Fire Force Higher-Dimensional Existence Discussion/Possible Removal

[azontr]

Deceived is going to have a full-blown seizure if this keeps up.

 

[Makai641001]

I will tell you why it is strawmanning once I am back home.

Not an obligation we don’t want to see more of this ego war about who’s right you gave your stance on the op which is what you are asked to do.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What is an issue of addressing counter-arguments? I am with staying low 1-C and pain is against it. This is normal conversation, someone who started throwing insults and having an ego is not me in this instance

 

[PrinceofPein]

What is an issue of addressing counter-arguments? I am with staying low 1-C and pain is against it.

Another example of you not understanding me, I am against HDE, I have not even made a comment on the low 1-C yet. Low 1-C is a thing that will not stand I do not have to worry about it.

This is normal conversation, someone who started throwing insults and having an ego is not me in this instance

if you do not have a sense of self-importance, you will not act knowledgeable in things you are not

 

[Makai641001]

What is an issue of addressing counter-arguments? I am with staying low 1-C and pain is against it. This is normal conversation, someone who started throwing insults and having an ego is not me in this instance

Then i’m sure that you are a mature enough dude to avoid war with someone that is having an ego since it seems to be getting personal.

I mean a war of idea could be fun if it was without insults or attempts to discredit each others.

Please just don’t get banned

 

[ImmortalDread]

Another example of you not understanding me, I am against HDE, I have not even made a comment on the low 1-C yet. Low 1-C is a thing that will not stand I do not have to worry about it.

And I am with HDE, so i am pretty sure understand your opposition.

You can keep having this ego and insulting while debating, not that it will help your arguments.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Then i’m sure that you are a mature enough dude to avoid war with someone that is having an ego since it seems to be getting personal.

I mean a war of idea could be fun if it was without insults or attempts to discredit each others.

Please just don’t get banned

I won't be banned as long as I am not throwing back insults and having an ego.

 

[Alexander]

Pain,why are You keep trying to downscale the verse all the times?Even when it does not make sense of the things You Say.

 

[Duedate8898]

We necessarily need to do so Duedate, that's the logical consequence of allowing HDE to stay, the fact you're actively arguing we should just ignore this consequence because "someone above said they wish to make a full CRT about it later" doesn't make sense, and honestly is shocking coming from a mod. We shouldn't, and in actuality, we don't allow direct misinformation of this level to exist on our profiles. We can't just hand-wave it away like it doesn't matter, that's bullshit. Also the guy, @Maitreya, who said he'd make a full CRT about it later literally agrees with removing it currently because he actually understands you can't just leave blatant misinformation on the profiles just because he's revising it eventually in the future.

It's not blatant misinformation though. We understand that they are from a higher plane, HDE is accurate. What we currently don't have a solid grasp of is if that would give Low 1-C. We know HDE can stay because we have statements of HDE. That's literally all we need for it stay on the profiles. And I know the person whose planning the upgrade would prefer it removed, but my entire point is that we stopped giving tiers automatically to HDE a while ago, so we don't have to remove it. We have what we need for HDE to stay, and all removing it does is then make the profile further inaccurate because we literally know they have it, we have the scans for it on this very thread.

It doesn't matter if Shinra is Low 7-C to 1-B, either way we have the statements of Adolla being a higher plane, we have the statements of Evangelist being the embodiment of this plane, we have Shinra controlling this place and the world below. We have all we need for these characters to have HDE, and that's all we need for it to stay on the profile.

No power on this wiki automatically garners any tiers, HDE is not the exception.

We can't just leave it, it's our obligation to remove, or correct misinformation on our profiles, the fact you're fighting against me on this is something else.

If the HDE itself is accurate, then the logical consequence of that accuracy is the upgrading of 2-C characters to Low 1-C, there's literally no logical way to bypass that entailment Duedate, unless you believe this doesn't scale to one's stats, that's the only way.

