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Finally revising Apocalypse

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Confluctor said:
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I found it, it's in Avengers vol 5/(2013) issue 13. Tl;dr: If Hyperion wasn't holding back then sure, but the HE does not scale at all to him in any meaningful way in that fight, here's how it goes:
  • HE tries to talk and Hyperion just rips off his whole arm.
  • HE panics a little bit as he regrows a big gun where his arm should be and tries to reason with Hyperion with his bs logic.
  • As he was talking to Hyperion, HE blasts him with his arm-gun thing and blows him like 4 meters away.
  • Hyperion attacks with heat vision as he tells HE that this is a fight he can't win, HE blocks with a forcefield from his arm-gun...that's the fight.
I would hesitate to agree that the gun and the forcefield were even 3-C, they possibly were or Hyperion was basically in "Dude just give up already" mode after being more calm from his initial stress.
 
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Apocalypse can reform his body into various types of weapons and machinery. It seems most likely that this is how he produced the hammer.

I do not think that we should count feats that were made through unknown means with the help of others, especially as Selene knows quite a lot of magic and is a psychic vampire.
 
Fair enough I won't debate your conclusions on those due to their ambiguity.

Edit: With the changes now made, can the revision be applied? Or is more input still needed?
 
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soulusboy said:
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The former as I don't see the word "soul" around.
soulusboy said:
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Definitely odd as we don't see what happens, but it matches his colors and the movement effect at the top implies it wasn't teleportation. We have a sub-power for this called Weapon Creation, leave it a Body Control is fine too.

Yes this can all be applied.
 
I would get rid of the ‘likely’ and just have him as ‘up to Galaxy level’ tbh, but yeah, this should be fine to apply.
 
I wouldn't have much of an issue with that.

I noticed later that his speed is an issue. We only have Thor-characters at Massively FTL+ and nothing more for some weird reason even tho most are slower than that in most of their showings other characters would scale to. Most of Apocalypse's feats are on that level, so he should normally scale to those who can tag him.
 
Eficiente said:
I noticed later that his speed is an issue. We only have Thor-characters at Massively FTL+ and nothing more for some weird reason even tho most are slower than that in most of their showings other characters would scale to. Most of Apocalypse's feats are on that level, so he should normally scale to those who can tag him.
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LordTracer said:
I swear, herald level speeds have been in a state of “need to be revised” for ages now.
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soulusboy said:
Should we do something similar to Hulk and put him at “Variable, at least Massively Hypersonic+, at most Massively FTL+“?
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I personally would not mind if Thor and the other herald-level characters get variable speed levels for Earth-based settings.

@The_Impress @Confluctor @Firestorm808 @Qawsedf234

What do you think?
 
I would change the AP stuff to "Up to 3-C" and for lifting strength if there's no direct scan then something like "Likely Class T". Unless he has a direct showing of easily overpower Colossus there's no reason to give him an at least rating for an assumption.
 
Okay. That seems reasonable to me.
 
Thank you for helping out. Tell us here when you are done.
 
A place where to put an anti-feat, and that happened before his 3-C showing, so it can be said he wasn't always as strong.
 
As mentioned before, Onslaught's first key don't make a speck of sense - it's basically wrong. So, a 3c person can be weaker than another 3c person. So, yeah, that part should probably removed


Also, with Franklin's powers, Onslaught should be way higher than just 3C. My man since the day he was born had like a casual 3b or so statement
 
Confluctor said:
As mentioned before, Onslaught's first key don't make a speck of sense - it's basically wrong. So, a 3c person can be weaker than another 3c person. So, yeah, that part should probably removed
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This. His dura justification is straight up 3-C, and his AP justification scales him to Juggernaut, who can be 3-C.
 
This conclusions come quickly and I see no listed consistency on adamantium. Again, I can easily argue that the feats listed in Wolverine and X-23's profiles are all High 6-C, it's not really hard if you guys look at them. And after looking closely at Onslaught, he's a bit inconsistent;
  • He did very well against Juggernaut (Notably the first time off-panel in Uncanny X-Men Vol 1 322)
  • He overpowered Hulk at first, then Hulk got more angry and damaged his armor
  • Thor flew through his armor, leaving a giant hole in it; this caused Onslaught to be free and more powerful, but Thor still easily destroyed adamantium at his best.
  • Has been harmed by people at High 6-C or groups with at least someone at that level.
So I would be careful to just put Onslaught at 3-C. His armor of all things doesn't seem at that level at all.
 
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I personally don't mind if we give Onslaught a "3-C" key for his first form, and a "3-C, likely 2-A" key for his second form with Franklin's power.
 
Eficiente said:
[*]He overpowered Hulk at first, then Hulk got more angry and damaged his armor
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The Hulk destroyed Onslaught's armor, yes.
Eficiente said:
[*]Thor flew through his armor, leaving a giant hole in it; this caused Onslaught to be free and more powerful, but Thor still easily destroyed adamantium at his best.
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From what I recall, Onslaught was still in unstable mid-transformation at the time.
Eficiente said:
[*]Has been harmed by people at High 6-C or groups with at least someone at that level.
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That seemed more like Marvel being Marvel in not consistently having lower-powered characters be useless and slaughtered during free-for-alls.
Eficiente said:
So I would be careful to just put Onslaught at 3-C. His armor of all things doesn't seem at that level at all.
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Maybe "3-C" in physical statistics and "Likely 2-A" via reality warping for his second form then?
 
