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Fist of the North Star General CRT
- Thread starter Silvervigilant
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- #124
So, if a understand correctly, the Liu Zongwu travel speed feat needs to be calculated right ?
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The cloud splitting feat is being calculated and integrated into my blog. (Lots of variables are in it so polishing is taking a while but spoilers no tier is upgraded.)
The "thunder timing" feat is the only feat remaining which may possibly be not a hyperbole. (Spoilers: multiple lightnings were happening so determining time intervals can be tricky.But I will likely determine that as well by weekendI tweaked the method a bit and I have got some results a bit interesting)
The "thunder timing" feat is the only feat remaining which may possibly be not a hyperbole. (Spoilers: multiple lightnings were happening so determining time intervals can be tricky.
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ah btw, Ken also casually busts a bunker, given the context, it might have been built to tank the same nukes Jagi tanked
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while I can't comment about the validity of the method, I just wanted to say that the lightning that strikes after Kenshiro is shown is the same as the one that passed by when Liu removed his cape, there's no reason to assume it's a different lightning, given how it always stays in frame and the lightning strike after Kenshiro appears generates a big cloud that would have appeared before, had there been a lightning before that.
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I Agree
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More legit feats have been calculated.
And Kenshiro punching a bunker wall feat fits in more like no weaker than Jagi who can apparently tank a nuke so not very special calculation value.
Unless you have more feats for the underlings and "mid bosses".
And Kenshiro punching a bunker wall feat fits in more like no weaker than Jagi who can apparently tank a nuke so not very special calculation value.
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The random goon Ken instakills also busts through the same bunker in the previous scene. But you DO know that the Low 6-B tier comes from that Jagi feat, right?
? It's the same feat, but I'm poiting out a "mistake" in your interpretation
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I can agree to a degree that Kasumi did appear from the ground to a small stone hill the same height as a temple within a time frame the lightning strikes, and that it takes the same lightning striking time for Kasumi to jump up and Liu to remove his robes and looked and found Kasumi. I believe this has been properly reflected in my actual calculations.
A possible way to "highball" it is taking that lightning as a return stroke instead of a reversed leader, which should increase the lightning speed from 440,000 m/s to 10,000,000 m/s.
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What I mean is that I think you're making this more complicated than it has to be, we can (and should, since it's the more straight-forward interpretation and requires almost no interpretation) simply say this:
Liu removes his cape= lightning comes down.
He's alone for 1 pannel and in the meantime the same lightning is covering distance (it stays in frame the whole time with a fairly consistent angle, there is no reason to assume it's a different lightning in every pannel);
we can assume that in the timespan between the pannel in which Liu removes his cape and the one in which he notices him, Ken has jumped from the ground to the top of the rock (It's a low end assumption, we clearly see from the previous pannels that Ken was nowhere in sight and Liu would have sensed him if he was this close to begin with, but since we have no way of truly knowing how much distance Ken traveled between those pannels, saying that he merely jumped from the ground to the top is reasonable) which is about as tall as the temple; while this is happening, the same lightning from the beginning is still traveling.
After that, the lightning hits the ground.
I don't know how "scientifically sound" this interpretation is, but it seems to me to be by far the most straight forward; alternatively, if you really wanna wank it, we can say that the lightning hit the ground right after Liu removed his cape and Ken actually outran the return stroke, which might make sense, actually.
Liu removes his cape= lightning comes down.
He's alone for 1 pannel and in the meantime the same lightning is covering distance (it stays in frame the whole time with a fairly consistent angle, there is no reason to assume it's a different lightning in every pannel);
we can assume that in the timespan between the pannel in which Liu removes his cape and the one in which he notices him, Ken has jumped from the ground to the top of the rock (It's a low end assumption, we clearly see from the previous pannels that Ken was nowhere in sight and Liu would have sensed him if he was this close to begin with, but since we have no way of truly knowing how much distance Ken traveled between those pannels, saying that he merely jumped from the ground to the top is reasonable) which is about as tall as the temple; while this is happening, the same lightning from the beginning is still traveling.