We do not always follow logical consequence here, for a reason. Calc stacking is a logical consequence, but we try not to do that cause it can massively inflate ratings. The logical consequence of any character who goes above like mach 5, is that they have heat resistance cause of not catching fire, but we don't do that cause authors often ignore that bit. The logical consequence is that Striking Strength/AP should scale in proportion to speed, but we don't do that for everyone because speed and strength is separated often in fiction enough a lot of tiering wouldn't make sense. We separated dimensionality from AP because it was a shakey precedence built off of how DC worked or something like that.

And that's exactly what this is. Low 1-C isn't given just because it's the logical consequence of being on a higher plane over a 4D dimension anymore.

 

[ImmortalDread]

I agree with @Duedate8898 as well

 

[Arnoldstone18]

disagree on the HDE scaling to AP based on @Duedate8898’s points however, manipulating Adolla (if accepted to be 1-C) should grant 1-C AP. And I don’t really see what he says about this in his points, he only explains why HDE doesn’t grant a higher tier which I obviously agree with

 

[LordGinSama]

This very thread and those who are commenting only strengthens my point that you can have all the idea of what dimensional scaling "means." (None of us actually do btw otherwise we'd be doing much more important shit than arguing with sweaty nerds online about fictional characters.).


What matters is context, and the context here which even the most knowledgeable members of the verse agree that tier 1 Fire-Force makes no ******* sense contextually.




Argue all you want with any type of argument you can make, I still vehemently disagree with anyone in this verse being 5-D / Low 1-C. 2-C itself is still iffy as ****.



FMA Truth and The Earl Of Millennium of DGM still dick the verse.

 

[ImmortalDread]

LordGinSama, dimensional scaling has absolutely no relevance here and to be precise, it does not exist in VSBW.

 

[Alexander]

I still vehemently disagree with anyone in this verse being 5-D / Low 1-C. 2-C itself is still iffy as ****.

why people are saying ''anyone in the verse''only 3 characters in fire force are the ones who get the 2-C,in soul eater it is only 4

 

[LordGinSama]

LordGinSama, dimensional scaling has absolutely no relevance here and to be precise, it does not exist in VSBW.

Again, let me introduce you to a little thing called "context."



Dread stop acting as if you have a higher understanding of this type of shit than the rest of us. You often talk down to others as if you have a PHD in quantum physics despite us both knowing that's simply not the case.



You have little to no clue behind the the context of which this thread is based on, ergo you shouldn't even be giving input. You can have all the knowledge in the world but if you don't know the proper context then none of us are going to listen to you. I'm gonna be succinct here, you need to quit this pseudo intellectual mindset of yours.

 

[ImmortalDread]

This has nothing to do with the context, you are simply talking about a concept that has no relevance in this thread and imply that we don't know what is dimensional scaling while this scaling does not even exist in the site, hence "qualitative superiority" has a purpose here.

Stop with the accusations.

 

[LordGinSama]

This has nothing to do with the context, you are simply talking about a concept that has no relevance in this thread and imply that we don't know what is dimensional scaling while this scaling does not even exist in the site, hence "qualitative superiority" has a purpose here.

Stop with the accusations.

 

[ImmortalDread]

What matters is context, and the context here which even the most knowledgeable members of the verse agree that tier 1 Fire-Force makes no ******* sense contextually.

And matter of fact, he is in agreement of low 1-C.

 

[Nierre]

well, ill be following this.

 

[Ped2018]

Dawg, where is deceived?

 

[LephyrTheRevanchist]

Dawg, where is deceived?

trying not to die from an aneurysm

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I feel like all this is due to some kind of misunderstanding or some shit. I literally don’t get what the issue is.

 

[SuperStar]

Dawg, where is deceived?

Lunch Break

 

[ImmortalDread]

Funny thing that the opposed side of this thread introduced "supposed requirements" and it got literally rejected in next thread.

So guys, I think, we should call staff members here, I agree with styling HDE and low 1-C

 

[PrinceofPein]

Funny thing that the opposed side of this thread introduced "supposed requirements" and it got literally rejected in next thread.

