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So, if a understand correctly, the Liu Zongwu travel speed feat needs to be calculated right ?The OP shows a very clear lightning feat that would scale to the whole verse and might constitute an upgrade, we need to discuss/calc it
We need to come to a conclusion regarding a feat where a certain character attacks "100 quintillion times" in 1 pannel. We have to consider if the name of the technique is a bluff (basically impossible) an hyperbole (highly unlikely) or an outlier, because this feat would almost certainly be MFTL
We need to asses a statement from a character who outright states that he can punch "at the speed of light", it means little by itself, but if we consider the previous point valid...
@Jasonsith @Damage3245Any news? Is help needed for any of the calcs? Like more scans, or stuff like that?
while I can't comment about the validity of the method, I just wanted to say that the lightning that strikes after Kenshiro is shown is the same as the one that passed by when Liu removed his cape, there's no reason to assume it's a different lightning, given how it always stays in frame and the lightning strike after Kenshiro appears generates a big cloud that would have appeared before, had there been a lightning before that.The cloud splitting feat is being calculated and integrated into my blog. (Lots of variables are in it so polishing is taking a while but spoilers no tier is upgraded.)
The "thunder timing" feat is the only feat remaining which may possibly be not a hyperbole. (Spoilers: multiple lightnings were happening so determining time intervals can be tricky.But I will likely determine that as well by weekendI tweaked the method a bit and I have got some results a bit interesting)
I Agreewhile I can't comment about the validity of the method, I just wanted to say that the lightning that strikes after Kenshiro is shown is the same as the one that passed by when Liu removed his cape, there's no reason to assume it's a different lightning, given how it always stays in frame and the lightning strike after Kenshiro appears generates a big cloud that would have appeared before, had there been a lightning before that.
? It's the same feat, but I'm poiting out a "mistake" in your interpretationMore legit feats have been calculated.
I can agree to a degree that Kasumi did appear from the ground to a small stone hill the same height as a temple within a time frame the lightning strikes, and that it takes the same lightning striking time for Kasumi to jump up and Liu to remove his robes and looked and found Kasumi. I believe this has been properly reflected in my actual calculations.The random goon Ken instakills also busts through the same bunker in the previous scene. But you DO know that the Low 6-B tier comes from that Jagi feat, right?
? It's the same feat, but I'm poiting out a "mistake" in your interpretation
Actually I think this makes alot of sense.if you really wanna wank it, we can say that the lightning hit the ground right after Liu removed his cape and Ken actually outran the return stroke, which might make sense, actually.
Well i'm iffy on that, although makes sense, but Hokuto Shinken's pressure points are not your regular pressure points attacksHokuto Shinken being almost ineffective against people who are immune to pressure point
We can use manga feats. Just manga scans are unavailable yet. & if we use anime feats, Kenshiro pulverise M1 Abrams tanks no problem so Hokuto Shinken works totally fine on inanimate objects just no durability negation but sheer AP is still there.BTW, do we also use Anime only feats? 2 of the LS feats on Ken's profile are only in the anime iirc
Why no scans?We can use manga feats. Just manga scans are unavailable yet. & if we use anime feats, Kenshiro pulverise M1 Abrams tanks no problem so Hokuto Shinken works totally fine on inanimate objects just no durability negation but sheer AP is still there.
And since Jagi somehow survives Ken's pressure point attacks (although being killed by more pressure point attacks), learning Hokuto Shinken pressure point attacjks actually lessens the effect of pressure point attacks. I am sure we have manga scans and anime screen caps for such but we need someone to scan/cap
Okay I see the problem here. Let me clear up some misconceptions here and explain to you why musou tensei erases from existence. First let me clear up that musou tensei doesn't specifically erase atoms, it erases ones exist even but in the past people assumed atoms was what he meant by existence. Next I'll provide some examples of Kenshiro using musou tensei to erase things. First the one to explicitly hint about musou tensei having erasure existence was in fact from the prequel to HNK, in it we have a scene where Kasumi is unconscious and Liu Zongwu is about to finish him off.BTW, it always bugged me, where is it ever shown or stated that Muso tensei grants existence erasure? I've read the whole mainline series and nothing of this sort is even hinted at, is it from Souten or some other spinoff?
None of this is proof of EE, we know Muso Tensei physically harms the opponent who touches Ken, as shown against Raoh, that could very well be what Liu is refering toHowever Liu noticed Kasumi turned black and his fighters instinct told him to stay away from Kasumi and realized that he must be using musou tensei. Than goes in to say if her were plunge his fist into the unconscious body he would surely die.