After that, the lightning hits the ground.
I don't know how "scientifically sound" this interpretation is, but it seems to me to be by far the most straight forward; alternatively, if you really wanna wank it, we can say that the lightning hit the ground right after Liu removed his cape and Ken actually outran the return stroke, which might make sense, actually.
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Actually I think this makes alot of sense.
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Well i'm iffy on that, although makes sense, but Hokuto Shinken's pressure points are not your regular pressure points attacks
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We can use manga feats. Just manga scans are unavailable yet. & if we use anime feats, Kenshiro pulverise M1 Abrams tanks no problem so Hokuto Shinken works totally fine on inanimate objects just no durability negation but sheer AP is still there.
And since Jagi somehow survives Ken's pressure point attacks (although being killed by more pressure point attacks), learning Hokuto Shinken pressure point attacks actually lessens the effect of pressure point attacks. I am sure we have manga scans and anime screen caps for such but we need someone to scan/cap it.
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I could do it actually, just give me chapter numbers/what you want me to get and I'll do it.
Ken states that the "base" Hokuto Shinken can only nullify "low tier" techniques, Ken states that he wouldn't be able to nullify Toki's pressure-point attacks due to his mastery, for instance. Let's not forget how Ken got completely ****** by Souther just due to him having different pressure point placements, Souther himself states that Ken is stronger and more skilled but he wins anyway, destroying a tank really means nothing to someone who can casually bust nuclear bunkers, if anything it's a counter feat since it took him multiple kicks.
BTW, it always bugged me, where is it ever shown or stated that Muso tensei grants existence erasure? I've read the whole mainline series and nothing of this sort is even hinted at, is it from Souten or some other spinoff?
Ken states that the "base" Hokuto Shinken can only nullify "low tier" techniques, Ken states that he wouldn't be able to nullify Toki's pressure-point attacks due to his mastery, for instance. Let's not forget how Ken got completely ****** by Souther just due to him having different pressure point placements, Souther himself states that Ken is stronger and more skilled but he wins anyway, destroying a tank really means nothing to someone who can casually bust nuclear bunkers, if anything it's a counter feat since it took him multiple kicks.
BTW, it always bugged me, where is it ever shown or stated that Muso tensei grants existence erasure? I've read the whole mainline series and nothing of this sort is even hinted at, is it from Souten or some other spinoff?
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Why no scans?
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Okay I see the problem here. Let me clear up some misconceptions here and explain to you why musou tensei erases from existence. First let me clear up that musou tensei doesn't specifically erase atoms, it erases ones exist even but in the past people assumed atoms was what he meant by existence. Next I'll provide some examples of Kenshiro using musou tensei to erase things. First the one to explicitly hint about musou tensei having erasure existence was in fact from the prequel to HNK, in it we have a scene where Kasumi is unconscious and Liu Zongwu is about to finish him off.
However Liu noticed Kasumi turned black and his fighters instinct told him to stay away from Kasumi and realized that he must be using musou tensei. Than goes in to say if her were plunge his fist into the unconscious body he would surely die.
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When Kenshiro is awoken from his coma against Kaioh, he is harassed by this Fat shura lord and the poor chump decides to charge at him. However as stated above by Kenshiro he was not in a good mood in fact I would go to say he was semi bloodlusted indicated by the fact he would have spared him or cause him severe but no lethal pain. However instead he gets his arms erased. His arms were not cut nor blown up in anyway. They were completely erased to the point the fat lord didn't even realize he lost his arms. Note that is indeed a erasing attack as Gyoko's limbs are nowhere to be found and there is no blood spray, meaning his arms were completely destroyed.
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Next evidence is when Ken fights a Gento ko Ken user. Now to briefly describe Gento Ko Ken. Its a martial art that works by destroying enemies with ki attacks on the cellular level. So every attack they throw is meant to destroy at a cellular level and ignore durability. Now then Solia, the man Kenshiro is fighting is preparing to finish of Ken with a move, However as shown here the mans Arm and in bottom left panel you see the arm getting erased.
