence against them.
Ryuga is not a master of Nanto from what we know, he just has the taizan kenpo.

Ein obviously knows nothing about ki, so no toki or pressure points for him

 

[Biturb0bros]

I think that all the Nanto Rokusei Ken should just have like "general knowledge about keiraku hiko", considering that after using Nanto Ko Ha Ryū, Rei said that "deceiving the opponent in order to win is also part of our training" while referring to the pressure point.

Falco knows how to counter pressure points, so he might fall in that "category" too.

I'm unsure about Juza and Fudou, considering that they're members of the Nanto Goshasei and from what we've seen, the only Nanto branch that used pressure points is Nanto Rokusei (referring to my first point).

Ryuga and Ein shouldn't have knowledge about them at all.

 

[Jasonsith]

I think that all the Nanto Rokusei Ken should just have like "general knowledge about keiraku hiko", considering that after using Nanto Ko Ha Ryū, Rei said that "deceiving the opponent in order to win is also part of our training" while referring to the pressure point.

Falco knows how to counter pressure points, so he might fall in that "category" too.

I'm unsure about Juza and Fudou, considering that they're members of the Nanto Goshasei and from what we've seen, the only Nanto branch that used pressure points is Nanto Rokusei (referring to my first point).

Ryuga and Ein shouldn't have knowledge about them at all.

Only the Rokuseiken (except Yuria) could have a brief idea about pressure points right?

Nanto Seiken users generally uses ki for cutting things ignoring conventional durability.

 

[Biturb0bros]

Only the Rokuseiken (except Yuria) could have a brief idea about pressure points right?

Nanto Seiken users generally uses ki for cutting things ignoring conventional durability.

Yeah exactly. Further proof might be that Amiba, who Rei knew because they were basically "classmates" at Nanto from what I understood, already knew about pressure points (tried to fix a man's leg using pressure points) before he had deepened them as fake Toki.

Now yeah, he says that he studied Nanto Seiken, he doesn't specify the branch, but the fact that Rei adds "Just like me" let us assume that he was a former Rokusei student.

 

[Stefano4444]

Bump

 

[Twellas]

what's left to do?

 

[Stefano4444]

what's left to do?

Update all profiles in terms of powers and abilities (which we should be able to do it soon after make sure that what i wrote above its correct), see what calcs/feats/statements that have been accepted (or are yet to be accepted) and then determinate what scaling and multiplier to use.

 

[Jasonsith]

Update all profiles in terms of powers and abilities (which we should be able to do it soon after make sure that what i wrote above its correct), see what calcs/feats/statements that have been accepted (or are yet to be accepted) and then determinate what scaling and multiplier to use.

Update
1. I made a sandbox for everyone to reorganize the findings about the powers and abilities into a (draft) page format

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star

vsbattles.fandom.com

(@Stefano4444 since you are quite devoted in adding the powers and abilities, you may have an extra look and slap your blog info into this draft page)

Make sure most of Kenshiro's abilities are grouped properly

2. I am currently revising the Jagi nuke feat for another mod to approve it.

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

3. I just built a reqally skeleton skeleton framework as a sandbox for everyone to actually add every notable battle for Hokuto No Ken main canon.

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

Since quite some equally knowledgeable people really insist on setting a multiplier system for powerscaling purpose and not just an addition of powers and abilities, such practice is to be handled with extreme caution. And again, fill in anything.
Insert new exlanations if necessary.

Until the scaling chains are complete and I (or another mod) give a final thumb up, I suggest refraining from making vs threads from this verse and if things get out of control just assume everyone is Jagi tier. first and then lock the pages.
Only when the multiplier system is clearly established then we can apply the changes using the new multiplier system.

Details are listed in one of my last messages.

The additions of powers and abilities are fine with some minor changes that can be applied and fixed.

This calc is yet to be evaluated.
Once done, we can have every touki user scale from this level of AP.

As for speed...

As our standard goes, pure statements cannot be used for speed. Also, some glowing attacks do not constitute light speed.

Our minimal requirements include "called a speed of light", plus demonstration of some light properties like travels in straight line, reflect/ refract on some materials and media, and burn on contact etc.

Not the best example I confess (4:00 - 4:15) but this currently our minimal requirements for acceptance of an attack as light speed.

The mach 200.2052899 end will currently be applied back if there is no other ends for speed.



As for the big table necessary for a multiplier for vs debate purpose... I listed on the message and has a sandbox. Please lay down the stages and situations where multipliers are used.

 

[Twellas]

As our standard goes, pure statements cannot be used for speed

wh-what do you mean "pure statements cannot be used for speed", so if a dude is stated 3 times to punch at the speed of light (and there's also another character who has the same statement, so it's not an outlier) it's not usable? That makes no sense, there's no way that's how it works lol

some glowing attacks do not constitute light speed.

this I can understand, but this showing pretty clearly follows more than one of the guidelines you give about light-based attacks, since it moves strictly in a straight line and burns things. I don't really mind Falco's attack not being considered for lightspeed.

