Fish Boi vs Someone who can turn into fish (kinda) | Quagsire vs Shantae

[Winter]

Quagsire vs Shantae

Rules:
Wooper is used
Fight takes place at a beach
SBA
Speed Equal


The Best Boi: 0

A Pirate: 3

Wooper gets caught by a trainer and a rescue mission ensues: 0

 

[Imaginym]

Bumping for interest.

 

[CrackerVolley]

They both have good ability sets and I honestly have no clue what Wooper would actually start with, being a silly little dude without a care in the world and all that.

I should not that Shantae has around a 3.75-4.15x AP advantage to Wooper going off what they scale to, so that's a pretty big issue right off the bat.

 

[Winter]

They both have good ability sets and I honestly have no clue what Wooper would actually start with, being a silly little dude without a care in the world and all that.

I should not that Shantae has around a 3.75-4.15x AP advantage to Wooper going off what they scale to, so that's a pretty big issue right off the bat.

Wooper can ignore stat amps iirc, so Shantae stat amping to one-shot is a non-issue

 

[Lou_change]

Is this paldean or mainland wooper

 

[Winter]

Is this paldean or mainland wooper

Mainland

 

[CrackerVolley]

Yeah, I know about Unaware. I just wanted to point out that the AP is a significant issue.

 

[Winter]

Bump

 

[Imaginym]

How does Shantae fight, dare I ask? AFAIK, she's a platforming, belly dancing, shapeshifting genie who platforms & probably spins.

Does she Goomba Stomp? Hair smack? Shoot lasers? What?

Reason I ask is because touching Wooper is a bad idea.

Silver	When it walks around on the ground, it coats its body with a slimy, poisonous film.
Crystal	A mucous membrane covers its body. Touching it barehanded will cause a shooting pain.
Ruby Sapphire	WOOPER usually lives in water. However, it occasionally comes out onto land in search of food. On land, it coats its body with a gooey, toxic film.

Platinum	When walking on land, it covers its body with a poisonous film that keeps its skin from dehydrating.

Of course, Shantae might not know to do this unless said film makes Wooper suspicously slimily shiny enough that she catches on.

As for general behaviour:

LeafGreen	This POKéMON lives in cold water. It will leave the water to search for food when it gets cold outside.

Diamond	It lives in cold water, half burying itself in mud at the bottom to sleep.

Pearl	When the temperature cools in the evening, they emerge from water to seek food along the shore.

So yeah. Wooper's general behaviour seems to be preferring damp, moist areas -Sleeps in mud, comes out when it's cold/cool at night to search for food- & coats itself in a slimy/gooey, poisonous/toxic film that causes shooting pain when touched barehanded.

So if Shantae touches it with her bare flesh, she might recoil & shake her land like Jackie Chan after punching a wall.

Beyond that, I'd infer that since Wooper finds mud & cold temperature secure -& the Paldean form contrasts the Mainland/Johtonian form by specifically living on land- Wooper's probably going to go for any wet &/or covered spot, probably somewhere with water.

If it's on land, it'll just be using its poisonous film.

Interestingly, it gets the move Toxic by level-up, so that MIGHT be a possible result of touching it.
Beyond that, it might go for ranged if it's able to get comfortably off the land. Ranged moves include Water Gun, Mud Shot, Mud Bomb, Muddy Water, & Earthquake. If we include Egg Moves, there's also Acid Spray & Ancient Power. (Technically also Spit Up, but that's not only also an Egg Move, but only works if Stockpile is used prior.)

In theory, it could use Rain Dance, Mud Sport, Haze, or Mist to make the environment more to its liking.
Well, Haze & Mist assumes they'd moisten the area; Their Japanese names translate to "black mist" & "white mist", respectively.

In theory, it could go for melee attacks on land, since it'd have its slimy coating there.
Its melee attacks include: Slam... & Aqua Tail. If we include its Egg Moves, that includes: Body Slam, Counter, Double Kick, Power-Up Punch. IDK how Wooper does Power-Up Punch, but it gets it as an Egg Move in Ultra Sun & Moon only. I guess the devs thought about Quagsire without thinking about Wooper, lol?

