Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)

[Armorchompy]

Hmm. If it was just the name and the SoL statements, I'd actually be in favor of ignoring them, but with the actual statement that they move too fast to leave a shadow then it seems very clear to me that the intent is indeed for the character to be comparable to the speed of light.

 

[Armorchompy]

By the way, if you're planning to link those pics to the wiki, make sure you upload them to either the wiki itself or an image hosting site, since Discord isn't very reliable for that.

 

[Jasonsith]

Garuda states himself that he can punch at the speed of light, the Legends Revive Game repeats it 2 more times

Taiyan has a technique, the Shadowless Kick which is specified both in the official Guidebook (an alternative translation for the same text is "It is also called The Shadowless Kick because it is so quick that not even a shadow forms") and Revive game to be "too fast to cast a shadow". Neither character has any antifeat of any kind nor does anyone who would scale

Do we have an animation where the motion of an attack is compared with natural light?

Sorry for any misconception but it would be sad if an attack that was light speed did not even have some showings to prove such.

Air friction needs only running shy of Mach 5 to catch human on fire, so that may hurt some claim that such air attack that burns is light beam.

Hmm. If it was just the name and the SoL statements, I'd actually be in favor of ignoring them, but with the actual statement that they move too fast to leave a shadow then it seems very clear to me that the intent is indeed for the character to be comparable to the speed of light.

Well so we have the guidebook and the statement.

Any comic scan actually showing clearly how the fight is "not casting shadow" instead of "not seeing images of shadow to human eye" (and not for lazy drawing obviously)?

(Back then the idea of "no shadow attack" in general comes from Qing Dynasty to early ROC era, where the attack is considered fast by attacking "faster than a human can react".
Of course the FOTNS no shadow attack should be faster than that.)

I expect at least some comic showcase of such to prove such claim (tho I remember it was earlier deemed just left out drawing and may coincide with cases of "not seeing images of shadow to human eye").

 

[Armorchompy]

Well so we have the guidebook and the statement.

Any comic scan actually showing clearly how the fight is "not casting shadow" instead of "not seeing images of shadow to human eye" (and not for lazy drawing obviously)?

I don't think that's necessary, coupled with the FTL statements the intention is pretty clear.

 

[Twellas]

not seeing images of shadow to human eye

literally nothing about the statement implies this is what's happening, the guidebook is clear, the SHADOW is not being CAST, it's not that "it's invisible to the naked eye", it's not being cast to begin with, you're reaching so hard to come up with an interpretation of the statement that's not FTL,

(and not for lazy drawing obviously)?

How would you even determine this? This is one arbitrary requirement, but as it goes, I have just off the top of my head 2 instances: Han vs Ken and Kasumi vs Liu, but I have a feeling that both of these are just the author being lazy, right?

(Back then the idea of "no shadow attack" in general comes from Qing Dynasty to early ROC era, where the attack is considered fast by attacking "faster than a human can react".
Of course the FOTNS no shadow attack should be faster than that.)

but this is not what's going on here, it's super clear, the shadow is not being cast, period.

 

[Jasonsith]

I don't think that's necessary, coupled with the FTL statements the intention is pretty clear.

I believe this is useful (if not straight out essential)

And anything close to relativistic speed to at least back the light speed statements? That also helps.

 

[Armorchompy]

And anything close to relativistic speed to at least back the light speed statements? That also helps.

Yeah, being able to outspeed his own shadow. They support one another. Also you yourself said that he's a lightning timer at minimum.

 

[Silvervigilant]

Bump

 

[Jasonsith]

Yeah, being able to outspeed his own shadow. They support one another. Also you yourself said that he's a lightning timer at minimum.

Well that lightning timing feat has its low end whatever accepted and in another thread the high end (sub-relativistic) is rejected.

