Fire Force Higher-Dimensional Existence Discussion/Possible Removal

[PrinceofPein]

different*

No

Also, I love this counter-argument: "he does not know the word but say it anyway"

Given that you have not read FF and knows jack shit about anything it is normal to say nonsense.
Joker is a kid, that has rarely been outside, few months before that he did not even know that human combustions were still going on, He was overwhelmed by what he saw in adolla and he made monologues about what he saw and also called it a higher plane, so yes we are not going to take his statement as the bible, when if that statement was made by adolla itself we still we not grant it a Qualitative difference since it will be packed among all "I am Higher Dimensioned" statements without contexts
You should take your time to read the standards instead of making dumb statements all the time
Based on our standards rating Joker is option 1.

Let me go in depth about something but apparently I don't know what I'm saying type beat

Genius, that was the first time Joker ever heard the term Adolla or ever saw it, he did not suddenly become an expert

 

[Deceived3596]

This argument ain't it chief.

 

[Arkenis]

Why can’t Joker‘s monologue simply be the way Ohkubo wanted to convene the information? Why argue about him not being knowledgeable

 

[ImmortalDread]

oh yes, always insult people because they don't read the verse and have the same viewpoint. I am lovin it™

 

[Alexander]

Given that you have not read FF and knows jack shit about anything it is normal to say nonsense.
Joker is a kid, that has rarely been outside, few months before that he did not even know that human combustions were still going on, He was overwhelmed by what he saw in adolla and he made monologues about what he saw and also called it a higher plane, so yes we are not going to take his statement as the bible, when if that statement was made by adolla itself we still we not grant it a Qualitative difference since it will be packed among all "I am Higher Dimensioned" statements without contexts
You should take your time to read the standards instead of making dumb statements all the time
Based on our standards rating Joker is option 1.

Yes of course, because apparently we need a narrator (sarcasm) because apparently the fans know better about something, despite the fact that they would invent something else than nothing to do.
you assuming adolla is another reality inside the universe is the best example i could think of my opinion>the characters word.
yes,characters can commit mistakes,but that does not make your words more relaible by thinking a character calling adolla a higher dimension/higher plane is false.
when it is not false,and you proof to be false.

 

[PrinceofPein]

Why can’t Joker‘s monologue simply be the way Ohkubo wanted to convene the information? Why argue about him not being knowledgeable

Based on this every statement in every series made by any character is true and a author's way of telling the audience what is true.
That said, it can be so, but it can also be that Joker was a kid that entered a plane and was overwhelmed by the things he saw and viewed in it and called it out. Either way without context on Qualitative, ontological or R>F difference of "Higher plane" or "Higher Dimension" statements, it does not mean much tiering wise

oh yes, always insult people because they don't read the verse and have the same viewpoint. I am lovin it™

For the last time, saying you made dumb statements when you obviously made dumb statements is not an insult. Let me break it down for you since you seem to not get it. You claimed that I said that Joker used the word "Higher plane" even though he does not know the word, which is you lying since I only said Joker knows nothing about "Higher dimensions" not that he does not know the word. For example you know nothing about Higher Dimensions but you know the word, you are like a real life Joker in that sense(No pun intended). If you enter a realm and you are overwhelmed by it, you can simply claim that the realm is Higher dimensioned even though the realm is not, since you are human and have no measuring stick on what hold qualitative difference over you.

yes,characters can commit mistakes,but that does not make your words more relaible by thinking a character calling adolla a higher dimension/higher plane is false.

Alex, I did not say it is not a higher plane rather, there is no context of qualitative difference, sure humans cannot comprehend it, but that is not qualitative difference

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

oh yes, always insult people because they don't read the verse and have the same viewpoint. I am lovin it™

You need to read the verse in order to have an understanding of what people are talking about here

 

[ImmortalDread]

which statement have I said in this thread once again? I shared my opinion about your weird counter-argument. Thats it. Don't be defensive over it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

You need to read the verse in order to have an understanding of what people are talking about here

99% of staff members evaulating the thread right now:

 

[Alexander]

Alex, I did not say it is not a higher plane rather, there is no context of qualitative difference, sure humans cannot comprehend it, but that is not qualitative difference

I keep wondering why this is so necessary, who put it up, or who agreed to put it up?

