Stefano4444
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The Existence Erasure its based on a statement from a non-canon game, one which its also take out of context since its refer to the user's body and not the opponents.
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Fist Of The North Star Revision Part 1 (P&A)
- Thread starter Stefano4444
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I also think that the Raoh splitting cloud feat needs to be re-calc
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I mean there's the deviantart versions but with our site's accepted timeframes.
FoxySonicMaster108
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I definitely agree with removing Existence Erasure from Kasumi & Kenshiro’s profile, it’s more of supporting evidence for NEP.
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Can remove existence erasure
However, for the difference between Large Country level and Country level+...
Is the large country level coming from the cloud splitting feat with a removed timeframe which makes it invalid? Or form other sources?
More things:
1. Multipliers deemed invalid because the 33% thing is not even meant to be a multiplier
2. Kaioh and anyone comparable to him are multi continent
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I already explained to you why the multipliers are in fact meant to be a multiplier.
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The TKH multipliers are very clear cut, it's stated by Kenshiro himself that TKH utilizes the rest of the 70% of his power, and we are shown that he gets considerably more powerful every time he uses. TKH multipliers are as legit as the SSJ ones.
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Well with the exception of @Jasonsith everybody on this thread agrees that the multipliers are valid.
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Well, it is not about that "I want this be a multiplier" and everyone wants that too and then make it a multiplier.
Back to the multiplier claim, here it is: From a technique called Tenryu Kokyu Ho,
"A normal human body can only use 30% of their strength at most; however, with Tenryū Kokyū Hō, the rest of the 70% is utilized."
The 3.33 times multiplier comes from the mathematical working (100%/30%) that "A normal human body can use 30% of their strength at most" actually is a quantitative claim
(Say when we claim that a project move by an inch we can just be claiming that the job progress is not moving as expected.)
Since normal humans are just normal human tiers (or maybe Street level mobs for casually beheading people or even Wall level for casually crushing normal human skulls), the claim that this statement means a solid quantitative multiplier is made invalid. Kenshiro using it multiple times (or just spilling ki visually without even screaming "transform") means only fan service or just a display of his anger or seriousness.
Oh normal humans die from far less than a nuke (unless you are Hokuto Shinken practitioner or any touki user better than Jagi). So I really do not think this is a solid multiplier acceptable for VS debating.
The central idea of the Tenryu Kokyu Hou is that "you get a boost from a fight". It does not mean anything even quantitative despite having numbers attached. It means nothing else. Not a multiplier.
That Kenshiro shreds his clothes when he gets serious or angry or whatever even when he is not screaming Tenryu Kokyu Hou. He only screamed that word once when fighting Devil Rebirth.
Touki users can spill ki without using Tenryu Kokyu Hou.
(Just want to remind myself:
1. I know that there are some calcs I have missed out during the months. Mind quoting them again?
(Like there should be one cloud splitting feat where Kenshiro vs Kaioh happens)
2. I remember that from my calculation blog on Raoh splitting cloud feat that some parameters have been literally crossed out so that the yield ends from such cannot be accepted at all. Make sure any amendment does not base on what already rejected)
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I know, that's why i presented you the reasons.
The thing is that the Hokuto training already makes Ken much stronger than normal humans in his verse at base but he still need TKH to use 100% of his power.
No, it's shown that he becomes much stronger after he uses TKH.
Examples:
Kenshiro (before using TKH) got seriously injuried because Devil with his superhuman strength throwed him against a rock, and Devil was able to easily block Ken's jumping kick, his speed impressed Ken himself. After Ken used TKH, He tanked Devil's ultimate technique and came back unfazed, he also was fast enough to dissapear from Devil's sight, and attack him 7 times before he could even react. That's cleary a power increase.
Another example is his fight against Amiba, Kenshiro (before using TKH) was comparable to Amiba in both power and speed (note that Amiba easily blocked Kenshiro flurry of punches) After Ken used TKH, his kicks where fast enough to draw blood of Amiba's cheeks and completely destroy his shirt (note that Amiba said that Ken's fist became shaper right after being attacked by Kenshiro using TKH) Amiba himself barely "dodged" the attacks, i say "dodged" because is quite probably that Kenshiro only hit his shirt just to see if he had the scar on his back to confirm he was the real Toki. Once Kenshiro really decided to kill Amiba, he was able casually slap Amiba before the same could react, his punches where too fast to Amiba even see, and Ken was able to completely dissapear from Amiba's sight (you can also see that Ken had a boost in strength as well, due to how easily he was able pierce through Amiba's hands using only his fingers, Ken also says that Amiba would receive the full force of his fist, again implying that he's at full strength after using TKH) This is yet another example of TKH's power increase.