I mean we have a lot of characters who are far stronger than high 6c but capped them at high 6c for... Well, reasons (like Nate Grey before he got deleted). And a lot don't have profiles. And also, fighting a group of haxy group of superheroes isn't an anti feat either.
 
wolverine
High 6C for stabbing world war Hulk and Thanos
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Context is all.

World War Hulk was bullying but not annihilating X-Men weaker than that, he got harmed by many of them in a way that the story either portrayed as "valid" by Marvel standards or him not caring as his goal was something else. Santo Vaccarro, Cyclops' max power optic blasts, Colossus and a Juggernaut not at full power (in their first round) could harm him in the same story (and I do mean "harm" for what the word means, not just being drawn fighting doing poses against each others, otherwise I would point out Beast too). The thing about World War Hulk is that "he's more angry than he has ever been" and so we think that he's always at his peak, but that's false, it's buying into the the overly glorified yet inaccurate ways comics have to protray things, Hulk, while more powerful, still works like normal; growing stronger via anger or if he feels like it, and having many 3-C anti-feats along the way. He's overall stronger than normal, yes, but this isn't the same as him always being 3-C.

Thanos' case is easy, he put himself weaker to combat teams of heroes, as in to show off his combat and victory against them to impress Death by way of not being as effective as he could have been. He could keep up in speed with everyone and notably got harmed by a kick of Spider-Man in a big panel.
 
Just a note that I think that Thanos stated outright that he simply shut off his cosmic-level power-up from the Infinity Gauntlet during his fight with the Earth heroes.
 
Something like that, it was weird.
  • By the end he said he returned to himself his full power, so he at least wasn't at his peak.
  • the first thing said was that he would allow them the possibility of killing him, if taken at face value this means anyone can kill him.
  • and the following dialogue, which had the most focus, was how he would only cut himself of his super senses. But by that logic he is at full power and durability and only lacks the ability to see the future and sense others.
This should be bs enough to dismiss Wolverine's feat there. Which was also taking Thanos by surprise.
 
Not listed on Wolvie's file but Black Knight's, but his claws can parry reliably the Ebony Blade, which destroyed Kang's forcefields, and that thing consistently tanks hits from max power Thor.

Also World War Hulk still matched and stalemated Sentry, he IS 3-C, you're not debunking that, and you're ignoring context that Hulk straight up says he can't kill Wolverine, and has to resort to other cheap tactics to get a knockout

Points regarding Thanos are presumptious and inconsiderate of there being ANY further context there is for thwse statements.
 
The_Impress said:
Not listed on Wolvie's file but Black Knight's, but his claws can parry reliably the Ebony Blade, which destroyed Kang's forcefields, and that thing consistently tanks hits from max power Thor.

Also World War Hulk still matched and stalemated Sentry, he IS 3-C, you're not debunking that, and you're ignoring context that Hulk straight up says he can't kill Wolverine, and has to resort to other cheap tactics to get a knockout
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We really should have a profile for that metal and at least a first key called "Blades". All feats are cool and all, but I want to see anti-feats as well.

I didn't deny World War Hulk's feat in his profile, just said that he wasn't always at that level. And that was his last fight of all things.

So, Hulk straight up says he can't kill Wolverine, but Hulk destroyed destroyed Onslaught's Adamantium armor by getting angry, and Thor could destroy big parts of it too, and a World War Hulk explicitly not at full power can take, if a bit harmed, the full power optic blasts of Cyclops, which is stated to pulverize Adamantium (Uncanny X-Men (1963) issue 296).
The_Impress said:
Points regarding Thanos are presumptious and inconsiderate of there being ANY further context there is for thwse statements.
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Well, I simply disagree.
 
Eficiente said:
So, Hulk straight up says he can't kill Wolverine, but Hulk destroyed destroyed Onslaught's Adamantium armor by getting angry
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You're acting like Onslaught was amazingly consistent that run.
Eficiente said:
, and Thor could destroy big parts of it too, and a World War Hulk explicitly not at full power can take, if a bit harmed, the full power optic blasts of Cyclops, which is stated to pulverize Adamantium (Uncanny X-Men (1963) issue 296).
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I'll also say this, adamantium itself is inconsistent. But for the mechanics shown for Wolverine and what not, I'll disagree it is inconsistent FOR HIM. He barely gets any antifeats.
Eficiente said:
Well, I simply disagree.
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i disagree to your disagreement, gotem

But yeah we can put this up to a vote if you want
 
Onslaught didn't have adamantium armor. it was generated to be proportionately strong to his psychic energy, as far as I recall.
 
Well, so,
  • do we agree World War Hulk goes from High 6-C to 3-C rather than always being 3-C?
  • I'm ok with removing "Stated that Onslaught's first form was more powerful than himself" from Apocalypse, if I would wish the profile could list that somewhere
 
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