If we have at least one mod feeling comfortable on granting FTL on statements, here we go (at least the statement comes from a guidebook plus some game information with authorization from an author).
Just to make sure the source of the basis of granting FTL is precisely quoted (which page of which comic, which section of which game).

I don't think you understand, we are not talking lasers here, we are talking about a dude who throws punches and these punches are stated 3 times to go at the speed of light, that's it, super easy. You're probably confusing Garuda for Falco, the dude whose hands glow and stuff

Please quote the references and save/upload the images in another site other than Discord - we would need these as basis for referencing our grounds for granting FTL speed on statements alone.

As for the AP feat and multiplier issue, please follow my previous quote.

Update
1. I made a sandbox for everyone to reorganize the findings about the powers and abilities into a (draft) page format

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star

vsbattles.fandom.com

(@Stefano4444 since you are quite devoted in adding the powers and abilities, you may have an extra look and slap your blog info into this draft page)

Make sure most of Kenshiro's abilities are grouped properly

2. I am currently revising the Jagi nuke feat for another mod to approve it.

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

3. I just built a reqally skeleton skeleton framework as a sandbox for everyone to actually add every notable battle for Hokuto No Ken main canon.

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

Since quite some equally knowledgeable people really insist on setting a multiplier system for powerscaling purpose and not just an addition of powers and abilities, such practice is to be handled with extreme caution. And again, fill in anything.
Insert new exlanations if necessary.

Until the scaling chains are complete and I (or another mod) give a final thumb up, I suggest refraining from making vs threads from this verse and if things get out of control just assume everyone is Jagi tier. first and then lock the pages.
Only when the multiplier system is clearly established then we can apply the changes using the new multiplier system.

Point one is being handled by @Stefano4444.

With the agenda already set, I think

1. the powers and abilities are mostly fine, most of them are already accepted
2. the revised Jagi nuke feat is yet to be properly evaluated
But once done, every FOTNS character scale around or above Jagi and done
3. For the setup of the multiplier system, it is a long project and likely actually needs a new CRT to monitor

What are the issues that we can already settle here and what are those that needs to be moved over to a new CRT?

Point two is yet to be approved. But once done, we can convert every stat for every character to "stronger than or comparable to Jagi tier".

Point three... I have made a sandbox.

Insert fights and instances where how multipliers are and are not applied and we would have a clearer picture on how multipliers should actually be applied - and which character at which key scale from which level of multiplier.

---

Thank you all for your cooperation and contribution. I may sound like a devil's advocate or even an opposer but I really appreciate the high quality of our site be maintained. Thank you all.

 

[Stefano4444]

If nobody else had anything to add i think i could start with updating the profiles with the new Powers and Abilities, so that we can focus to AP, Speed and Multiplier.

Also Jason for the blog about HoK's Martial Arts, do you prefer if the profiles link to my OG blog or yours?

 

[Jasonsith]

If nobody else had anything to add i think i could start with updating the profiles with the new Powers and Abilities, so that we can focus to AP, Speed and Multiplier.

Also Jason for the blog about HoK's Martial Arts, do you prefer if the profiles link to my OG blog or yours?

Mine is basically a sandbox for everyone to amend and add on so basically the most optimal way is to see how your additions merge into mine then remove any of which other members see have to go.

 

[Antvasima]

I personally agree with Armorchompy here. This seems fine to apply.

 

[Stefano4444]

If nobody else had anything to add i think i could start with updating the profiles with the new Powers and Abilities, so that we can focus to AP, Speed and Multiplier.

Can anyone just conferm if i can do it?

 

[Jasonsith]

What confirmed is:

1. Powers and abilities - throw everything into here

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star

vsbattles.fandom.com

2. Speed - since we have one more moderator actually buying FTL by sheer statements in a guidebook, we now need to quote the exact source for every scan saying the FTL statements (those "shadowless attacks" and "light-based" attacks)

To do

3. AP - some calc staff please check out this one

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

4. Multiplier

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

List the fights in FOTNS, state how many multipliers and what type used for each fight, and we will have a real idea of which characters scale from which point.
I expect this be a big project.
Until this project is finished, everyone is Jagi nuke feat tier.

