Fist of the North Star General CRT

[Silvervigilant]

... so what? In what universe is this definitive proof of EE?

And I just gotta take your word for it that Ken actually used his ultimate technique, which he didn't use against people who almost killed him like Falco and Hyoh on some fodder ass grunt? Him using Ryuga's technique is the more likely option, Ken using MT on a random guy makes objectively 0 sense given Ken's character and what we are shown, get over it.

e-e-eh? And again, Ken would NEVER use Muso Tensei on a guy like ******* SOLIA, he didn't use it on Falco ffs why would he use it on goddamn fodder ass SOLIA?

He used on Solia, because Solia was evil as hell, Falco on the other hand wasn't, when Ken fought against Falco, he did not want to kill him, all he wanted was honorable fight, hell he even disabled his own leg, obviously he would not use something deadly as MT.

"almost every martial artist does" >Procedes to show only a single instance of it happening from 1 guy who uses a martial art that Ken had literally 0 possibility of knowing at that point in time

There is more instances, but I am in no mood for search them now.

The lighting up of the hands is Gento's whole ******* point, the successor of Gento is literally called "the man with the shining hands" ffs, almost every Gento technique refers to "light" and "shining". And even if we accept you (wrong) assumption that light coming from the hands is not a trademark of Gento and is shared among other martial arts, can you show me A SINGLE instance of this happening with Muso Tensei

As i said Gento fighters uses light in their hands, but so do others MA

This power doesn't exist on the wiki, and Non-Existent physiology is more than appropriate

I know it doesn't exist, but it should, because is the one that makes most sense to describe something as vague as Musou Tensei.

 

[Silvervigilant]

Let's not derail this now, I'll make a dedicated thread in the future, now let's focus on the feats

Ok

 

[Antvasima]

Let's not derail this now, I'll make a dedicated thread in the future, now let's focus on the feats

Agreed.

 

[Jasonsith]

@DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Ugarik @Wokistan

Any opinion? (getting another mod to approve in case things get indecisive)

 

[Twellas]

What? About Muso Tensei? I think we both agreed that I'll do a CRT in the future, as to not derail this thread.

Any news about the Raoh calc/lightning one?

 

[Antvasima]

@DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Ugarik @Wokistan

I am just sending an extra notification, in case Jason's did not work.

 

[DMUA]

I'm pretty sure literally all of these feats are just people talking up their attacks as opposed to actually FTL stuff, or it just straight up being a punch as opposed to light. I'm really confused as to how this conversation got far enough that calc group was pinged

That said, Jason's in fact did not work

 

[Twellas]

I'm pretty sure literally all of these feats are just people talking up their attacks as opposed to actually FTL stuff, or it just straight up being a punch as opposed to light. I'm really confused as to how this conversation got far enough that calc group was pinged

We're not really talking about the OP anymore, the OP has 1 valid speed feat that is currently being calc'd (the lightning one) and after that i brought up a bunch of AP feats that needed calc'ing. The topic of Muso Tensei not actually giving EE also came up, but we decided that it would be better to save that for a future thread

 

[Twellas]

Now that I think of it, the calc staff might be helpful in determining the interpretation of the lightning feat, since we had kind of a problem trying to understand it properly, here's my take on it:

What I mean is that I think you're making this more complicated than it has to be, we can (and should, since it's the more straight-forward interpretation and requires almost no interpretation) simply say this:

Liu removes his cape= lightning comes down.
He's alone for 1 pannel and in the meantime the same lightning is covering distance (it stays in frame the whole time with a fairly consistent angle, there is no reason to assume it's a different lightning in every pannel);
we can assume that in the timespan between the pannel in which Liu removes his cape and the one in which he notices him, Ken has jumped from the ground to the top of the rock (It's a low end assumption, we clearly see from the previous pannels that Ken was nowhere in sight and Liu would have sensed him if he was this close to begin with, but since we have no way of truly knowing how much distance Ken traveled between those pannels, saying that he merely jumped from the ground to the top is reasonable) which is about as tall as the temple; while this is happening, the same lightning from the beginning is still traveling.
After that, the lightning hits the ground.

