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Fire Force Higher-Dimensional Existence Discussion/Possible Removal

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WTF said:
Do you plan to update the verse at another time? it's weird to read your comment, when you created the verse cosmology blog 😳😳
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Another time lad. Right now the profile pages are actual doo doo so I’d like to first rework them, fix them up, and make them look actually presentable before just slapping on a tier 1 rating just for the sake of upgrading the verse.

We can do upgrades later…
 
Duedate8898 said:
What exactly is the argument here?
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What is this in relation towards?.

The current discussion going on between mostly Pain and Dread, which literally has nothing to do with what's being argued about in the OP or the proposals provided in the OP itself?.
 
It has literally everything about OP, it's not like we are talking about Naruto
 
Deceived3596 said:
I'm solid, i'm rock hard 🍆.

There are two proposals in the OP, either we remove Higher D Existence from both profiles because of inconsistencies, or we upgrade everyone who currently scales to 2-C, to Low 1-C.

What's your opinion on this issue?
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remove
 
low 1-C fire force sounds incredibly based

i dont think evangelist is even hde in first place so haumea fusing with them and banshoman being on an equal existence would still result in 3D
 
Duedate8898 said:
In that case, it seems pretty clear cut that they have HDE.
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there’s evidence they have HDE, even more than what was shown here, the issue is that in order to apply the ability they’d need to be upgraded to low 1-C and that would take a whole big CRT on its own.

It’s better to remove the rating for right now, and apply better ratings and justifications at a later time. When I get the chance to fix up these goddamn profiles.
 
They don't have to be Low 1-C to have HDE. As long as the scans for HDE hold up then I don't see much point in getting rid of them cause that's the truth of the matter.

I disagree with removing HDE. If there's a wish to upgrade cause of it, then that's a whole nother matter that can be handled in a separate thread when the upgrade is to be attempted.
 
Duedate8898 said:
In that case, it seems pretty clear cut that they have HDE.
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To clarify
PrinceofPein said:
Stated to embody or contain higher dimension or stated to be higher dimensions means jack, since you have to prove either of these
1. There is a R>F difference
2 There is an ontological difference
3. They are higher spatial dimensions.
4. Larger in such a way that every other thing is infinitesimally small.
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So, it is not HDE
 
PrinceofPein said:
So, it is not HDE
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What you're describing is a matter of AP, not ability/physiology. The world of Adolla is called a higher plane, and is referenced twice as a higher plane within the setting. There's little to argue with here in that this is a higher dimension, and if characters originate from it and/or embody it, then they should qualify for HDE.
 
Ya I don't get from where Pain is getting those requirements. I am asking for source.
 
Duedate8898 said:
What you're describing is a matter of AP, not ability/physiology. The world of Adolla is called a higher plane, and is referenced twice as a higher plane within the setting. There's little to argue with here in that this is a higher dimension, and if characters originate from it and/or embody it, then they should qualify for HDE.
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Higher dimensions has nothing to do with AP, I never said it does.
HDE has to do with a character who is actually higher dimensioned and those are the requirements for it.
Read the HDE page, you need to be of the extra axis greater than R^R^R in other words R^R^R^R. And how do you get that?
1. There is a R>F difference
2 There is an ontological difference
3. They are higher spatial dimensions.
4. Larger in such a way that every other thing is infinitesimally small.

Just the way HDE works nothing to do with AP, it is on the page
 
Stop this madness….

You’re literally turning me into the Kishin as we speak with this

3YpAYGk.jpg
 
ImmortalDread said:
Pain is ignoring it making his requirements questionable.
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Just because you don't understand or knowledgeable about something does not make it wrong.
And I am not ignoring I answered all questions that are relevant.

Again read the HDE and R>F page.
 
You ain't helping your case. I read the HDE and nothing mentioned about your requirements.

Instead of insulting my intelligence, cite your sources.

Also, how is it not relevant when I ask for source of your claim?
 