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Is this a solid quantitative multiplier rather than an increase to a degree that varies on different situations? Like the ratio of power boost is somehow similar in direction but not the same in exact numbers. So is it 7.5 times or 7 times or mere 3.33 times? Or it is irrelevant and more like plot elements?
Comic books and manga and anime and cartoon etc have similar cases. Where character A fights character B, character A is at a disadvantage at first, but then character A concentrates or does something - then character A wins. It will be "higher with "a technique"" at best, but still not a 3.33 times multiplier. We have a much stricter rule for one ratio to be a multiplier for better or worse, and the scaling chain is even stricter.
Off topic: I can sense your passion in finding ways to add information for the verse. I hope my stance and my reasoning do not offend you otherwise.
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I think is pretty solid, we have statements, we have showings, and while the power increase after Ken uses TKH may seem a bit too much, it's only a 3.33 times multiplier, due to Ken explanation of the technique.
I know that happens alot in anime but i'm pretty sure that's not the case here, Kenshiro accurately states that TKH makes someone use the rest 70% of his power (aka getting 3.33x stronger) , there's no problem in taking his words literally. It's pratically a rule in HNK where a Hokuto fighter is only at full power when he use the TKH, Raoh for example, in his second fight against Ken, used TKH when he was at disadvantage
It's ok, it doesn't offend me at all, and i know that we need to have strict rules about multipliers, scaling, etc... otherwise we could end up with verses with horribly inflated stats, so i understand your worries, but i really believe that there's nothing wrong with the TKH multipliers, and specially the scaling, i mean anyone who read/watch HNK knows that in terms of power Kenshiro by the end of the series is leagues above himself at the beginning of the series.
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The scaling only works if we take the Tenryu Kokyu Ho multipliers into consideration tho
Stefano4444
He/Him- 6,253
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So just to be certain, can someone remind me which characters do trully scale to Multi-Continent level and which ones scale only to Country level+/Large Country level?
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May people attach the tier from a feat, and explain how many multipliers (accepted or not) are applied?
Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats
vsbattles.fandom.com
Last time I checked the Jagi nuke feat sits at 4.39243E+21 J (Small Country) and obviously all touki users scale similar from or above that.
Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats (2)
vsbattles.fandom.com
Just FYI Kaioh scale from that feat currently - 849.677 petatons of TNT (Multi-Continent).
With some stacking on multiplier, he gains 3.33 from removing his restraint armor and gains another 3.33 from going TKH or whatever "ki focusing technique" that is called, and in the next fight he gains yet another stack. Which IIRC I only accepted the yield from statement itself. But not the stacks of multiplier.
Also, where is it discussed how Raoh scale from Kaioh?
P.S. That Kaioh water dissipation statement should scale among the Three Rashos and post-sealing unlifted Kenshiro.
This is still inconsistent showings and can be brushed off by plot necessity, so I may accept "higher with Tenryu Kokyu Hou" but definitely not using that as a multiplier.
Kenshiro punch with Falco feat:
Fist of the North Star Assorted Feats
vsbattles.fandom.com
Oh we need a Kenshiro punch Kaioh feat video again
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Well this can clarify some of the stuff for you but @Eseseso can do a much better job than me explaining the multipliers
Raoh and Falco are implicitly stated to be equals, a post timeskip Kenshiro was able to fight Falco only using 30% of his power (Ken doesn't have a shirt here, because one of Falco's attacks destroyed it, but Ken only utilizes 100% of his power when the fight is already over). This means that a Post timeskip 30% Kenshiro is equal to a Pre timeskip 100% Kenshiro (The one who fought Raoh) this same Post timeskip 30% Kenshiro also outright tanked a blast from Kaioh's Matouki, which was, in turn, stated to be able to perform the Multi-Continental feat. More details here
They seem fairly consistent to me.
As i said earlier someone already made a calc about a similar (if not the same) feat in the manga a while ago.
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Okay. I need to go back to the origin to discuss now.
Where Kenshiro (in a page with English translation) talks about the Tenryu Kokyu Hou.
"Normal men can only use 30% of such power. But I can tap into the full 100%."
1. This is referring to the use of power or "potential".
2. The "ratio" is referring to Kenshiro compared to normal human. And obviously normal human in Hokuto is far far weaker.
The ratio is not meant to be a multiplier in the first place.
Being more focused in ki does not imply using Tenryu Kokyu Hou.
Again, this is not a multiplier.
However, we do observe some attack potency scaling chain so the chain may be preserved even if the multiplier is invalid.
Fairly consistent as a general signal of plot twist/direction, not quite as a multiplier.