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Kenshiro states Hokuto Shinken will never vanish. Than as shown performs musou tensei, now your probably going to ask how i know that he used musou tensei. Well for starters not all moves are stated after every attack, I can provide you multiple moments in the series where Ken performs an iconic or recognizable move and does not yell out its name.
The only time he does that is when the story is trying to introduce a new move. Also his body in the first picture posted above shows Kenshiros aura flowing the same way musou tensei flows. Plus the fact Kenshiro was able to bypass Gento Ko Ken's cellular erasing ki means he was erasing on a much higher level i.e. Musou tensei.
Fist of the North Star has many unknown techniques that are not given an name within the manga. And indicated by others theirs plenty of different moves the HNK characters have at their disposal, they just don't always display it or even give it a name for that matter for us to know.
This is where the games come in. One of the the producers of this game, said in an interview about the how the game will be made and I quote " Hisashi Koinuma, the game's producer said that the staff aim to create a "new realistic feel" for the Fist of the North Star series while still being faithful to the original's roots."
Not only that but creators of HNK Buronson and Tetsuo Hara themselves were deeply involved with the project and have gone on record to express enthusiasm and support for the game.(he'll Tetsuo Hara even made a promo video sponsored by koei for the game.) So the games provide clear cut "canon" definitions for the moves and gives them names and description as to what each move does. And within the game the description for musou tensei is it's able to erase people from existence (Both the first and sequel to the game have the exact same definition)
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Because of this definition I can boldly say this is where the whole "Kenshiro erases atoms" rumor can from. Musou tensei in the manga and other mediums have said that it's made up of nothingness and that all life itself comes from nothingness. Kenshiro and Raoh didn't erase each other was because he and Ken's musou tensei cancelled each other out but still ended up erasing their clothes and leaving them in a critical state.
Kenshiro can choose whether to erase or phase through someone(as indicated by how kasumi wasn't conscious when he used musou tensei and his body had him set to erase anything that threatens him.) This should finally put to rest the misconceptions of musou tensei.
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Ok so, the only thing even remotely close to being proof of existence erasure is the videogame thing, and even that's not conclusive, let me break this down:
Add on top of all this the fact that the single most notable time in which Ken used Muso Tensei (against Raoh) there was absolutely no existence erasure, and I seriously have no idea how the concept of Muso Tensei giving EE came to be, which is weird, given how MT's EE is like the number 1 wincon that makes Ken broken.
Jeez, HNK profiles need an overhaul
None of this is proof of EE, we know Muso Tensei physically harms the opponent who touches Ken, as shown against Raoh, that could very well be what Liu is refering to
The idea that Ken would use Muso Tensei against a literal no name guy when he didn't even use it against people like Falco and Hyoh is ridiculous, yes, he was "in a bad mood", but this changes nothing, there are plenty of times where Ken is enraged but still doesn't resort to Muso Tensei or hell, even use more than 30% of his full power, why would he EVER use the ultimate Hokuto Shinken technique on a random guy? What's more likely is that he used some subset of Nanto, like Ryuga's, which doesn't make the opponent bleed.
The arm doesn't get erased, you can clearly see in the next pannel that Solia has a blody stump. What actually happened is that Ken used the Gento on Solia, which is why we see light radiate from his hand, which is typical for Gento users. "Then why did Solia say that "this is Hokluto Shinken" if Ken was using a Gento technique?" Solia was refering to the Hokuto Shinken's Suiei Shin, the technique that allows Ken to instantly master the opponent's martial art, and again, had Ken used MT against Solia, Solia would have 100% called it out (but Ken would never use MT against someone like Solia to begin with, so...).