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I'm always confused with this stuff. Isn't HDE atleast just having an extra axis of movement (where it would not be significant enough to give a tier) rather than requiring R>F over dimensions or qualitative superiority.
 
ImmortalDread said:
You ain't helping your case. I read the HDE and nothing mentioned about your requirements.

Instead of insulting my intelligence, cite your sources.

Also, how is it not relevant when I ask for source of your claim?
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I am not insulting your intelligence just pointing out the obvious
In the HDE page, it says
when they exist as part of a system with a number of coordinates axes greater than our own, or in layman's terms, if they possess more than three dimensions.
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In a more layman's term since you do not understand this, when they possess 4 dimensions or more. In short, when they are higher dimensioned to 3D
So tell me how can a character be considered higher dimensioned based on our standards?
Those things I mentioned above.
 
There are more requirements for that.
HDE is a nature ability when someone is being higher dimensionality as in his physis

As the staff pointed out, it's been hinted many times that the character is question is indeed higher dimension.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
I'm always confused with this stuff. Isn't HDE atleast just having an extra axis of movement (where it would not be significant enough to give a tier) rather than requiring R>F over dimensions or qualitative superiority.
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You need qualitative superiority over 3 Dimensions, the moment you have an extra direction axis compared to 3-D, you are qualitatively superior to 3-D
ImmortalDread said:
There are more requirements for that.
HDE is a nature ability when someone is being higher dimensionality as in his physis
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Again, answer the question, how is someone Higher dimensioned to 3-D based on physics?
Before you claim I am insulting your intelligence since this is like playing a broken record.
ImmortalDread said:
As the staff pointed out, it's been hinted many times that the character is question is indeed higher dimension.
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it was said twice, "the evangelist is a higher plane being" the other time was a monologue describing adolla.
And that means jack, since you need to tell me the extra axis you saw in adolla or the extra dimension the evangelist possesed or how he has some sort of qualitative superiority over 3-Dimensions
And I already explained to @Duedate8898 why he is wrong.
Staffs knowledgeable on HDE should probably be called

Also @Deceived3596 the reason why they have HDE based on what I am reading is not cause they are superior to the universe but superior to humans, and that would still be wrong as there is qualitative superiority between adolla and humans.
 
PrinceofPein said:
Again, answer the question, how is someone Higher dimensioned to 3-D based on physics?
Before you claim I am insulting your intelligence since this is like playing a broken record.
Click to expand...
Why would it based on physics? The ability in itself is based more on theological and philosophical fiction's setting rather mathematical one.

Hell, i know more than 10 characters who got HDE through this.
PrinceofPein said:
it was said twice, "the evangelist is a higher plane being" the other time was a monologue describing adolla.
And that means jack, since you need to tell me the extra axis you saw in adolla or the extra dimension the evangelist possesed or how he has some sort of qualitative superiority over 3-Dimensions
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The author don't need to tell you anything. He already pointed out that adolla is a higher dimensionality. It's not my burden to prove negative.
 
ImmortalDread said:
Why would it based on physics? The ability in itself is based more on theological and philosophical fiction's setting rather mathematical one.
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This is a statement that shows that you did not read the page and you should probably commenting on things you know little about
here is the definition on page
A given object or entity is referred to as being higher-dimensional when they exist as part of a system with a number of coordinates axes greater than our own, or in layman's terms, if they possess more than three dimensions.
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Are axes and coordinates theology and philosophical settings?

not only that the page went on to explain further
Speaking in simple terms, a "dimension" can be considered an axis of movement and measurement, through which beings and objects can displace themselves throughout a given physical system. 1-dimensional beings would only be able to dislocate themselves to left and right across a single direction, while 2-dimensional beings would have an additional spatial axis inherent to them, and thus be able to move up and down as well. Finally, 3-dimensional beings like ourselves are able to displace themselves left and right and up and down, as well as forwards and backwards, encompassings parts of additional axes of space.
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are all these philosophical?
not only that the page went ahead