Looked into it. The original calc took too many assumptions (the height of the cloud above ground and the thickness of the cloud itself) and I may (guess what) need a redux calc to fix it. Poor I am really busy IRL I am pulling time in my toilet or at lunch to reply to you all.
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You just forgot to mention that in the same panel right after Kenshiro says "Normal men can only use 30% of such power. But I can tap into the full 100%." He says "That's the Hokuto Shinken's secret technique Tenryu Kokyu Ho" which means that thanks to Tenryu Kokyu Ho, Ken can tap into his full 100%. I really think that the statement is very straightforward there's no need to to interpret it in the most unlikely way possible.
He does use Tenryu Kokyu Ho tho. His muscle mass increases and he becomes stronger.
What do you mean with general signal of plot twist/direction exactly?
Because i just see Kenshiro consistently using a technique that was established very early in the series.
No problem.
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Thank you for your attention.
The technique explores the potential of what a normal human cannot explore at "their" best.
Ken can buff and concentrate ki with or without TKH. Some touki users of other branches also concentrate in ki and they are not even from Hokuto Shinken branch.
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With all due respect, i think you are misinterpreting a bit, but i'll try to clarify this for you
As i said earlier right after Kenshiro says "Normal men can only use 30% of such power. But I can tap into the full 100%." He says "That's the Hokuto Shinken's secret technique Tenryu Kokyu Ho" which means that thanks to Tenryu Kokyu Ho, Ken can tap into his full 100%. In other translations, this becomes even clearer.
And there's the Fist of the north star Ken's rage 2 game where they state this (see "Dragon Form Breathing Technique" is the 7th one) and there's nothing wrong in using the game's description here since one of the the producers of the game, said in an interview about the how the game would be made and I quote " Hisashi Koinuma, the game's producer said that the staff aim to create a "new realistic feel" for the Fist of the North Star series while still being faithful to the original's roots."
Not only that but creators of HNK Buronson and Tetsuo Hara themselves were deeply involved with the project and have gone on record to express enthusiasm and support for the game.(hell Tetsuo Hara even made a promo video sponsored by koei for the game.) So the games provide clear cut "canon" definitions for the moves and gives them names and description as to what each move does. And within the game the description for Tenryu Kokyu Ho is "A breathing technique that unleashes the fearsome power which resides within the human body. Most people only use 30% of their physical capacity, but this technique allows Kenshiro to unlock the full 100%." there it is, it clearly states that is the Tenryu Kokyu Ho that allows Ken to unlock 100% of his power.
I know that they can use Ki but that's not what happened there, usually when someone bulk up ki in HNK we usually see their aura or some other visual cue, but that's not what happened there, Kenshiro muscle mass just increases and he becomes stronger simple as that.
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The more I read into the "Most people only use 30% of their physical capacity, but this technique allows Kenshiro to unlock the full 100%", the more it feels like the Tenryu Kokyu Hou is not meant to be a multiplier - at least not one to use in powerscaling.
First, normal humans in Hokuto No Ken verse are not even close to Kenshiro level, so the 30% jump to 100% is going to mean something else, like the potential power to unlock new techniques.
Some moves (and just his physiques in general to a degree unspecified) do benefit from TKH (as stated in the description of "Hokuto Seven Stars of Death"), and that is actually an example of how TKH unlocks or power up other moves, which is a matter of variety and not an absolute figure.
Just because the user assigns a percentage number does not mean the figure has to be used literally. We have cut that out in the "thousand hand strike" and "quintillion hand strike" and such. Otherwise we are falling into the fallacy of figure of speech (?).
First, normal humans in Hokuto No Ken verse are not even close to Kenshiro level, so the 30% jump to 100% is going to mean something else, like the potential power to unlock new techniques.
Some moves (and just his physiques in general to a degree unspecified) do benefit from TKH (as stated in the description of "Hokuto Seven Stars of Death"), and that is actually an example of how TKH unlocks or power up other moves, which is a matter of variety and not an absolute figure.
Just because the user assigns a percentage number does not mean the figure has to be used literally. We have cut that out in the "thousand hand strike" and "quintillion hand strike" and such. Otherwise we are falling into the fallacy of figure of speech (?).
Can you explain the logic?
Stefano4444
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Forget it, i probably got confused while reading the scaling draft, with all the keys had Kenshiro.
