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The standard nuke calc should be fine to use tho?
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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)
- Thread starter Stefano4444
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Stefano4444
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Kinda, the High 6-A is not like the power that was unleashed across the entire nuclear war, which would then kinda match the oceans vaporization result.
The KE come from just a single nuke, while the planet was hitt by like a dozens of theme, earth's crust would have been turned into molten lava when it happen.
Also Hokuto Shinken users be a "threat" to the entire world can work even with them be only country busters.
Stefano4444
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I think this scaling work the best, we only need to double check which characters should genuinely scale to Kaioh's power.
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This scaling is based on the scaling doc that i did, but @Twellas and @Matthew55 don't fully agree with it tho.
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Yeaaaaah... This is wack.
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It's stated that the nuclear war cracked the planet in two, which would be small planet level, so technically there were "larger" consequences compared to just all the water evaporating.
they're not "a threat" they can destroy it, two very different statements
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It is possible that the very recently increased scale of DC Comics cosmology with the creation of a full multiverse will increase the future tiering.
Stefano4444
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Yeah i don't think we can trully go with that interpretation not when Earth was never show to be trully crack in half, at least with the seas we see many times that the world was turned into a desert and most (but not all of them since the Sea of Death still exist) bodies of water had been eliminated, i can't say the same with the latter case.
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Dozens of them would still be within the multi continent range...
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I mean, even just the fact of all the bodies of water evaporating would have caused a similar result, the earth should logically be just a bunch of craters and nothing else, but there are still semi-intact buildings right next to evaporated seas, the seas evaporating would also have completely ****** the atmosphere but it's clearly fine, there's clouds, rain, oxygen, plants grow (somewhat). It's fairly obvious that we just have to suspend our disbelief in regards to the mechanics of the war. I don't even think the H6-A shockwave would factor into any of this because clearly its energy was "used" for moving the clouds and not on the planet itself unlike the fireball
the fact that we never see the crack doesn't invalidate the statement, we simply weren't given the chance (even when we get shots of the planet as a whole, it's completely covered in toxic fumes and even if it wasn't it's entirely possible that the crack would not be visible due to it being small comparatively to the diameter of the earth), by the same logic we also never see a dried-up sea but we just accept the statements (which are the same ones that give the "earth was split" info btw).
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Analyze AP scaling
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Well if you could approve at least one of the proposed scaling multiplier chains above, that would be appreciated.
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Well, in this particular case I am probably fine with the consensus from all of you combined, but it would be good if you quote what needs to be evaluated here, and tell me which other staff members that have helped out in this thread previously.
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The nuke calc was recently accepted, so if you could look at and accept the following multiplier scaling chain for it, that would be appreciated:
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Okay, but calc scaling is not my area. Are there any calc group members who have helped out in this thread previously or have listed themselves as interested in HnK in our verse page for the series?
Stefano4444
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Bump
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@SamanPatou @Jasonsith @Ogurtsow @Mr._Bambu @Damage3245 @Wokistan @Armorchompy @M3X_2.0
Are any of you willing to help out here please?
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Everyone can suggest a chain say A beat B or A stomp B.
Not that the multiplier is actually approved.
The scaling chain risk is not that high however if no multipliers are involved.
But I would like to know if everyone is happy with just use (a) the nuke feat end or (b) the Kaioh ocean dissipation statement end; then a flat scaling chain without multipliers.
(Oh the revised nuke yield end is officially yet to be approved by Bambu.)
Or we can make the middle and say (c) "at least nuke feat yield level, possibly ocean vaporisation potential statement level".
Not that the multiplier is actually approved.
The scaling chain risk is not that high however if no multipliers are involved.
But I would like to know if everyone is happy with just use (a) the nuke feat end or (b) the Kaioh ocean dissipation statement end; then a flat scaling chain without multipliers.
(Oh the revised nuke yield end is officially yet to be approved by Bambu.)
Or we can make the middle and say (c) "at least nuke feat yield level, possibly ocean vaporisation potential statement level".
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The Ocean vaporization end never made sense to me as i've argued before above
However I'd be fine with a possibly rating using the ocean vape calc in the multiplier
I think we should just scale off of the nuke calc (Blast radius not air dispersion)
Also why can't you just evaluate the calc Jason?
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If Jagi revised nuke yield end is accepted, then we can just say every high tier touki practitioners (those >= Jagi) are just at around or higher than this level. No multipliers.
1. Multiplier for scaling purpose has never been properly established and can only go circular scaling at worst
2. Shmeatywerbenmanjenson claims ocean vaporisation potential statement for scaling never make sense to them.
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I do not think we ever reached a consensus on the multiplier thing.
Especially since Ken grows so much stronger over the course of the series.
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are we STILL discussing the multiplier?? It's stated twice on-page to be 3.3x, what's there to discuss? If anything, we should be discussing the Sekkakko multiplier and how it changes the scaling, because it should logically be at least a 10x amp given how we know that far weaker pressure points can give a 10x amp to strenght and there'd be no point in using a pressure point designed to amp your strength and that literally kills you if there was a risk-free pressure point that gave a comparable amp.
