Fire Emblem: Three Houses downgrade

[The_Smashor]

I brought this up in the previous Three Houses CRT, but the main cast (Even with Hero's Relics) cannot scale to Javelins of Light. Let's take a look at the feats of characters versus the Javelins of Light.

Sothis surviving Javelins of Light/Restoring Fódlan from the damage they caused

Probably the only one of these feats that are actually legitimate, although I can't find the former feat. However, this is Sothis in her prime (At least while in Fódlan), and restoring Fódlan used most, if not all, of her energy. Her energy probably hasn't come back by the time Nemesis kills her (Otherwise she would have woken up before he had the chance), and her heart and bones shouldn't scale to this feat for the same reason breaking a bone outside of someone's body is much easier than breaking a bone inside of someone's body. Garreg Mach's barrier also wouldn't scale, as it simply deflected the physical missiles, rather than tanking the actual explosion.

Rhea surviving and destroying Javelins of Light

This feat is questionable at best. For one, Javelins of Light vary in power. This isn't theorization, either. 2/7ths of the power to destroy a country would have destroyed a sizeable portion of Fódlan, creating far more destruction than just the Valley of Torment. If any one of the Javelins of Light hit the ground and they were as strong as the ones that created the Valley, which several did mind you, the entirety of Shambala would have been nothing but a smoldering crater. We can visually see that the explosion Rhea barely survived wasn't 6-C, just compared to her size. And destroying Javelins of Light is no more impressive than piercing the shell of a bomb, it doesn't mean you scale to the payload. I've seen the argument that they wouldn't send weaker Javelins of Light against their greatest enemies, but consider this: The Agarthans made the Javelins of Light, and then were weakened greatly as a society. It's entirely possible Those who Slither in the Dark lack the ability to create new Javelins, and have run out of stronger ones. This is the only possible explanation (Or them being idiots), because due to the very nature of bombs, the size of the explosion is the power of it. Unless there's clear proof of otherwise, a bomb can't scale to higher than the size of it's explosion, and in this case there isn't any proof of otherwise, since there's nothing else that suggests Rhea would be comparable to the Javelins that created the Valley of Torment.

Where to go from here?

With the main feat that almost everyone scales to gone, what do we do now? Originally, I believe the Three Houses cast was Low 7-B scaling to some lightning spell, though I can't remember it now. However, I think a better feat is Heroes Relics being stated to be able to cut mountains in half (For those wondering, this statement is in the Golden Deer route in the chapter where Catharine is introduced, said by Claude). It should be noted that it's not just the Sword of the Creator, but the Relics in general that have this rumor. While Claude himself says it's probably a tall tale, it's definitely worth looking into, espesially since the relics were made by the same people who made 6-C to Low 6-B explosives.

 

[ElixirBlue]

Looks good

Edit: On second thought, I'm unsure about some things.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I'll come back to this later.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

This again?

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

AOE Fallacy says Yeet to this CRT

 

[The_Smashor]

AOE fallacy doesn't apply to bombs.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

AOE fallacy doesn't apply to bombs.

It does when the bombs are magic based

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Admittedly, there is a lot of vague stuff regarding Sothis using the destruction, so I don't want to debate too much regarding that. But I can let other experts elaborate if they wish.

But actually, inconsistencies are just that, Inconsistencies. Also, I specifically have been saying AoE doesn't apply to ordinary bombs. Example manmade nuclear bombs made of Plutonium or Hydrogen bombs, ect. And even those bombs can technically be effected by environmental stuff; the explosion would be much smaller if underwater or much bigger if in outerspace for example. But Javelins of Light are not nuclear warheads, they're more like Giant Magic Javelins. AoE fallacy does apply to magic weapons just as much as it applies to Ki blasts or strong punches. The Valley of Torment feat is still very valid, it only took one and there was nothing blocking it. That was the pure destructive power. Also, Rhea was heavily weakened when she tanked the Javelins of light; the explosions "Being small" just means her body absorbed most of the impact. Not to mention, this was Rhea when she was sick and heavily weakened; if she was at her prime she'd be tanking them outright. Especially since she later became her berserk form in the Silver Snow route after that incident. And there's also the fact that she lives if you get S rank support for her.

The Low 7-B feats are also either extremely casual or in Fort Merceus case, the fort is famous for being an absurdly durable strong hold. But the 6-C feat is just a mid end and honestly very consistent. I do have concerns of making every single Demonic beast half as strong as the Javelins yes based on Crest Stone shenanigans. But I'm unsure what else to do with those. But Catherine's Thunderbrand does use the universal energy source thing and the PE used for the storm feat should logically be used in her strikes. So I think all Heroes Relics and possible all Beasts should scale from that at least. There are even mentions the meteor calculation for Three Houses might be lowballed heavily.

But anyway, I may have more to add later.

 

[The_Smashor]

Why would we assume that every Javelin of Light has the same AP though? It's not like Javelins of Light are a specific spell that's going to do the same amount of damage every time. Javelins of Light are specifically made for destruction, so if it creates less destruction, then it's not unreasonable to assume it's weaker.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I also haven't found any statements of the Javelins getting weaker; perhaps the ones Sothis used could be by the nature that her magic is that potent. But I don't see any reason for the ones used against IO to be any weaker than the ones used on Fort Merceus or the one for the Valley of Torment.