Mathematical Intuition​

Speaking in more rigorous terms, a "dimension" in a system can be most effectively equated to the real number line, which is itself the most basic example of a 1-dimensional coordinate space (commonly denoted as simply as ℝ), and contains bounded subsets (smaller, finite lines if you will) whose exact measurements can be taken by "pointing" at a real number represented as a specific point in the line (Example: A line with length 3 is a subset of the real number line, whose length is infinite)

In this context, adding another dimension to a given space is effectively adding another real number line in a different, perpendicular position, which is mathematically represented by continuous cartesian products of ℝ. For example, 2-dimensional space is represented by ℝ^2 (ℝ x ℝ), 3-dimensional space by ℝ^3, and so on and so forth.

In this context, measurements of positions in space are once again obtained by directing oneself at arbitrary numbers contained in the axes of the given expanse, thus obtaining one's own coordinates in it. Simplifying this case, one could also informally state that the "Dimension" of a space is the exact number of coordinates needed to specify any position within it.

Likewise, any n-dimensional object can be thought of as being a subset of a real coordinate space of corresponding dimension. Here is a good illustrative example of that.
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Which of those are philosphical or theological since that is the whole page, since when is "cartesian" a philosophy term? Not once was a philosophical or theological term mentioned, so which wiki page are you reading since I am sure we are not reading the same thing, you are probably in the wrong wiki page.
In fact the requirements I used to equate to what the HDE page says are the philosophical and theology based, nothing in the HDE page is like that
ImmortalDread said:
Hell, i know more than 10 characters who got HDE through this.
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not my concern, if I find them, I can make a CRT but this is FF
ImmortalDread said:
The author don't need to tell you anything. He already pointed out that adolla is a higher dimensionality. It's not my burden to prove negative.
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You should honestly stop replying here, Telling you to prove that the difference 'is qualitative' is a "positive" while if I am telling you to prove the difference 'is not qualitative' that is a "negative"
Please get these things right, it is getting annoying
 
PrinceofPein said:
You need qualitative superiority over 3 Dimensions, the moment you have an extra direction axis compared to 3-D, you are qualitatively superior to 3-D
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Huh??? If something is called like 200-D it won't get it a 1-B tier without elaboration on dimensional superiority, but it's still a 200-D space and any being who is called 200-D will still get that HDE but just not significant enough to scale to AP. Qualitative superiority is really only relevant for AP.
 
BestMGQScalerEver said:
Huh??? If something is called like 200-D it won't get it a 1-B tier without elaboration on dimensional superiority, but it's still a 200-D space and any being who is called 200-D will still get that HDE but just not significant enough to scale to AP. Qualitative superiority is really only relevant for AP.
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No Qualitative superiority has nothing to do with AP, you can be superior and higher dimensioned and still be weaker than a lower D being AP wise

Are higher-dimensional beings infinitely stronger than lower-dimensional equivalents?​

Unintuitive as that may be: Not necessarily, as a number of characteristics through which we quantify the strength or power of a character can remain unchanged when transitioning between higher and lower dimensions. For example: Mass is a quantity that is detached from the dimension of the object which it is inherent to, and unlike volume is not divided in units corresponding to each particular dimension (1-volume [length], 2-volume [area], 3-volume, 4-volume...). It is singular in nature and its units equally apply to all dimensions; whether it is distributed over an area or a volume only tells us about the span of space in which it is spread, not about the quantity itself.

As a consequence of that, much of the calculation methods which are used to measure strength apply equally to both higher and lower dimensions, as they do not care about the extra variables and often work with a single one of them. Examples of this are kinetic energy (Ek=0.5*M*V^2), force (F=M*A), work (W=F*d), and etc.

An intuitive example of that is found in the general definition of Work as defined in physics: In essence, as work itself denotes the energy applied to an object as it is displaced along a given path, the basic formula for calculating it only takes into account a single variable, and the path itself is treated as an one-dimensional object, regardless of the dimension of the space in which the action itself takes place.