That's not necessarily Muso Tensei, Toki does the same thing, Raoh notes as much after first seeing Muso Tensei, it's just a way of moving and Muso Tensei looks similar
They don't have passive "cellular erasing ki" to bypass, it's specifically said that Gento's cellular-erasure abilities are directly connected to the hands only
As I said, this is the only thing even remotely close to proof, and even then it's inconclusive at most, since it could very well just be refering to the user himself, whose existence is effectively erased by being turned into literal nothingness.
Add on top of all this the fact that the single most notable time in which Ken used Muso Tensei (against Raoh) there was absolutely no existence erasure, and I seriously have no idea how the concept of Muso Tensei giving EE came to be, which is weird, given how MT's EE is like the number 1 wincon that makes Ken broken.
Jeez, HNK profiles need an overhaul
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I don't think so, Liu was fearing for his life, not your regular damage.
Kenshiro was pissed, and there plenty of times that Kenshiro overkills a guy that he could kill with just one finger, and that looks nothing like Ryuga's Taizan Tenrō Ken
"The arm doesn't get erased, you can clearly see in the next pannel that Solia has a blody stump." No, Kenshiro nearly erased his whole arm, the rest of what you said is just headcanon
There was no EE in the Raoh fight because both of them had Musou Tensei, While using MT Kenshiro basically get this ability
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And regular damage would bring an end to his life, you know? Saying that this is proof of EE is a huge reach. We are shown that MT causes big damage to the attacker in the fight with Raoh
Yeah, but he never uses Muso Tensei on anyone besides the top tier baddies, saying that he would use it on a random shmuck is stupid. Yes, it looks exactly like Ryuga's technique, which is a cutting technique that doesn't make the opponent bleed until later, it's by far the more likely option compared to "yeah Ken used his ultimate technique which he barely uses against top tier fighters on a random guy and we simply aren't shown him using it despite it being a huge deal because... who knows".
My man what are you even talking about? Have you even seen the page? Solia only lost his forearm and his arm is spilling blood everywhere
except the only one headcanoning here is you: Here's Raoh stating that Muso Tensei's movement looks like Toki's, and here's Ken's hand lighting up just like Gento while he strikes Solia, something that was NEVER shown to be the case with Muso Tensei but was well established to be Gento's main characteristic.
Except Ken used MT on Raoh before he had achieved it himself, right before Raoh kidnaps Yulia, and we see that Raoh merely gets slashed by interacting with Muso Tensei
If there's no additional proof for Muso Tensei granting EE, it should 100% be removed from every profile that lists it
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cause big damage is one thing, Liu was certain that he would die
Already explain, and again it was not Ryuga's technique.
That doesn't change anything, and Ken use MT on Solia because he was getting hit
Man, for someone who have seen the entire series you should know that lighting up hands is something that almost every martial artist in HNK does (1 2) not only the Gento ones
As i said earlier i think this power fits alot more for MT Ken
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Help from the community with this would be very appreciated.
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... so what? In what universe is this definitive proof of EE?
And I just gotta take your word for it that Ken actually used his ultimate technique, which he didn't use against people who almost killed him like Falco and Hyoh on some fodder ass grunt? Him using Ryuga's technique is the more likely option, Ken using MT on a random guy makes objectively 0 sense given Ken's character and what we are shown, get over it.
e-e-eh? And again, Ken would NEVER use Muso Tensei on a guy like ******* SOLIA, he didn't use it on Falco ffs why would he use it on goddamn fodder ass SOLIA?
"almost every martial artist does" >Procedes to show only a single instance of it happening from 1 guy who uses a martial art that Ken had literally 0 possibility of knowing at that point in time
The lighting up of the hands is Gento's whole ******* point, the successor of Gento is literally called "the man with the shining hands" ffs, almost every Gento technique refers to "light" and "shining". And even if we accept you (wrong) assumption that light coming from the hands is not a trademark of Gento and is shared among other martial arts, can you show me A SINGLE instance of this happening with Muso Tensei?
This power doesn't exist on the wiki, and Non-Existent physiology is more than appropriate
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