 

[BasedNecoScaler69]

99% of staff members evaulating the thread right now:

really confuses me even more why flashlight's staff thread got declines

 

[PrinceofPein]

which statement have I said in this thread once again? I shared my opinion about your weird counter-argument. Thats it. Don't be defensive over it.

Having an opinion over something you do not understand is the definition of Ultracrepidarian.
When I said, joker does not know anything about higher dimensions so his claim on what is and what is not higher dimensional should not hold much weight.
Someone who knows about the series will understand the fact that joker is actually a frog in a well, he literally asked burns before he was recruited if human combustion are still going on
Someone who knows nothing about human combustion somehow is an expert on adolla.

 

[Arkenis]

Based on this every statement in every series made by any character is true and a author's way of telling the audience what is true.
That said, it can be so, but it can also be that Joker was a kid that entered a plane and was overwhelmed by the things he saw and viewed in it and called it out. Either way without context on Qualitative, ontological or R>F difference of "Higher plane" or "Higher Dimension" statements, it does not mean much tiering wise

or you're just trying way too hard to argue against it. We have higher plane, higher dimension statements, idk how we are now saying "higher dimension" means nothing for tiers.

 

[Makai641001]

or you're just trying way too hard to argue against it. We have higher plane, higher dimension statements, idk how we are now saying "higher dimension" means nothing for tiers.

He is making sense tho outside of his access of rage that’s useless, stupid and every other similar adjectives.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Having an opinion over something you do not understand is the definition of Ultracrepidarian.

Oh no, I do understand and saw the scans, and from my perspective they are fine.

stop with throwing insults as you are the only with one positive accurate objective viewpoint.

You are doing this to me specifically for weeks right now and I feel this is intentional.

 

[PrinceofPein]

or you're just trying way too hard to argue against it. We have higher plane, higher dimension statements, idk how we are now saying "higher dimension" means nothing for tiers.

You can make a thread to change the standard

Oh no, I do understand and saw the scans, and from my perspective they are fine.

An ignorant perspective? Since you claim you never read the series. And did not even know who the person that made the statement is or the context of it.

stop with throwing insults as you are the only one positive accurate objective viewpoint.

Yes I know I am.
It is not an insult for God's sake.
I literally explained how your statement was out of question since Joker is not knowledgeable that's all.

You are doing this to me specifically for weeks right now and I feel this is intentional.

Nah it is not to you, but you say a lot of stuffs you do not understand and I just cannot let you keep sliding away with it.

 

[ImmortalDread]

Damn agreeing with low 1-C means I don't understand it.

@Maitreya u gotta do smth with ur gf rn

 

[PrinceofPein]

Damn agreeing with low 1-C means I don't understand it.

@Maitreya u gotta do smth with ur gf rn

No, saying Joker is knowledgeable is.
That said, if you feel targeted, I apologize.
This does not mean I will not call you out on your shit, it just means it is not personal

 

[ImmortalDread]

I never said that... what?

 

[ImmortalDread]

I only feel that your argument is lacking.

 

[Maitreya12]

No, saying Joker is knowledgeable is.
That said, if you feel targeted, I apologize.
This does not mean I will not call you out on your shit, it just means it is not personal

…Oh my god….

Ok for one, there’s literally no reason to assume Joker was incorrect here. None whatsoever. Especially since his words are repeated multiple times in the series.

Second of all, it wasn’t just Joker who made that specific statement, it was Joker and Burns who saw Adolla together and stated that it was a higher dimension mathematically. This statement then gets reinforced later on in the series. So claiming the statement was made in regards to just Joker is just false.

Again, there’s really no reason to assume or claim the statement is incorrect when it’s made by multiple people and is repeated many times in the story itself.

Also don’t insult @ImmortalDread

It’s haram to insult Dread

 

[PrinceofPein]

…Oh my god….

Ok for one, there’s literally no reason to assume Joker was incorrect here. None whatsoever. Especially since his words are repeated multiple times in the series.

Second of all, it wasn’t just Joker who made that specific statement, it was Joker and Burns who saw Adolla together and stated that it was a higher dimension mathematically. This statement then gets reinforced later on in the series. So claiming the statement was made in regards to just Joker is just false.

First, they did not say "it is a higher dimension mathematically" but rather the kanji used was dimensions in the physics sense, which is still equated to higher Dimensions in english, as there are kanji for dimensions in volume and size in Jap. So it is totally normal.
What I claim is that Higher dimension does not automatically mean qualitative difference if the statement is not expanded upon to mean so.
Secondly, there is no secondly.