I don't know how "scientifically sound" this interpretation is, but it seems to me to be by far the most straight forward; alternatively, if you really wanna wank it, we can say that the lightning hit the ground right after Liu removed his cape and Ken actually outran the return stroke, which might make sense, actually.

 

[DMUA]

after that i brought up a bunch of AP feats that needed calc'ing

what exactly is wrong with Jagi's feat?

 

[Twellas]

I'm pretty sure literally all of these feats are just people talking up their attacks

tbf, "talking up their attacks" is not a thing for high tiers in HNK, the "light" stuff is also accurate, because the martial art in question is characterised by light coming out of the user's hands, but it's just a fist covered in light

 

[Twellas]

what exactly is wrong with Jagi's feat?

I noticed that Raoh's feat is missing a huge split caused alongside the hole (the hole was already calculated) which might boost the result significantly
I brought up a feat of Ken and Falco splitting the sky (which seems to be island level) and Ken reverting a waterfall (kinda useless)

 

[DMUA]

it would have to be a 3 orders of magnitude kind of significant to actually raise the rating

 

[Twellas]

The split is so big compared to the hole that was calculated that said hole is difficult to spot

 

[DMUA]

It's still pretty narrow, which cripples the speed which cripples the result.

 

[Twellas]

Also I'm pretty sure Jagi's calc doesn't take take surface area into account

 

[DMUA]

The nuke was dropped directly on top of him. It would barely be a 1% difference if calculated.

 

[Twellas]

It's still pretty narrow, which cripples the speed which cripples the result.

I'm not even gonna pretend I understand what that means, but if it's something about timeframes, it's the same as the hole's

 

[Twellas]

The nuke was dropped directly on top of him. It would barely be a 1% difference if calculated.

there's actually no evidence of this, the most we have is some shrapnel that suggests it was dropped near him (1, 2 feet at absolute most), the calc assumes that it was point blank, not literally on top of him

 

[DMUA]

it being dropped a foot away would still get way too much of a majority of the yield to bother. Heck, pretty sure at that distance the math would break in such a way that the result is actually higher.

I'm not even gonna pretend I understand what that means, but if it's something about timeframes, it's the same as the hole's

Distance. The split is nowhere near as wide, thus the amount of distance crossed in that time and speed is much lower.

 

[Twellas]

Distance. The split is nowhere near as wide, thus the amount of distance crossed in that time and speed is much lower.

I get it, but I mean, Falco and Ken's feat, which is very similar, is Island Level by itself, and even if it's not an upgrade I don't see a reason not to calc it and make it more accurate

 

[Twellas]

The big one is the lightning one tho, this is the one that needs to be discussed

 

[Jasonsith]

The big one is the lightning one tho, this is the one that needs to be discussed

And that I have made calculations on

 

[Twellas]

Oh ok, you calculated both the return-stroke interpretation and the "normal" one, perfect, now I guess we should decide which one is more appropiate and which end to use. I already gave my opinion in this regard, I think the second interpretation is the safest, but the return stroke one also has some merits, I presume

 

[Twellas]

btw, speaking of Raoh's feat, KLOL gave a different interpretation of the same feat and the result is significantly higher both in terms of speed (mach 1609, the "base calc's" is mach 178) and AP (180.39372215 gigatons compared to the og's 2.178 gigatons), does it hold any water? TBH the timeframe seems to be less convoluted in KLOL's version, It's in the comments of the already accepted calc, it would be great if someone gave it a look

 

[Antvasima]

And that I have made calculations on

@DMUA @DemonGodMitchAubin @Spinosaurus75DinosaurFan @Ugarik @Wokistan

Would you be willing to evaluate this please?