 

[Biturb0bros]

Can anyone just conferm if i can do it?

Ryuga isn't part of Nanto Seiken, he is part of Taizan Tenrō Ken.

Juza and Fudou are masters of Nanto Gosha Sei, so they're masters of Nanto Seiken (just like how Rei is a Nanto Roku Sei master, it's just a branch of Nanto Seiken).

Amiba isn't a master of Hokuto Shinken (Rei even calls his style "phony"), nor a master of Nanto Seiken (he was just a student and I don't think we've ever seen his actual Nanto skills).

I'm still unsure about giving "Mastery over Keiraku Hiko" to Nanto Seiken users, yeah we have proofs that they know some pressure points, but I think saying that they have mastery over them it's too much, otherwise Hokuto Shinken would just be Nanto Seiken with less techniques.

Also, why did you delete Shu? It looked fine to me.

 

[Stefano4444]

Also, why did you delete Shu? It looked fine to me.

Shu has no profile, literally.

 

[FoxySonicMaster108]

Shu has no profile, literally.

No, it's here ("the" just happened to have a capital T)

 

[Stefano4444]

I'm still unsure about giving "Mastery over Keiraku Hiko" to Nanto Seiken users, yeah we have proofs that they know some pressure points, but I think saying that they have mastery over them it's too much, otherwise Hokuto Shinken would just be Nanto Seiken with less techniques.

Then what i should put instead of mastery? expertise? skilled?

 

[Stefano4444]

No, it's here ("the" just happened to have a capital T)

Then another thing to remember its to fix his link in the verse page.

 

[Eseseso]

To do

3. AP - some calc staff please check out this one

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

I asked a calc staff member to check it out, hopefully he does so.

4. Multiplier

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

List the fights in FOTNS, state how many multipliers and what type used for each fight, and we will have a real idea of which characters scale from which point.
I expect this be a big project.
Until this project is finished, everyone is Jagi nuke feat tier.

Let's not make any AP changes until the multiplier stuff is done.

It'll take a while but I think it's better than applying the nuke feat without any idea of how the top tiers scale from it.

 

[Biturb0bros]

Then what i should put instead of mastery? expertise? skilled?

Yeah that works better, thank you. I've got one last doubt, should we give Yuda "Skilled in Keiraku Hiko" since he's a Nanto Roku Sei master just like Rei, Shin, etc.?

 

[Antvasima]

What confirmed is:

1. Powers and abilities - throw everything into here

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star

vsbattles.fandom.com

2. Speed - since we have one more moderator actually buying FTL by sheer statements in a guidebook, we now need to quote the exact source for every scan saying the FTL statements (those "shadowless attacks" and "light-based" attacks)

To do

3. AP - some calc staff please check out this one

Fist Of The North Star - Jagi Nuke Redux (2008 ver)

vsbattles.fandom.com

4. Multiplier

Jasonsith/sandbox/Fist Of The North Star Scaling

vsbattles.fandom.com

List the fights in FOTNS, state how many multipliers and what type used for each fight, and we will have a real idea of which characters scale from which point.
I expect this be a big project.
Until this project is finished, everyone is Jagi nuke feat tier.

Thank you for helping out, Jason.

I asked some calc group members to evaluate your calculation blog linked above.

 

[Stefano4444]

By the way do you think we can reasonable assume that most if not all Non-Specific Resistances are scalable to the rest of the cast?

Also seeing the many instances of Regeneration from many characters i think that should be put in general Standard Kenpo Abilities too.

Maybe even Underground Mobility and Surface Scaling since neither requid specific/special techniques/abilities exclusive to just a few.

 

[Antvasima]

By the way do you think we can reasonable assume that most if not all Non-Specific Resistances are scalable to the rest of the cast?