Again, there’s really no reason to assume or claim the statement is incorrect when it’s made by multiple people and is repeated many times in the story itself.

You mean one more time?
Also, I am looking for where to get the official raws, I want to check the universe statements

Also don’t insult @ImmortalDread

It’s haram to insult Dread

Great, support the sidechick

 

[Arnoldstone18]

A single monologue from joker that knows nothing about Higher Dimensions,

As much as I disagree with how you view Joker’s intelligence. You forget the nature of how they perceived the nature of Adolla. You don’t just look at the world and say “Adolla is mathematics”… So it’s obvious the Evangelist gave them understanding similar to how they gave Sho understanding as a literal Child.

Hell, Adolla is regarded as a higher dimension by Haumea, Captain Burns and even Dr. Giovanni who is literally one of the smartest and well knowledgeable characters in the manga. So no it is not just one word from one character. It’s stated by multiple characters.

 

[PrinceofPein]

As much as I disagree with how you view Joker’s intelligence. You forget the nature of how they perceived the nature of Adolla. You don’t just look at the world and say “Adolla is mathematics”… So it’s obvious the Evangelist gave them understanding similar to how they gave Sho understanding as a literal Child.

Hell, Adolla is regarded as a higher dimension by Haumea, Captain Burns and even Dr. Giovanni who is literally one of the smartest and well knowledgeable characters in the manga. So no it is not just one word from one character. It’s stated by multiple characters.

I am sure I explained further on that part above here.

if that statement was made by adolla itself we still we not grant it a Qualitative difference since it will be packed among all "I am Higher Dimensioned" statements without contexts

 

[Maitreya12]

Great, support the sidechick

We don’t tolerate no Dread slander around these parts

We only promote love, peace, and prosperity here

As for the other parts of your post, I’ve already given context and elaboration as to which of the criteria of qualitative superiority could be met and further context on the multitude of higher dimensional statements in the series. Now I’m just waiting for staff input on the matter

 

[Arnoldstone18]

I am sure I explained further on that part above here.

What does without context mean when the context is quite literally everywhere?


The context of the Kanji literally implies a higher dimension in a mathematical sense.

 

[Alexander]

I am sure I explained further on that part above here.

Yes, I keep wondering who came up with it, because honestly it makes sense, if there were no problems with it.
I mean something is a higher dimension, because it is a higher dimension and it is called a higher dimension.
if it were not called a higher dimension, then it would be another parallel reality and that's it.
and again,if the this ''quality superiority''it is not proofen in a verse,but the dimension is still a higher dimension and is not a alternate reality,then what happens?

 

[BestMGQScalerEver]

Obviously higher dmension just means it has a higher volume or size than the universe rather than extra axis!

 

[Alexander]

Obviously higher dmension just means it has a higher volume or size than the universe rather than extra axis!

I'm 99% sure it would be easier to just say it's bigger than the universe than that.

 

[PrinceofPein]

What does without context mean when the context is quite literally everywhere?


The context of the Kanji literally implies a higher dimension in a mathematical sense.

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully. In such cases where information as to their exact nature and scale is scarce, it is preferable that the higher dimensions in question be fully-sized in order to qualify.

It is just statements with no context on relationships that entails qualitative superiority. For more info you can read the HDE and R>F page
The whole kanji stuff I already explained above.

rather the kanji used was dimensions in the physics sense, which is still equated to higher Dimensions in english, as there are kanji for dimensions in volume and size in Jap. So it is totally normal.

Other kanji if used would mean higher volume or higher size, which makes no sense.
So it is still just higher plane/dimension statement.
And I still cannot find the OG raws

 

[Alexander]

Other kanji if used would mean higher volume or higher size, which makes no sense.
So it is still just higher plane/dimension statement.
And I still cannot find the OG raws

adolla does not even have a volume,or you can put volume to ''ideas''

 

[Arnoldstone18]

It is just statements with no context on relationships that entails qualitative superiority. For more info you can read the HDE and R>F page
The whole kanji stuff I already explained above.

I’ve read those pages extensively before arguing here.

but let’s see what you said about the kanji

Other kanji if used would mean higher volume or higher size, which makes no sense.
So it is still just higher plane/dimension statement.
And I still cannot find the OG raws

I am aware there are Kanji for all sorts of thing but we are focusing on ‘高次元’ which has been explained by multiple dictionaries to imply a qualitative transcendence.