 

[TheMassivlyUnkn0wn]

i misread quagsire as quagmire, it was an honest mistake

anyways shantae should start with her hair whips? its her main thing. but they're not really at a melee range (nothing stated that they are so) so I think she'd probably start with magic instead.
Shantae's magic is kinda basic I'll add, but there's some solid stuff there like the shield that grants her invincibility. So that'll help her.

Bubble and Mirror also reflect and absorb projectiles, so, while temporary, would negate all of Wooper's projectiles.
Melee combat would also go to Shantae imo, stat amps, 4x AP difference naturally. And she can just turn into an elephant and ram into Wooper so uh

yeah going shantae for now

 

[Imaginym]

i misread quagsire as quagmire, it was an honest mistake

anyways shantae should start with her hair whips? its her main thing. but they're not really at a melee range (nothing stated that they are so) so I think she'd probably start with magic instead.
Shantae's magic is kinda basic I'll add, but there's some solid stuff there like the shield that grants her invincibility. So that'll help her.

Bubble and Mirror also reflect and absorb projectiles, so, while temporary, would negate all of Wooper's projectiles.
Melee combat would also go to Shantae imo, stat amps, 4x AP difference naturally. And she can just turn into an elephant and ram into Wooper so uh

yeah going shantae for now

To Wooper's credit, Stat Amps are irrelevant due to Unaware.

As the profile rather strangely puts it:

• Unaware: When Quagsire is hit or hits, the statistics boosts of the opponent matters naught.

Strange in part because Wooper can have this Ability, too, yet they write it as if for Quagsire.

As Bulbapedia more technically puts it:
"If a Pokémon with this Ability uses a damaging move or is targeted by a damaging move, the other Pokémon's stat stages are ignored during damage and accuracy calculation.

Specifically, when a Pokémon with this Ability uses a damaging move, the evasion stat stages of the targets are ignored during accuracy calculation, and the Defense and Special Defense stat stages of the targets are ignored during damage calculation; when a Pokémon with this Ability is targeted by a damaging move, the accuracy stat stages of the attacking Pokémon are ignored during accuracy calculation, and the Attack and Special Attack stat stages of the attacking Pokémon are ignored during damage calculation."

Shantae would be wasting time if she stat amped herself, & giving Wooper at least 1 window of opportunity, & given she probably doesn't know about Wooper's ability, she won't know she's wasting time.

But when Shantae is over 3.75x stronger to begin with, & Wooper seems kind of passive, those opportunities might not matter much.

The best things Wooper could do are:

A. Shantae hits it physically, Wooper uses Counter to deal double the damage it took. However, considering Shantae has more Durability, she might handle this well. The Stamina matchup is unclear since Shantae lacks a justification. This is unlikely though, because a more technical, martial arts-like move like Counter that's an Egg Move seems OoC for Wooper.
B. Toxic. This inflicts Bad Poison, a distinct status from regular poison. In gameplay, regular Poison does 12.5% (Or one 8th) per turn, while Bad Poison starts at 6.25% (Or one 16th) per turn, & increases by another 16th every turn. (For both kinds of Poison, rounding down.)
So: Turn 1: 6% Turn 2: 12% Turn 3: 18% Turn 4: 24% Turn 5: 30% Turn 6: 36%, & so on & so forth....

Arguably, this could just be an unquantifiable increase in Poison severity every time it inflicts harm, assuming we ignore the game's numbers as metrics. In gameplay, this means that because 6+12+18+24+30+36=126, which is more than 100, Toxic KOs after just 6 instances of Bad Poison incrementation damage. One could stave it off with healing, but the damage increases.

Although, even then, Toxic working out requires assuming Wooper will try it -It does put a toxic film over its body on land, so this is semi-plausible- AND can survive long enough that about six incrementations of Bad Poison happen.

C. Yawn. In gameplay, 1 turn after the user uses this, the target falls asleep. This'd put Shantae on a clock to beat Wooper before she gets incapacitated, assuming she sleeps long enough or Wooper can beat a sleeping Shantae. Since it's just Wooper Yawning, it's kind of hard to avoid, too.

In theory, there's other stuff like Acid Spray, but that's dodgeable, kinda OoC (Wooper might not spray acid since it's not a Poison-type, & its film is also to keep it from dehydrating on land.) Stockpile (OoC), Amnesia (Doesn't counter Physicals.), or Recover, which might let it survive Shantae attacking, but only works out if she exhausts herself trying, since the AP gap means Wooper might not survive to do enough other than Recover if it can't find a way to avoid getting attacked again each time it heals.