FoxySonicMaster108
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I brought this up before, but weren’t multipliers accepted WAY before any of the High 6-A upgrades? That’s how Ken was even given 6-B before
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The guide book says something about the Tenryu Kokyu Hou sure, and it surely serves as a plot device or something, and yes this is shown in the comics and in the anime sure. But not quite as a multiplier for the purpose of power scaling.
About the far weaker pressure points can give a 10x amp to strength thing, can we have more context?
If Sekkakou is meant to be a power amping move and is meant to be stronger than Tenryu Kokyu Hou and a "random pressure point that gives 10x power amp" or some random ki concentrating, there is one more thing that we need to answer: how many times do we need to count the characters concentrating ki, "the 10x power amp" pressure point, the Tenryu Kokyu Hou and the Sekkakou.
If all are meant to be power amping moves in the versus debate context, then all characters and all times using each move need to be counted and well indexed and referenced.
This is not yet to think on the risk of one character yells and has a power boost just for the other to yell again and match it. The scaling can just go nuts
Or if you believe this to be too much a hassle, just have everyone be "higher", "far higher", "even higher" than Jagi and close the case.
For the revised calc for Jagi nuke feat to begin with, hold on for a few hour s I will use my crappy computer to check the revised Jagi revised nuke calc page instead of Bambu.
Likely doing a redux blog.
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it's stated 2 times to be a 3x multiplier, I genuinely don't see the issue here, it's shown to make him faster and stronger, so what's the hold up
Sekkakko is not some "ki concentration" or anything like that, it's a very defined pressure point, and it's only used 2 times in the whole series because it literally kills the user, which is the rationale behind it being superior to TKH etc: there'd be no reason for Toki or anyone to use the Sekkakko if they could obtain a comparable amp through safer methods, such as the 10x pressure point I showed, which has no drowbacks at all.
We can't just ignore amps because they'd be inconvenient to catalogue lol. As it stands, in terms of amps, Ken has Tenryu Kokyu Oh (3x, stated on panel), Kiko Yabu (shown on screen to be superior to TKH, arguably twice as strong), pressure points (the 10x one and the Sekkakko), Rage Amp, Sadness (it's stated numerous times that the deeper Ken's sadness the stronger he becomes, he can also "turn sorrow into rage") and Spirit Amp (This isn't exclusive to Ken, it's been showcased by other characters such as Fudo and implied by Shew, Ken himself uses it against Raoh in their first fight and it lets him power through Toki's pressure point and match Raoh, in Fudo and Shew's case it was shown/stated to be able to keep the user alive after his death, in Fudo's case it allowed him to become strong enough to kill Raoh if he wasn't stopped).
I will agree that the series has some wacky concepts that cannot be applied to the wiki due to how complex they'd be to implement (like the fact that the characters are heavily implied to actually fight and throw punches at speeds that surpass their own perception speed), but this is not one of them, we can literally just list these amps as "Higher with X, Y, Even higher with Z", the only problem would be quantify which amp is the strongest.
Scaling HNK2 people to Jagi's feats would unironically be like scaling Dragonball Super characters by upscaling from Saibamen lol, he's complete fodder already at the start of the series pretty much and in HNK2 you've got average goons that are End of HNK1-Raoh level; if we use the air dispersion end for the nuke then sure, it's the best feat, but if we're gonna use the blast end I genuinely don't see the issue with Kaioh's statement
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I can see the concern Twellas has raised.
Sure some people want to do something to note some differentiation on lower tier characters from high tier characters.
But while there are cases character stat amplification techniques are considered multipliers legit for power scaling, there are also other cases where such are not the case.
Also
1. Taking one amp as a multiplier and others not is arbitrary
2. For multiplier scaling chains to work even, one needs to list all matches where powerup are and not are used (preferably in a blog with a well-sortable table) just to make it even work.
Yes I mean tables. Sortable tables.
3. Just one idea: If the battle lists are made and the low end and high end yields for touki practitioners are approved (I actually see Kaioh's yield for a statement is under challenge), any multiplier and results battle prowess should ultimately match with EOS ultimate Kaioh and EOS ultimate Kenshiro.
Maybe we can work backward to determine what values the multipliers should be.
Just giving directions. (In fact sorry I am so occupied by my family and day job even the evaluation of the revised Jagi nuke feat yield is delayed)
Sure some people want to do something to note some differentiation on lower tier characters from high tier characters.
But while there are cases character stat amplification techniques are considered multipliers legit for power scaling, there are also other cases where such are not the case.
Also
1. Taking one amp as a multiplier and others not is arbitrary
2. For multiplier scaling chains to work even, one needs to list all matches where powerup are and not are used (preferably in a blog with a well-sortable table) just to make it even work.
Yes I mean tables. Sortable tables.
3. Just one idea: If the battle lists are made and the low end and high end yields for touki practitioners are approved (I actually see Kaioh's yield for a statement is under challenge), any multiplier and results battle prowess should ultimately match with EOS ultimate Kaioh and EOS ultimate Kenshiro.
Maybe we can work backward to determine what values the multipliers should be.
Just giving directions. (In fact sorry I am so occupied by my family and day job even the evaluation of the revised Jagi nuke feat yield is delayed)
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