Also, it's unknown how they create Javelins or even if they're any different from ones Sothis used. Maybe they had plenty but just didn't use up all of them and still had some remaining. But I digress. But they still consider the Resurrected Nemesis and the Dark Sword of the Creator their strongest weapon.

 

[The_Smashor]

The ones Sothis used? What ones Sothis used? 90% the one time people thought she used Javelins of Light was when they deflected off of Garreg Mach's barrier.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

The ones that "Destroyed multiple countries and wiped them completely off the map". Those were the ones used by Sothis, but it doesn't seem like she used them ever since. But it's also mentioned she did a great flood similar to what Yune did in Radiant Dawn. But I think some people considered that too vague.

 

[The_Smashor]

Do we even know those are Javelins of Light? Looks to me like it was just Sothis' own powers judging by the wording of the book. There's at least two spells in Three Houses that are Pillars of Light.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

"Pillars of Light" are commonly used to refer to Javelins of Light, I haven't really heard what the other example is. But "Pillars of light from the heavens" especially sounds more like Javelins of light as Gilbert described them.

 

[The_Smashor]

Literally how would Sothis even get any Javelins of Light? As far as we know the Agarthans did it and they're just claiming it was Sothis just like with the Valley of Torment.

 

[TheGatememer]

Sothis never used Javelins of Light, those were the Agarthans. The "Children of Men" refers to the Agarthans. And Javelins of Light/Pillars of Light have been used indistinguishably.

I do agree that the Javelins of Light are VERY inconsistent. The ones that landed in Shambhala barely created even a dent on the surface. While the ones in Fort Merceus created giant craters. And then you got the ones that created the Valley of Torment, and destroyed the countries. However, I doubt that the Javelins got that much weaker in a span of like, 80 years, since the one that destroyed Ailell happened probably sometime less than a century before the events of Three Houses. We know this, since there was a Hermit in Abyss that witnessed it the moment it happened. Judging by his looks, its probably safe to say he's less than a century old.

Another thing I will say though, is that the number of Javelins we use in the calculations is probably too few, but even if we use 100 Javelins in the 6-B calculation, it would still round up to 6-C. Tier 6 seems to be pretty consistent too. Here are a list of Tier 6 feats I can list off the top of my head:

1. Sothis creating the Flood Despair, and those waters reaching very close to Shambhala despite the text saying that they built it "beyond the reaches of the waters of despair".
2. Sothis healing the planet overtime. (questionable)
3. The Wars/Javelins of Light ravaged the entire continent of Fodlan, and possibly the entire world, which led to most humans dying.
4. Rhea being able to "destroy Fodlan" with her children (questionable).
5. The Javelins of Light creating the Valley of Torment.
6. The Javelins of Light "utterly destroying" the countries Thinis, Malus, Septum and Llium.

These feats would scale to Prime Sothis at the very least, and downscale to all the God Tiers. This is due to the fact that Sothis was in Thinis, and the entire country was nuked while she was probably still in Thinis. Another thing to note is that Sothis changed her form to resemble a human's, and the Nabatean's dragon forms are clearly shown to be much stronger than their human forms. Despite this, Sothis was able to tank them just fine. This would downscale to the rest of the top tiers, due to the fact that prior to fusing with Byleth, Sothis says that she once again found the power of the progenitor god. However, she probably didn't retain ALL of her power, since she says that she will relinquish all power that she had "left" to Byleth, implying that she did not have her prime strength. Due to the former statement though, we can safely assume she did regain a good chunk of her original power, just not all of it. So even if the Javelins of Light became weakened overtime, the fact that Byleth inherited a good portion of Sothis' power, who while in her human form tanked the same Javelins of Light that destroyed the countries, would mean that they still scale, albeit on a lesser scale. This would scale to the other top tiers for obvious reasons.

And side note, Sothis did not use up all her power to restore the world, it was said that she just needed lots of time to do so. The only reason she went to sleep was because she "fulfilled her purpose", nowhere does it say she used up all her power. So Nemesis did kill Sothis in her prime, but she was just asleep, which somewhat supports the previous statements, since he was able to kill a Prime Sothis in her sleep.

tdlr: Sothis tanked the same javelins that destroyed the countries, Sothis probably retained a good portion of her power by the events of three houses since she said she regained the power of the progenitor god, and since she fused with Byleth, Byleth has that power. This scales to whoever scales to Byleth.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Well if it's not Sothis who did it, then I would honestly not see any problems with the Low 6-B example. But I agree that Sothis isn't the type who would attack the people and that she's simply being framed by Those Who Slither in the Dark. But that honestly just makes the Tier 6 feats even more justified.

Although, I disagree with scaling anyone from Prime Sothis. She's in a class of her own far above everyone else, and Sothis was very much weakened as Kob explained multiple times.

 

[TheGatememer]

While Sothis in her Prime is probably stronger than the rest of the cast, it doesn't mean that they can't downscale to her. And by the way, this was brought up in a previous thread, but Sothis straight up says that She once again found her power. And I was wrong, she didn't say "left", all she says is that she is going to give all her power to Byleth. Despite this, I do agree that she was still probably weakened, considering that we see Byleth get beat around plenty of times after this. Though once again, even if she was weakened, the statement implies that Sothis still had a good portion of her prime power.

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

I agree we should probably assume more javelins of light destroyed countries, honestly assuming 100 were used is the best possible lowball

 

[DemonGodMitchAubin]

Bump