(Toxic+Recover MIGHT work, I guess...?)

 

[CrackerVolley]

The only question is if we consider a Wooper to be tactful enough to use their hax against Shantae sooner rather than later.

 

[Imaginym]

The only question is if we consider a Wooper to be tactful enough to use their hax against Shantae sooner rather than later.

Intelligence: Below Average normally (Capable of coherent speech between other Pokémon, a degree of understanding of commands and social situations, and can solve minor puzzles, though still mostly driven by instinct), Gifted in battle (Should be superior to 1st Stage Pokémon and are able to consistently fight the likes of Machamp which have mastered all martial arts, as well as Alakazam)

It also gets Unaware as a Hidden Ability.

For what its worth, Paldean Wooper -AKA, ye-species-not-appearing-in-this-match- kind of has an Intelligence feat?

Violet	It’s dangerous for Wooper to travel alone. They line up in groups of three or four and help each other as they walk around the wetlands.

Yawn might be used early on because Wooper is KIND of carefree. Although the case for carefree-ness is more solid for its evolution, Quagsire. Though its usual preparation for sleep behaviour is burying itself in mud.
Toxic could happen because Wooper coats itself with an explicitly toxic film when on land.

Haze, Mist, Rain Dance, Mud Sport, might all be IC for making the environment more to Wooper's liking.

I can't see Wooper having the enthusiasm to do Encore, but some anime scenes -& fans- may disagree.


Hopefully that helps, sorry if it's too wordy.

 

[CrackerVolley]

As much as I love the Quagsire line, I'm not confident that it's really in character to go for the easy win options, so I should probably vote for Shantae sadly (although I do like her as well). Wooper is simply too silly.

At least they have some neat counters against invisibility thanks to EQ and Muddy Water.

 

[Imaginym]

As much as I love the Quagsire line, I'm not confident that it's really in character to go for the easy win options, so I should probably vote for Shantae sadly (although I do like her as well). Wooper is simply too silly.

At least they have some neat counters against invisibility thanks to EQ and Muddy Water.

Lol, classic.

Another case of haxy Pokemon being thwarted by their characterization & behaviour, lol.


But yeah. Shantae goes in for melee, & with her advantage to begin with, Wooper can't keep up with Recover, can't last long enough for Toxic, is unlikely to do enough with Counter even if it WAS in-character, & Yawn might not be likely enough.... (Oh, & I wouldn't be surprised if Shantae has some way around the obscuring Mist & Haze provide.)

It sounds like Shantae runs in, smacks with 3.85x advantage hair slap, & unless Wooper being Gifted in battle for being a Pokemon gives it enough skill to keep up, it gets trounced.
(In theory, if Shantae can feel pain through her hair, smacking Wooper's body, which it makes slimy on land, would likely inflicts its stinging pain onto Shantae. But IDK if she can feel pain from contact between her hair & stuff, & IDK if this is advantage enough.)


Unless someone wants to weigh in, I'm tentatively voting Shantae for now.

 

[Winter]

Would Pooper be more fair or would he still lose due to character?

 

[CrackerVolley]

I mean, they're probably more inclined to use Toxic, which is certainly something.

 

[Flashlight237]

From personal experience with one of the games, Shantae can rapid-fire her hair whips regardless of how much that breaks the laws of anatomy.

What I will say, Shantae is capable of harnessing the magic of other genies (as noted with Shantae and the Seven Sirens), and the big deal breaker to me is the Refresh Dance, which by the way, can actually handle freaking poison!: https://shantae.fandom.com/wiki/Refresh_Dance

Though whether she'll think to use it is the question. See, she isn't the brightest cookie at times. As cute and cuddly as Shantae is, she can be pretty stupid at times, having worn clothes covered in her own literal shit throughout the entirety of Ninja Mode all while thinking it's a new ninja outfit she ordered. While it's canonicity can be brought into question, what is certain is no person with a functional brain would go out of their way to do that, and I certainly ain't letting Shantae live that one down.