Also seeing the many instances of Regeneration from many characters i think that should be put in general Standard Kenpo Abilities too.

Maybe even Underground Mobility and Surface Scaling since neither requid specific/special techniques/abilities exclusive to just a few.

What do the rest of you think about this?

 

[Twellas]

a new guidebook was released 3 days ago. It confirms that Kasumi mastered Musou Tensei and his is superior to Ken's because he can use it unconsciously (which implies Ken can't). Also heavily implies he's more skilled than Ken ("he has outstanding abilities even among Hokuto practitioners", given that the paragraph expressly mentions Raoh and Ken, this would place Kasumi above them. He's also stated to posses "genius qualities as a fighter").

Scaling wise this just means that
1) Every statement about Ken being "the strongest successor" due to mastering MT is moot (never was valid to begin with, but this is just the nail in the coffin)
2) Kasumi has full blown Musou Tensei
3) Kasumi's skill section should list him as the most skilled character in the verse
4) Ken's MT doesn't work unconsciously, which is a pretty massive deal in VS matches because he can now be speedblitzed without MT activating

 

[Silvervigilant]

a new guidebook was released 3 days ago. It confirms that Kasumi mastered Musou Tensei and his is superior to Ken's because he can use it unconsciously (which implies Ken can't). Also heavily implies he's more skilled than Ken ("he has outstanding abilities even among Hokuto practitioners", given that the paragraph expressly mentions Raoh and Ken, this would place Kasumi above them.

It kinda contradicts the source material in way imo since we never even see Kasumi using MT, only that time with Zongwu and he never demonstraded the level of control that Ken and Raoh demonstraded but if the guidebooks were supervised by either Buronson or Hara, i do not see a problem with it, and while i believe in you, this statement really changes thing up when it comes to the scaling, so i think it would better to find someone who speaks Japanese here, and show that the guidebook really states that in one of it's pages

He's also stated to posses "genius qualities as a fighter").

I would also say the same about Toki, Raoh and Ken, but i digress.

Scaling wise this just means that
1) Every statement about Ken being "the strongest successor" due to mastering MT is moot (never was valid to begin with, but this is just the nail in the coffin)

Ken being the strongest successor doesn't change tho, the only thing that changes is that Kasumi is most skilled fighter in the verse but not the strongest, a statement in another guidebook says that Kenshiro is the strongest as yourself showed to us, and Hara basically said that both were equal, so there's only 2 ways to look at this

1 Skill: Kasumi>Ken. Power: Ken>Kasumi
2 Skill: Kasumi>Ken. Power: Ken=Kasumi

I still lean to Ken being the strongest, due to the amount of amp and power ups and boosts he received during his journey compared to Kasumi, but i have no problem to put both as equals in power.

2) Kasumi has full blown Musou Tensei

I guess.

3) Kasumi's skill section should list him as the most skilled character in the verse

Agreed.

4) Ken's MT doesn't work unconsciously, which is a pretty massive deal in VS matches because he can now be speedblitzed without MT activating

Well, i believe MT works unconsciously by nature regardless of who is using it, i mean the name itself suggest this notion,

Musou Tensei=
Nil-Thought Rebirth (English Translation) [Nil means zero or nonexistent btw]
Unconscious Transmigration of Souls (Ken's Rage, Ken's Rage 2)
Subconscious Transmigration of Souls (Lost Paradise, Legends ReVIVE)

And as we know, in FOTNS the names of the techniques are accurate to the nature of the attack.