The idea that Ken would use Muso Tensei against a literal no name guy when he didn't even use it against people like Falco and Hyoh is ridiculous, yes, he was "in a bad mood", but this changes nothing, there are plenty of times where Ken is enraged but still doesn't resort to Muso Tensei or hell, even use more than 30% of his full power, why would he EVER use the ultimate Hokuto Shinken technique on a random guy? What's more likely is that he used some subset of Nanto, like Ryuga's, which doesn't make the opponent bleed.When Kenshiro is awoken from his coma against Kaioh, he is harassed by this Fat shura lord and the poor chump decides to charge at him. However as stated above by Kenshiro he was not in a good mood in fact I would go to say he was semi bloodlusted indicated by the fact he would have spared him or cause him severe but no lethal pain. However instead he gets his arms erased. His arms were not cut nor blown up in anyway. They were completely erased to the point the fat lord didn't even realize he lost his arms. Note that is indeed a erasing attack as Gyoko's limbs are nowhere to be found and there is no blood spray, meaning his arms were completely destroyed.
The arm doesn't get erased, you can clearly see in the next pannel that Solia has a blody stump. What actually happened is that Ken used the Gento on Solia, which is why we see light radiate from his hand, which is typical for Gento users. "Then why did Solia say that "this is Hokluto Shinken" if Ken was using a Gento technique?" Solia was refering to the Hokuto Shinken's Suiei Shin, the technique that allows Ken to instantly master the opponent's martial art, and again, had Ken used MT against Solia, Solia would have 100% called it out (but Ken would never use MT against someone like Solia to begin with, so...).Next evidence is when Ken fights a Gento ko Ken user. Now to briefly describe Gento Ko Ken. Its a martial art that works by destroying enemies with ki attacks on the cellular level. So every attack they throw is meant to destroy at a cellular level and ignore durability. Now then Solia, the man Kenshiro is fighting is preparing to finish of Ken with a move, However as shown here the mans Arm and in bottom left panel you see the arm getting erased.
That's not necessarily Muso Tensei, Toki does the same thing, Raoh notes as much after first seeing Muso Tensei, it's just a way of moving and Muso Tensei looks similarThe only time he does that is when the story is trying to introduce a new move. Also his body in the first picture posted above shows Kenshiros aura flowing the same way musou tensei flows
They don't have passive "cellular erasing ki" to bypass, it's specifically said that Gento's cellular-erasure abilities are directly connected to the hands onlyPlus the fact Kenshiro was able to bypass Gento Ko Ken's cellular erasing ki means he was erasing on a much higher level i.e. Musou tensei.
As I said, this is the only thing even remotely close to proof, and even then it's inconclusive at most, since it could very well just be refering to the user himself, whose existence is effectively erased by being turned into literal nothingness.So the games provide clear cut "canon" definitions for the moves and gives them names and description as to what each move does. And within the game the description for musou tensei is it's able to erase people from existence (Both the first and sequel to the game have the exact same definition)
I don't think so, Liu was fearing for his life, not your regular damage.Ok so, the only thing even remotely close to being proof of existence erasure is the videogame thing, and even that's not conclusive, let me break this down:
None of this is proof of EE, we know Muso Tensei physically harms the opponent who touches Ken, as shown against Raoh, that could very well be what Liu is refering to
Kenshiro was pissed, and there plenty of times that Kenshiro overkills a guy that he could kill with just one finger, and that looks nothing like Ryuga's Taizan Tenrō KenThe idea that Ken would use Muso Tensei against a literal no name guy when he didn't even use it against people like Falco and Hyoh is ridiculous, yes, he was "in a bad mood", but this changes nothing, there are plenty of times where Ken is enraged but still doesn't resort to Muso Tensei or hell, even use more than 30% of his full power, why would he EVER use the ultimate Hokuto Shinken technique on a random guy? What's more likely is that he used some subset of Nanto, like Ryuga's, which doesn't make the opponent bleed.
"The arm doesn't get erased, you can clearly see in the next pannel that Solia has a blody stump." No, Kenshiro nearly erased his whole arm, the rest of what you said is just headcanonThe arm doesn't get erased, you can clearly see in the next pannel that Solia has a blody stump. What actually happened is that Ken used the Gento on Solia, which is why we see light radiate from his hand, which is typical for Gento users. "Then why did Solia say that "this is Hokluto Shinken" if Ken was using a Gento technique?" Solia was refering to the Hokuto Shinken's Suiei Shin, the technique that allows Ken to instantly master the opponent's martial art, and again, had Ken used MT against Solia, Solia would have 100% called it out (but Ken would never use MT against someone like Solia to begin with, so...).
There was no EE in the Raoh fight because both of them had Musou Tensei, While using MT Kenshiro basically get this abilityThat's not necessarily Muso Tensei, Toki does the same thing, Raoh notes as much after first seeing Muso Tensei, it's just a way of moving and Muso Tensei looks similar
They don't have passive "cellular erasing ki" to bypass, it's specifically said that Gento's cellular-erasure abilities are directly connected to the hands only
As I said, this is the only thing even remotely close to proof, and even then it's inconclusive at most, since it could very well just be refering to the user himself, whose existence is effectively erased by being turned into literal nothingness.