Jagi (Scales to the Small Country level Nuke) < Pre-Toki’s Bind | Pre-Shu's call | Pre-Timeskip | Pre-Awakening | Pre-Seals 30% Ken < 30% Raoh = Post-Toki’s Bind | Pre-Shu's call | Pre-Timeskip | Pre-Awakening | Pre-Seals 100% Ken < 100% Raoh (3.33x times stronger than 100% Ken) = Souther = Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's call | Pre-Timeskip | Pre-Awakening | Pre-Seals 100% Ken = Falco = Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's call | Post-Timeskip | Pre-Awakening | Pre-Seals 30% Ken (Scales to the Multi-Continent statement) < Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's call | Post-Timeskip | Pre-Awakening | Pre-Seals 100% Ken (3.33x times stronger than his 30% form) < Kaioh <= Matouki Hyoh < Post-Awakening Hyoh (at least 3.33x times stronger than before) <= Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's call | Post-Timeskip | Post-Awakening | Pre-Seals 30% Ken < Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's call | Post-Timeskip | Post-Awakening | Pre-Seals 100% Ken (3.33x times stronger than his 30% form) = Post-Toki’s Bind| Post-Shu's call | Post-Timeskip | Post-Awakening | Post-Seals 30% Ken = Amped Kaioh < Unleashed Kaioh <= Post-Toki’s Bind | Post-Shu's call | Post-Timeskip | Post-Awakening | Post-Seals 100% Ken (3.33x times stronger than his 30% form).
Like how the **** you can understand shit with all those Post and Pre on Kenshiro? Why not have just a single Pre/Post instead of 5 keys, something like this.
Jagi (Scales to the Small Country level Nuke) < Pre-Toki’s Bind 30% Ken < 30% Raoh = Post-Toki’s Bind 100% Ken < 100% Raoh (3.33x times stronger than 100% Ken) = Souther = Post-Shu's Call 100% Ken = Falco = Post-Timeskip 30% Ken (Scales to the Multi-Continent statement) < Post-Timeskip 100% Ken (3.33x times stronger than his 30% form) < Kaioh <= Matouki Hyoh < Post-Awakening Hyoh (at least 3.33x times stronger than before) <= Post-Awakening 30% Ken < Post-Awakening 100% Ken (3.33x times stronger than his 30% form) = Seals Lifted 30% Ken = Amped Kaioh < Unleashed Kaioh <= Seals Lifted 100% Ken (3.33x times stronger than his 30% form).
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The potential power to unlock new techniques? really? where are you getting these things from? there's nothing in the series that even indicates this notion
This is an absolute headcanon, anyone who read HNK knows that there's absolutely no correlation between TKH and other hokuto moves, also this was never stated in the series.
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Yeah this looks much better, Thanks.
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This works better in terms of presenting a scaling chain sure.
So in the new scaling chain only Jagi scale from his own nuke feat but everyone else listed started to scale from the water evaporating statement... right?
Stefano4444
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Seen to be the case, but technically we could still downscale Jagi to the other brothers since while the weakest of the family its unlikely that the gap in strength its that big.
Stefano4444
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By the way, seeing how many important power ups Kenshiro seen to have got during the series, it may be necessary for his profile to add more keys since currently he only had keys for his Seals and no keys for Toki's Bind or the Timeskip.
Anyway, i also updated my previous take on the scaling, where basically everyone should ended up at High 6-A.
The only thing left its to determinate is if the 30% - 100% should be consider literally a 3.33333333 power/speed multiplier or not.
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What are the reasons to upgrade everyone to Multi-Continent level? in my understaning the only ones who should be High 6-A are
Kenshiro, Raoh, Toki, Kaioh, Hyoh, Han, Fudou, Juza, Shachi, Falco, Souther and probably Ryuken, since Pre-Toki’s Bind Kenshiro was infinitely weaker than a 30% Raoh, i think all the other characters should scale to Jagi's nuke feat at least for now. But what do you think?
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Also Hokuto fighters need to have Soul Manipulation on their profile too, due to the fact that Kasumi Kenshiro was able to send his opponents souls to the afterlife with a Hokuto technique in the latest translated chapter of Souten no Ken Regenesis.
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That seems fine to me.
FoxySonicMaster108
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I don’t see why Jagi and Amiba would even scale to Multi-Continent level, especially Amiba considering he got dispatched super easily.
I’d say that looks fine.
Stefano4444
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Souther fought Raoh to a draw and 100% Kenshiro, Shun should scale to both Souther and Kenshiro and Ryuga did fought Kenshiro (not sure which version).
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We could always look at the DA calc I found for Jagi's nuke surviving.
In fact I think the guy added another end to it:
Or the DA calc for Kasumi's Soryu Tenra:
www.deviantart.com
In fact I think the guy added another end to it:
Or the DA calc for Kasumi's Soryu Tenra:
Soryu Tenra's power (Hokuto no Ken) by Kirito352 on DeviantArt
www.deviantart.com
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