But anyway, nice work finding these guidebooks. I'm also curious to see what this guidebook says about the OG Kenshiro

 

[Twellas]

It kinda contracdicts the source material in way imo since we never even see Kasumi usinf MT

we do, here (also off of this description MT should give immunity [or very high resistance] to precognition, given that it's "impossible to defend against")

he never demonstraded the level of control that Ken and Raoh demonstraded

He used it willingly on Liu, he can perfectly recount what happened when he used it

i think it would better to find someone who speaks Japanese here, and show that the guidebook really states that in one of it's pages

I ran it through pretty much every translator out there, the Kanji for "mastery" is there in plain sight

Ken being the strongest successor doesn't change tho, the only thing that changes is that Kasumi is most skilled fighter in the verse but not the strongest, a statement in another guidebook says that Kenshiro is the strongest as yourself showed to us, and Hara basically said that both were equal, so there's only 2 ways to look at this

1 Skill: Kasumi>Ken. Power: Ken>Kasumi
2 Skill: Kasumi>Ken. Power: Ken=Kasumi

I still lean to Ken being the strongest, due to the amount of amp and power ups and boosts he received during his journey compared to Kasumi, but i have no problem to put both as equals in power.

I think they are equal in stats and the skill gap simply isn't big enough to make a difference in the fight.

Well, i believe MT works unconsciously by nature regardless of who is using it, i mean the name itself suggest this notion,

Musou Tensei=
Nil-Thought Rebirth (English Translation) [Nil means zero or nonexistent btw]
Unconscious Transmigration of Souls (Ken's Rage, Ken's Rage 2)
Subconscious Transmigration of Souls (Lost Paradise, Legends ReVIVE)

And as we know, in FOTNS the names of the techniques are accurate to the nature of the attack.

Ken's MT itself is still unconscious, just the activation isn't. Ken needs to consciously "switch it on", Kasumi doesn't.

 

[Silvervigilant]

we do, here

Yeah against Zongwu, i did mention that.

He used it willingly on Liu, he can perfectly recount what happened when he used it

Wait, i didn't remember about that, but this kinda bugs me honestly, wasn't Kasumi unconscious when MT was activaded?, here he appeared to have used willingly on Zongwu, which makes the only time that MT was activaded automatically not valid anymore.

I think they are equal in stats and the skill gap simply isn't big enough to make a difference in the fight.

Yeah i also agree with this notion. i just think Ken is a little bit stronger, and Kasumi a little bit more skilled, but neither advantage is big enough to make a difference in a hypothetical fight between the 2

Ken's MT itself is still unconscious, just the activation isn't. Ken needs to consciously "switch it on", Kasumi doesn't.

This is kinda strange to me, when MT is being used, the user is "unconscious" but to activate it he has to be conscious?

 

[Twellas]

Wait, i didn't remember about that, but this kinda bugs me honestly, wasn't Kasumi unconscious when MT was activaded?, here he appeared to have used willingly on Zongwu, which makes the only time that MT was activaded automatically not valid anymore.

it being used unconsciously doesn't preclude volition, which could have come even before he was knocked out. It's quite clear that "unconsciousness" in HNK is a pretty lax concept, ffs Ken can literally TALK while in MT. Regardless, Kasumi couldn't possibily have "mastered" MT if he wasn't able to use it on command.

This is kinda strange to me, when MT is being used, the user is "unconscious" but to activate it he has to be conscious?

while it's active the user is unconscious but in order to activate it Ken has to be conscious. MT's "unconsciousness" is more similar to the idea of reflex rather than having your brain literally shut down. It's just a much stronger, more complex and less restrained form of reflexive movement.

 

[Stefano4444]

bump

 

[Biturb0bros]

Bump x2

 

[Maxfireup]

I am sorry to bother everyone here. i know you are all very busy, but about the Fate manipulation for the men/fighters of Hokuto, is there any evidence that anyone besides Kasumi Kenshirō has fate manipulation, because honestly if the 64th successor could change his fate he would not have gone through many of the tragedies that he did in manga/anime. The guardian goddess of Hokuto even stopped Kasumi from killing Liú Zōngwǔ so isn't it more like a powers that be sort of thing, oner example would be in the Jagi Gaiden after ken killed Jagi ken actually laments that he had to kill Jagi and screams to the seven stars of the big dipper for having to fight his other brothers.