 

[Jasonsith]

this I can understand, but this showing pretty clearly follows more than one of the guidelines you give about light-based attacks, since it moves strictly in a straight line and burns things. I don't really mind Falco's attack not being considered for lightspeed.

Breaking a nunchuck does not quite constitute light properties.

wh-what do you mean "pure statements cannot be used for speed", so if a dude is stated 3 times to punch at the speed of light (and there's also another character who has the same statement, so it's not an outlier) it's not usable? That makes no sense, there's no way that's how it works lol

Our site rules on guiding what is light speed

Laser/Light Beam Dodging Feats

"Light" or "Laser" dodging is a fairly common trope seen in fiction and often the center of debate regarding characters' speeds, given that light is the fastest known thing in the real universe. This article will set forth the standards of this wiki in determining what is considered a real...

vsbattles.fandom.com

"Stating a few times to punch at the speed of light" really does not support light properties.

If this interspace attack that glows is only sub-relativistic+, I really cannot trust "statements" as light speed without other things.

Do you notice any electricity properties or lightning blasts or even proper laser blasts other than statements and "chi" blasts that glows?

Alternatively... If you want one feat close to sub-relativistic speed, please ask another calc moderator to approve on the sub-relativistic speed end thanks.

 

[Twellas]

"Stating a few times to punch at the speed of light" really does not support light properties.

I don't think you understand, we are not talking lasers here, we are talking about a dude who throws punches and these punches are stated 3 times to go at the speed of light, that's it, super easy. You're probably confusing Garuda for Falco, the dude whose hands glow and stuff

Breaking a nunchuck does not quite constitute light properties.

the nunchucks were melted, but as I said, I don't mind falco's "light attack" not being used as support for FTL

 

[Antvasima]

I don't think you understand, we are not talking lasers here, we are talking about a dude who throws punches and these punches are stated 3 times to go at the speed of light, that's it, super easy. You're probably confusing Garuda for Falco, the dude whose hands glow and stuff

If it was reliably stated, it should probably be fine.

 

[Twellas]

now that I think of it, that could also be used as an AP feat, calculating the kinetic energy of the whole thing, since Garuda expressly weaponizes the friction of his lightspeed punch. It won't be that impressive compared to the nuke feat, but it should be a nice supporting feat given how Huey tanked it with relative ease and, well, this is what a suppressed Raoh did to a stronger Huey while using less than a third of his power.

 

[Jasonsith]

I don't think you understand, we are not talking lasers here, we are talking about a dude who throws punches and these punches are stated 3 times to go at the speed of light, that's it, super easy. You're probably confusing Garuda for Falco, the dude whose hands glow and stuff

I am talking about Garuda.
Oh Garuda's case is only statements after statements after statements. Even worse than with Falco.

(If I have to accept an attack speed being lightspeed based on statements alone, I may need to change the cirrent standards of how other speed statements are handled. This is not how we handle speed elsewhere.)

the nunchucks were melted, but as I said, I don't mind falco's "light attack" not being used as support for FTL

The nunchuck was broken not melted.

 

[Twellas]

(If I have to accept an attack speed being lightspeed based on statements alone, I may need to change the cirrent standards of how other speed statements are handled. This is not how we handle speed elsewhere.)

I am not kidding when I say probably 99% of verse speeds are based on ""pure statements"". There's no reason not to accept the statements outside of "they are just statements" yeah, and? It's not some one-of. Still in 2023 we are at the point of "statements are not evidence"?

 

[Antvasima]

If it was reliably stated, it should probably be fine.

Can somebody link to the statements please? Also, did knowledgeable characters make the statements in question?

 

[Twellas]

it's stated once by the man himself and then repeated twice by the description in Legends Revive which is given from a quasi-omniscient point of view

 

[Stefano4444]

Can somebody link to the statements please? Also, did knowledgeable characters make the statements in question?

Kenshiro speed mega-upgrade

So I would like to propose 2 different speed upgrades for Kenshiro, with the second one only being in case the 1st one is not accepted. 1. Kenshiro does have multiple light-speed showings in the series. As @Twellas stated in the General CRT thread, Kenshiro easily kept up with Garuda (who was...

vsbattles.com

This are the main arguments.

 

[Stefano4444]

"Stating a few times to punch at the speed of light" really does not support light properties.

But it does say this:

• The beam is called lightspeed by reliable sources.

So it not completely impossible for get SoL via only statements.

 

[Twellas]

the point is, we are not talking about a laser beam or anything even REMOTELY similar to that, like, wtf? Is it a new rule that only beam-like things can be stated to be SoL? a fictional (non-laser-beam) attack doesn't need to "have light properties" to go at the speed of light or above

 

[Silvervigilant]

Honestly we shouldn't even having this disscusion anymore, this is why this thread doesn't go anywhere.