Add on top of all this the fact that the single most notable time in which Ken used Muso Tensei (against Raoh) there was absolutely no existence erasure, and I seriously have no idea how the concept of Muso Tensei giving EE came to be, which is weird, given how MT's EE is like the number 1 wincon that makes Ken broken.
And regular damage would bring an end to his life, you know? Saying that this is proof of EE is a huge reach. We are shown that MT causes big damage to the attacker in the fight with RaohI don't think so, Liu was fearing for his life, not your regular damage.
Yeah, but he never uses Muso Tensei on anyone besides the top tier baddies, saying that he would use it on a random shmuck is stupid. Yes, it looks exactly like Ryuga's technique, which is a cutting technique that doesn't make the opponent bleed until later, it's by far the more likely option compared to "yeah Ken used his ultimate technique which he barely uses against top tier fighters on a random guy and we simply aren't shown him using it despite it being a huge deal because... who knows".Kenshiro was pissed, and there plenty of times that Kenshiro overkills a guy that he could kill with just one finger, and that looks nothing like Ryuga's Taizan Tenrō Ken
My man what are you even talking about? Have you even seen the page? Solia only lost his forearm and his arm is spilling blood everywhere"The arm doesn't get erased, you can clearly see in the next pannel that Solia has a blody stump." No, Kenshiro nearly erased his whole arm
except the only one headcanoning here is you: Here's Raoh stating that Muso Tensei's movement looks like Toki's, and here's Ken's hand lighting up just like Gento while he strikes Solia, something that was NEVER shown to be the case with Muso Tensei but was well established to be Gento's main characteristic.the rest of what you said is just headcanon
Except Ken used MT on Raoh before he had achieved it himself, right before Raoh kidnaps Yulia, and we see that Raoh merely gets slashed by interacting with Muso TenseiThere was no EE in the Raoh fight because both of them had Musou Tensei
cause big damage is one thing, Liu was certain that he would dieAnd regular damage would bring an end to his life, you know? Saying that this is proof of EE is a huge reach. We are shown that MT causes big damage to the attacker in the fight with Raoh
Already explain, and again it was not Ryuga's technique.Yeah, but he never uses Muso Tensei on anyone besides the top tier baddies, saying that he would use it on a random shmuck is stupid. Yes, it looks exactly like Ryuga's technique, which is a cutting technique that doesn't make the opponent bleed until later, it's by far the more likely option compared to "yeah Ken used his ultimate technique which he barely uses against top tier fighters on a random guy and we simply aren't shown him using it despite it being a huge deal because... who knows".
My man what are you even talking about? Have you even seen the page? Solia only lost his forearm and his arm is spilling blood everywhere
Man, for someone who have seen the entire series you should know that lighting up hands is something that almost every martial artist in HNK does (1 2) not only the Gento onesexcept the only one headcanoning here is you: Here's Raoh stating that Muso Tensei's movement looks like Toki's, and here's Ken's hand lighting up just like Gento while he strikes Solia, something that was NEVER shown to be the case with Muso Tensei but was well established to be Gento's main characteristic.
As i said earlier i think this power fits alot more for MT KenExcept Ken used MT on Raoh before he had achieved it himself, right before Raoh kidnaps Yulia, and we see that Raoh merely gets slashed by interacting with Muso Tensei
If there's no additional proof for Muso Tensei granting EE, it should 100% be removed from every profile that lists it
Help from the community with this would be very appreciated.Most if not all of the links in HNK profiles lead to scan sites that have been taken down, yesterday I corrected some of them, but not all
... so what? In what universe is this definitive proof of EE?cause big damage is one thing, Liu was certain that he would die
And I just gotta take your word for it that Ken actually used his ultimate technique, which he didn't use against people who almost killed him like Falco and Hyoh on some fodder ass grunt? Him using Ryuga's technique is the more likely option, Ken using MT on a random guy makes objectively 0 sense given Ken's character and what we are shown, get over it.Already explain, and again it was not Ryuga's technique.
e-e-eh? And again, Ken would NEVER use Muso Tensei on a guy like ******* SOLIA, he didn't use it on Falco ffs why would he use it on goddamn fodder ass SOLIA?That doesn't change anything, and Ken use MT on Solia because he was getting hit
"almost every martial artist does" >Procedes to show only a single instance of it happening from 1 guy who uses a martial art that Ken had literally 0 possibility of knowing at that point in timeMan, for someone who have seen the entire series you should know that lighting up hands is something that almost every martial artist in HNK does (1 2) not only the Gento ones
This power doesn't exist on the wiki, and Non-Existent physiology is more than appropriateAs i said earlier i think this power fits alot more for MT Ken