 

[Maxfireup]

I really hate to be a bother, but I would like to know if you guys are going to apply feats from the anime as well as the anime added a bunch of other combatants and opponents for ken to fight before he finally reached Shin.

 

[Stefano4444]

I really hate to be a bother, but I would like to know if you guys are going to apply feats from the anime as well as the anime added a bunch of other combatants and opponents for ken to fight before he finally reached Shin.

Unsure about the feats from Anime, however for now i don't think anyone had express the interest to add new profiles, or at least not when the revision its not over.

 

[Maxfireup]

Unsure about the feats from Anime, however for now i don't think anyone had express the interest to add new profiles, or at least not when the revision its not over.

Thank you for responding so quickly.

 

[Jasonsith]

I am sorry to bother everyone here. i know you are all very busy, but about the Fate manipulation for the men/fighters of Hokuto, is there any evidence that anyone besides Kasumi Kenshirō has fate manipulation, because honestly if the 64th successor could change his fate he would not have gone through many of the tragedies that he did in manga/anime. The guardian goddess of Hokuto even stopped Kasumi from killing Liú Zōngwǔ so isn't it more like a powers that be sort of thing, oner example would be in the Jagi Gaiden after ken killed Jagi ken actually laments that he had to kill Jagi and screams to the seven stars of the big dipper for having to fight his other brothers.

I do not think so - do not think anyone other than Kasumi Kenshiro should have fate manipulation.

In fact, may I have a scan about how Kasumi Kenshiro has fate manipulation? From your description even his is shaky.

 

[Eseseso]

Yeah, how does Kasumi have fate manipulation?

 

[Maxfireup]

I do not think so - do not think anyone other than Kasumi Kenshiro should have fate manipulation.

In fact, may I have a scan about how Kasumi Kenshiro has fate manipulation? From your description even his is shaky.

once again i am sorry to bother everyone here but doesn't the Fist Of The North Star sandbox by Jasonsith and Stefano4444 say that The men of Hokuto can control and change their own fate. Toki, with his sheer skill and talent, bent Raoh's fate and manifested his harbinger of death. The Hokuto successor is destined not to die, conversely, those who experience his wrath are fated to die in accordance to the fact that the Big Dipper (IE, Hokuto) “presides over the fate of all living beings” and “governs death”

 

[Twellas]

I swear I've gone into detail about this at least like 4 times already: Kasumi is stated to be able to "control his own fate", upon hearing this he thinks "does he know I'm a man of Hokuto?" meaning that men of Hokuto have the power to change their own fate, shown with Mang, a user of an Hokuto branch, who changed his own fate and prologued his life as a result. Hokuto Shinken presides over the fate of all living beings, whoever experiences the wrath of Hokuto is fated to die, the Hokuto successor is fated not to die, Ken can "overcome his destiny". This being said, the Hokuto successor still (willingly) follows the "will of the heavens", which is why Kasumi spares Liu, or Taiyan's brother, it can be understood to be a sort of "divine plan" that everyone follows and it includes the fact that the successor of Hokuto has to "shoulder a sad fate"

 

[Maxfireup]

I do not think so - do not think anyone other than Kasumi Kenshiro should have fate manipulation.

In fact, may I have a scan about how Kasumi Kenshiro has fate manipulation? From your description even his is shaky.

By the way about I have a few comments I would like to make about the hokuto no ken sandbox/respect threads, firstly you guys have wrote that ken has a resistance to all natural poisons, but in the manga it explicitly states that he actually has been gifted from birth with resistances to all poisonous substances.
Secondly Kaioh once brutally pierced his left pectoral with his right hand causing large spurts of blood to pour out occur and then his wound has almost totally sealed up in the second panel and lastly there are at least four times ken lifted massive boulders will they all be calculated?.
please respond when you can.