 

[Winter]

Who’s more skilled here? Wooper definitely has some combat prowess despite his goofy nature. This might be way closer if Wooper is smart enough

 

[Imaginym]

Who’s more skilled here? Wooper definitely has some combat prowess despite his goofy nature. This might be way closer if Wooper is smart enough

Wooper has Pokemon intelligence scaling, & its unclear if Paldean Wooper shares the Intelligence feats of Johtonian/mainland form Wooper from Pokedex entries.

Paldean Wooper's Pokedex entries:

Scarlet	After losing a territorial struggle, Wooper began living on land. The Pokémon changed over time, developing a poisonous film to protect its body.
Violet	It's dangerous for Wooper to travel alone. They line up in groups of three or four and help each other as they walk around the wetlands.

Johtonian/mainland Wooper's Intelligence/behaviour includes stuff like going out to search for food at night &/or when it's cool, burying itself in mud, &, when on land -presumably as opposed to when in water- coating itself in a slimy, toxic film to prevent its own dehydration.

There might be more Intelligence/Skill feats in the anime, but I haven't checked.
Perhaps a Wooper has battled there?

Also, 1 of its abilities is Unaware.

 

[Flashlight237]

Wooper has Pokemon intelligence scaling, & its unclear if Paldean Wooper shares the Intelligence feats of Johtonian/mainland form Wooper from Pokedex entries.

Paldean Wooper's Pokedex entries:

Scarlet	After losing a territorial struggle, Wooper began living on land. The Pokémon changed over time, developing a poisonous film to protect its body.
Violet	It's dangerous for Wooper to travel alone. They line up in groups of three or four and help each other as they walk around the wetlands.

Johtonian/mainland Wooper's Intelligence/behaviour includes stuff like going out to search for food at night &/or when it's cool, burying itself in mud, &, when on land -presumably as opposed to when in water- coating itself in a slimy, toxic film to prevent its own dehydration.

There might be more Intelligence/Skill feats in the anime, but I haven't checked.
Perhaps a Wooper has battled there?

Also, 1 of its abilities is Unaware.

So basically, it's a wild animal?

 

[Winter]

Wooper has Pokemon intelligence scaling, & its unclear if Paldean Wooper shares the Intelligence feats of Johtonian/mainland form Wooper from Pokedex entries.

Paldean Wooper's Pokedex entries:

Scarlet	After losing a territorial struggle, Wooper began living on land. The Pokémon changed over time, developing a poisonous film to protect its body.
Violet	It's dangerous for Wooper to travel alone. They line up in groups of three or four and help each other as they walk around the wetlands.

Johtonian/mainland Wooper's Intelligence/behaviour includes stuff like going out to search for food at night &/or when it's cool, burying itself in mud, &, when on land -presumably as opposed to when in water- coating itself in a slimy, toxic film to prevent its own dehydration.

There might be more Intelligence/Skill feats in the anime, but I haven't checked.
Perhaps a Wooper has battled there?

Also, 1 of its abilities is Unaware.

I’m not sure how this really describes his combat skill. As far as Wooper goes, he’d probably be comparable to Machop, who is proficient in all martial arts.

 

[Winter]

So basically, it's a wild animal?

He should still have some form of combat skill via scaling to Machop

 

[Imaginym]

Among other Pokemon. Pokemon skill scaling should be more diversified, & there's probably 1st Stage Pokemon other than Machop with skill feats/statements.

But in general, IIRC, many Pokemon take great enthusiasm in battling, even when it's not stated, & it's quite reasonable for them to battle one another. Anime shows them often having readiness for battles, IIRC, & in the games -Although some might dismiss it as game mechanics-, Affection shows them getting crits wishing, curing their own statuses to prevent their trainers worrying, etc. As well as Friendship increasing after significant battles like Gym Leaders, Elite Four, increasing for level-ups, decreasing for losing battles, & decreasing more severely for losing to much higher level opponents than closer leveled opponents.

There may also be some evidence on those matters via HG/SS Following Pokemon dialogue. (I don't think Serebii's documentation is complete.) Unfortunately, that dialogue is difficult to find documented, especially with the relevant context.

Of course, enthusiasm does not equal skill.
But the point is, for Pokemon, battling is quite natural to them, hence us giving them Gifted in battle.

In theory, one could go perusing the anime for Wooper's battles.

But I'm not sure that'd be sufficient to overcome the Stat advantage Shantae has anyway.