So guys, I think, we should call staff members here, I agree with styling HDE and low 1-C

you really do have a problem with understanding stuffs, stop commenting for christ sakes, this is what DT said

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

So tell me can the adolla be HDE in proper mathematical sense or just in transcendence sense? cause it is the latter, and I wanted to make it so even transcendence could grant you HDE but somehow you think DT argument helps FF. Dread let me say this again, stop commenting if you do not know about something. In fact my requirement is what may have given FF a chance at HDE, and not the other way around, but you simply could not understand that.

The reason for Adolla current HDE is cause it was called a Higher Plane twice, which is a form of transcendence but even that means jack here, but let us say we have more prove that it transcends the humans ontologically, then yes FF gets HDE but currently, they do not even qualify.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You really have time to comment here, rather on other thread? Finish the other thread since your counter-points here are invalid and based on nothing as long as your requirements you presented has no basis here.

 

[PrinceofPein]

You really have time to comment here, rather on other thread? Finish the other thread since your counter-points here are invalid and based on nothing as long as your requirements you presented has no basis here.

I really do not care about the other thread, it is not a hill I want to die on. Either way FF loses HDE.
Sure ignore the way you said nonsense again

 

[ImmortalDread]

How is FF losing HDE? I don't recall we have a staff consensus. You seem to be very confident.

 

[PrinceofPein]

How is FF losing HDE? I don't recall we have a staff consensus. You seem to be very confident.

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

Quoted from DT

 

[ImmortalDread]

He did not even talk here, not sure what you are even implying.

 

[PrinceofPein]

He did not even talk here, not sure what you are even implying.

Dude read for God's sake

tell me can the adolla be HDE in proper mathematical sense or just in transcendence sense? cause it is the latter, and I wanted to make it so even transcendence could grant you HDE but somehow you think DT argument helps FF. In fact my requirement is what may have given FF a chance at HDE, and not the other way around, but you simply could not understand that.

The reason for Adolla current HDE is cause it was called a Higher Plane twice, which is a form of transcendence but even that means jack here, but let us say we have more prove that it transcends the humans ontologically, then yes FF gets HDE but currently, they do not even qualify.

Also you went from DT comment proves that FF qualifies to "DT did not comment here" lol

 

[BadSystems]

He is talking about DT's message on that other thread you had just mentioned, ImmortalDread

Anyway, agree with removal of HDE based on the evidence provided by PrinceOfPein, HDE is intended only for characters who are higher dimensional in the proper mathematical way

 

[ImmortalDread]

And how this will give you right to actually conclude the thread? Since this is the current discussion.

How is FF losing HDE? I don't recall we have a staff consensus. You seem to be very confident.

I really do not care about the other thread, it is not a hill I want to die on. Either way FF loses HDE.

 

[Alexander]

Anyway, agree with removal of HDE based on the evidence provided by PrinceOfPein, HDE is intended only for characters who are higher dimensional in the proper mathematical way

i wonder,then what is with adolla then?what another space in the same dimensional plane,even if it is literraly not that

 

[PrinceofPein]

And how this will give you right to actually conclude the thread? Since this is the current discussion.

No the current discussion was how you said DT replies to me, means that FF gets to keep their HDE and I called you out on it, nothing more.

And yes I am confident that FF loses HDE since it is against our standards, so unless you want to change the standards or pass something against the standards, it is not holding

 

[ImmortalDread]

Against which standards? The requirements that have no basis?

 

[PrinceofPein]

Against which standards? The requirements that have no basis?

The HDE page is for entities that are higher-dimensional in a proper mathematical sense, not simply for all Tier 1 beings/constructs, so neither of these three criteria qualify.

This was DT's comments and I am sure you can read it properly, just cannot comprehend it
it means there is no HDE here, since this is not a higher dimension in the mathematical sense. Literally my points could have given FF a chance but you cannot even understand something like that.

 

[ImmortalDread]

DT did not evaluate this thread, again you got no right to conclude the thread.

 

[Maitreya12]

I haven’t even dropped my arguments on why Adolla is or isn’t HDE yet either

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ya and pain simply conclude the thread