I have the scans for the RAWs of Joker, Burns, and Dr. Giovanni all using “高次元” to describe Adolla. Heck if you want. I can give you Haumea talking about the transcendence of Adolla. All of which imply qualitative superiority.

But for some reason you claim it’s a statement in a vacuum even tho you’re aware of Adolla being incomprehensible to regular people, and despite the world being viewed as merely a story or narration to Adolla and wield it to manipulate said story/world.

Infact, according to our standards, a statement alone could be enough, as long as we take the number of dimensions being transcended into account so that we know that it’s not clearly a fallacious wank statement, See below.

it is not at all feasible to take any statements involving a character existing "beyond dimensions" at face value, as this would lead to extremely inflated ratings largely dependent on No-Limits Fallacies. Therefore, such descriptors are to be evaluated while taking into account the number of dimensions which the verse has been shown to entertain; for example, a character stated to exist above physical dimensions in relation to a 4-dimensional cosmology would be Low 1-C with no further context.

Note: I didn’t bolden the “low 1-C” that’s how it’s boldened on the Tiering System FAQ.

in the case of Adolla it’s literally multiple statements showing qualitative superiority by one dimension. So it should be Low 1-C structure.

 

[PrinceofPein]

I have the scans for the RAWs

OG Raws, not some scanslation?

of Joker, Burns, and Dr. Giovanni all using “高次元” to describe Adolla. Heck if you want. I can give you Haumea talking about the transcendence of Adolla. All of which imply qualitative superiority. But for some reason you claim it’s a statement in a vacuum even tho you’re aware of Adolla being incomprehensible to regular people, despite the world being viewed as merely a story or narration to Adolla.

Again for the last time I will say this, mention of Higher dimension, does not equate qualitative superiority. Also the world is not being viewed as merely a story in relation to adolla but rather the story gets changed based on human perception of adolla. So which means there is no R>F, since the fiction is now shaping reality. Human ideas shape adolla and adolla brings that ideas to pass. It is not a one-sided transcendence, Adolla cannot do anything if the humans do not will it so

Infact, according to our standards, a statement alone should be enough, as long as we take the number of dimensions being transcended into account, in this case it’s literally only one dimension higher. See below.

Aside the fact that what you quoted said nothing about your claims, the quote has no relation with Higher dimensioned statements, that is for beyond dimension statements And it is simply saying if you are called to be beyond dimension, without further contexts, you get N+1D. Also not relevant here, but Beyond-Dimension statements also gets you nothing if you cannot explain how that holds, since it needs to be in relation to space and time. Which is why what usually gets low 1-C is not "beyond dimensional" statements but rather "beyond space and time" statements.
This is the one for Higher D statements

However, vaguer cases where a universe is merely stated to be higher-dimensional while existing in a scaling vacuum with no previously established relationship of superiority towards lower-dimensional ones (or no evidence to infer such a relationship from) should be analysed more carefully.

Please read it carefully. There need to be an established case of qualitative superiority for the statement to hold and what is qualitative superiority
Another Axis
Ontological Difference
R>F.
So big that the smaller one is just a small set of it and the bigger one is infinitely bigger than it

 

[Maitreya12]

Can we just get some staff members to come in and clarify if the evidence presented truly does meet the criteria for qualitative superiority with what’s been shown.

This debate is being had to as nausea at this point

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Please read it carefully.

Analyzed more carefully ≠ must be rejected.

 

[Makai641001]

Can we just get some staff members to come in and clarify if the evidence presented truly does meet the criteria for qualitative superiority with what’s been shown.

This debate is being had to as nausea at this point

I vote for FF getting downgraded to dirt lvl due to Shinra having 0 swag.

 

[Arnoldstone18]

Can we just get some staff members to come in and clarify if the evidence presented truly does meet the criteria for qualitative superiority with what’s been shown.

This debate is being had to as nausea at this point

Ultima already agreed on discord anyways

 

[Maitreya12]

Ultima already agreed on discord anyways

Fire Force stays winning

 

[ImmortalDread]

Ultima already agreed on discord anyways

Pain will say his perspective is ignorant because he did not read the series.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Has there been anything good about 5D so far?