Hence, a higher-dimensional entity can be both stronger or weaker than a lower-dimensional one, and thus, they are usually quantified based on their own feats, instead of dimensionality alone. If a character is merely stated to be higher-dimensional and simultaneously has no other feats to derive anything noteworthy from, then they are put at Unknown, and the same applies to lower dimensions as well.
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I really do not know where you guys are seeing your stuffs, and the HDE page is not so confusing that multiple interpretation can be used.

He is from a higher plane, does not mean someone has an extra axis compared to 3-D without further context, it is as simple as that.
 
PrinceofPein said:
No Qualitative superiority has nothing to do with AP, you can be superior and higher dimensioned and still be weaker than a lower D being AP wise

I really do not know where you guys are seeing your stuffs, and the HDE page is not so confusing that multiple interpretation can be used.

He is from a higher plane, does not mean someone has an extra axis compared to 3-D without further context, it is as simple as that.
Click to expand...
It's a higher dimension. Japanese raws use "高次元".
 
Duedate8898 said:
They don't have to be Low 1-C to have HDE. As long as the scans for HDE hold up then I don't see much point in getting rid of them cause that's the truth of the matter.
Click to expand...
While it's true that you can have an x dimensionality of HDE without having that level of dimensionality for AP, that isn't the case here, it's necessarily so it would scale to The Evangelist's AP, and such everyone else's for a multitude of reasons.

1. The Evangelist is explicitly stated twice that she's the physical representation of Adolla, or the "collective unconscious". This is important to note since if you're the physical embodiment of an entire dimension, you'd, of course, physically scale to that dimension, which in our case would be 5-D, thus making her physically, both dimensionally and statistically, 5-D. We also give characters who embody a realm, dimension, structure, the level of AP in which the dimension's size/dimensionality exist as. An example of this would be The Outsider from Dishonored.

2. If we continue considering Adolla to be a mathematically higher-dimension compared the main Fire Force universe, then the characters that scale to 2-C currently would necessarily need scale to Low 1-C, regardless of if The Evangelist and Shinra have HDE or not. Since the reasoning for 2-C is based around fusing two separate space-times together, one being from the main Fire Force universe and the other being from Adolla. If one space-time is 4-D, and the other's 5-D, then the character in question who's doing this feat needs to have 5-D power to actively fuse, and manipulate a 5-D structure.

The only possible way to reconcile this without removing HDE from Adolla, and such Shinra and The Evangelist is to consider the feat non-applicable to stats and downgrade every single 2-C character in the series. That's literally the only conceivable way you can argue this wouldn't scale to AP while keeping Adolla's HDE.

I didn't think I needed to explained this since a lot of it is either already explained in the OP itself (which seemingly next to nobody actually read in-depth) or just required baseline intuition about the verse's AP scaling. But I guess I was wrong.
 
Deceived3596 said:
Snip
Click to expand...
My argument isn't that it wouldn't scale to stats, my argument here is that we don't need these characters to scale to Low 1-C in order for them to have HDE. Simply put, whatever the AP ends up being, they are higher dimensional people just full stop. We have the blatant statements/feats, that's the best we can ask for when it comes to abilities.

I don't much care to give a rating to it right now, because as someone above pointed out they wish to make a full CRT on the Statistics later since there's more to flesh it out they believe.

This thread is built on the idea that the only two outcomes is either we drop HDE or we upgrade AP, and I don't agree with that. We can also just leave it be for now, cause HDE itself is accurate. Now, if there's a wish to push an upgrade of some sort towards Low 1-C because of this being a higher plane, then that can be tackled but your reasoning for why we would upgrade is not convincing enough due to just a lack of scans or anything of that nature that I don't think such an upgrade would be solid in the moment.

So I'm voting to just leave it alone for now, cause we have enough proof for HDE. And that's all we need for it to remain on the profiles.
 
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