 

[Twellas]

btw I'm kinda overhauling their intelligence section because it's laughably barebones, I just added like 10 lines to Ken's with various feats and statements regarding his skill (which would be enough to place him and his peers at "Genius", but I digress)

 

[SamanPatou]

Extraordinary genius seems more appropriate than just genius, that's a lot of insane stuff, at least for Ken.

 

[Twellas]

They might all get it depending on what kasumi has, since they all upscale (the Hokuto guys I mean). i haven't finished Souten no Ken, but already in the first chapter he can do crazy shit like discerning the pH level of someone's skin by sniffing a piece of chalk they held for like 5 seconds 30 minutes prior. Also, he has a statement about "an army of 1000 men" not being able to stop him and fodderizing skilled combatants without even using Hokuto Shinken

 

[Silvervigilant]

Oh ok, you calculated both the return-stroke interpretation and the "normal" one, perfect, now I guess we should decide which one is more appropiate and which end to use. I already gave my opinion in this regard, I think the second interpretation is the safest, but the return stroke one also has some merits, I presume

I personally think that the return stroke one makes more sense

And talking about speed, there's a feat that needs to be revisited Fist of the North Star: Hyoh throws 10,000 punches

 

[Jasonsith]

Extraordinary genius seems more appropriate than just genius, that's a lot of insane stuff, at least for Ken.

Being very skilled in fighting means nothing in ruling a country, coordinating with allies, leading a large army or developing new technology or devising grand schemes.

But yeah Ken is super skilled in fighting and quick at learning.

 

[Twellas]

People like Yujiro get their intelligence stat out of mostly combat skill feats, and the definition of "Genius" here is "Individuals with an exceptional capacity for knowledge and intelligence, generally in one area of varying depth", that would of course include martial arts, especially when martial arts in HNK are far more complex than normal ones. BTW, Ken displays great knowledge of physics in countering the Anryū Tenha by using centrifugal force to counteract its effects

 

[SamanPatou]

The same can be said in the opposite way, there are several types of knowledge and intelligence, one doesn't necessarily have to be a genius in everything, otherwise many super scientist wouldn't be extraordinary because they don't have knowledge in other fields.
Even going only by current Ken's intelligence description he has: Insane combat skill and knowledge, super precision, super memory, super fast learning capabilities, adaptability and 1800+ years of experience by default and that he gained through his own life.

 

[Twellas]

frankly, even just mastering a martial art by seeing it once would be enough for a genius rating given how complex the martial arts Ken masters in 10 seconds are

 

[Antvasima]

He does seem to have superhuman intelligence to some degree, yes.

 

[Twellas]

Seriously, the pillar men from jojo have Extraordinary Genius and their feats can't hold a candle to Ken's

 

[Twellas]

Any news in regards to this

btw, speaking of Raoh's feat, KLOL gave a different interpretation of the same feat and the result is significantly higher both in terms of speed (mach 1609, the "base calc's" is mach 178) and AP (180.39372215 gigatons compared to the og's 2.178 gigatons), does it hold any water? TBH the timeframe seems to be less convoluted in KLOL's version, It's in the comments of the already accepted calc, it would be great if someone gave it a look

this

Oh ok, you calculated both the return-stroke interpretation and the "normal" one, perfect, now I guess we should decide which one is more appropiate and which end to use. I already gave my opinion in this regard, I think the second interpretation is the safest, but the return stroke one also has some merits, I presume

and this?

And talking about speed, there's a feat that needs to be revisited Fist of the North Star: Hyoh throws 10,000 punches

 

[SamanPatou]

Jasonsith made a blog with various feats

 

[Twellas]

that I already know, I'm strictly talking about those matter: 1) evaluating KLOL's take on Raho's feat (it would be a boost of 10x to speed and 90x to AP), 2) determining which interpretation/end to use for the Liu calc 3) evaluating that Hyoh feat (this one might influence number 2)

 

[SamanPatou]

Oh, ok, I thought all that stuff was somewhat tackled in the blog, due to the feats being present in it.