Garuda lightspeed punch is solid
Han attack without leaving a shadow is solid
Taiyan shadowless kick is solid
Even Falco's light attack is pretty solid to me

The only ones that are iffy are Hyoh's jouma kosho and Van der kool one hundred quintillion palms.

 

[Twellas]

on a sidenote, Taiyan's kick being too fast to cast a shadow is also reinforced in the guidebook.

 

[Jasonsith]

Well...
We have had other fast motion speed feats in other verses. Their no shadow moves are not FTL BTW.

However...

https://www.sony.com/electronics/support/articles/00031181

Modern cameras do have fast shutter speed like 1/250 second.

Anything faster than such speed will be perceived by this powerful Sony camera as "not casting an image, not just a shadow or blurred image".

Though a movement of arms within 1/250 s will be good starting point for other AP feats like cloud parting feats. I have a handful. But will need other calc members to check if this borrowing of time frame is good in practice.

 

[Twellas]

??????????????????????????????????

 

[Silvervigilant]

Their no shadow moves are not FTL BTW.

Any reasons?

 

[Armorchompy]

Jason, you're supposed to have a reasoning behind an argument. Also, what do cameras have to do with this?

 

[Jasonsith]

Jason, you're supposed to have a reasoning behind an argument. Also, what do cameras have to do with this?

Basically quite some verses (at some point) have called some attacks FTL without otherwise showing any properties supporting such. This is a common trope.

Our site rules are scrutinizing such claims with our standards.

Calling an author's claim of light speed light speed just because the author says so is circular scaling.

Fallacies

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

vsbattles.fandom.com

And can easily fall into the category of hyperbole.

Hyperbole

A hyperbole is a term that refers to statements made in a particular work of fiction that are exaggerations of the actual truth of the matter. Often hyperboles are used as evidence in debates, and it can be very difficult to tell if a statement is a hyperbole or not. A general rule is that if a...

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Also calling a "no shadow attack" FTL because the attack is literally called no shadow attack is a fallacy of equivocation

Fallacies

One thing to keep in mind, is that even if someone is using a fallacy, it does not necessarily mean that their argument is not true. It merely means that they are attempting to argue for it improperly. These are the examples that apply to this wiki, with the original list written by Endless...

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While the no shadow attack claim may be slightly less unreliable because it also has such claim in a guide book, to actually prove how "no shadow" an attack is (when moving FTE or faster than camera can be good enough to "not cast a shadow" perceived by human eye, not really needing to be FTL to "not cast a shadow" as per literal wording), we need to evaluate other speed feats to see how reliable (or to which degree) those claims are.

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Also, if people agree that Kasumi Kenshiro jumped by tagging lightning strike speed when meeting Liu Zongwu, then perhaps we get MHS+ to sub-relativistic speed from such. Not FTL still, but close enough.

 

[Armorchompy]

Could someone please show me the statements in question (as well as other relativistic to FTL stuff)? It is true that we don't take every FTL statement to the letter, so I'd like to review them.

 

[Twellas]

Basically quite some verses (at some point) have called some attacks FTL without otherwise showing any properties supporting such

What do you mean "properties"? What "properties" must a punch have in order to be considered SoL?

alling an author's claim of light speed light speed just because the author says so is circular scaling.

it's not an author statement, it's an in-verse statement

And can easily fall into the category of hyperbole.

why would it? "it could be an hyperbole" is not an argument, prove it is

Also calling a "no shadow attack" FTL because the attack is literally called no shadow attack is a fallacy of equivocation

the guidebook verbatim says "because of its speed, which does not even cast a shadow, it is called Shadowless Kick", it literally can't get any more explicit than this, it's not a matter of "it's FTL because it's called shadowless kick" it's "it's FTL because we have 2 sources explicitely specifying that it's indeed too fast to cast a shadow"

While the no shadow attack claim may be slightly less unreliable because it also has such claim in a guide book, to actually prove how "no shadow" an attack is (when moving FTE or faster than camera can be good enough to "not cast a shadow" perceived by human eye, not really needing to be FTL to "not cast a shadow" as per literal wording), we need to evaluate other speed feats to see how reliable (or to which degree) those claims are.

Camera? what camera? No, being FTE is not "good enough to not cast a shadow", what are you talking about? It doesn't say "too fast to see the shadow", it says that it doesn't cast a shadow at all. This is such a forced downplay.
We have other feats, a different dude who's fodder is stated to be able to punch at the speed of light

 

[Twellas]

Could someone please show me the statements in question (as well as other relativistic to FTL stuff)? It is true that we don't take every FTL statement to the letter, so I'd like to review them.

Garuda states himself that he can punch at the speed of light, the Legends Revive Game repeats it 2 more times

Taiyan has a technique, the Shadowless Kick which is specified both in the official Guidebook (an alternative translation for the same text is "It is also called The Shadowless Kick because it is so quick that not even a shadow forms") and Revive game to be "too fast to cast a shadow". Neither character has any antifeat of any kind nor does anyone who would scale