Feats for the 2018 Lucifer Morningstar to use in his key and discuss

[Unwanted]

These are feats I collected to help if someone is going to make a key for the 2018 Lucifer.

Abilities:
Superhuman strength: Bent alien metal with a finger (issue 19)

Super speed, creation, biological manipulation and time manipulation (issue 14)

Fire Manipulation: Lit his cigarette with his finger (issue 15)

Light and empathic manipulation: Brought light to the Greek underworld and returned to the souls there there emotions (issue 12)

Matter manipulation: Stated he was the shaper of suns and the universe bent to his will (issue 3)

Reality Warping: Took a piece of hell and pushed it beyond the edge of everything, beyond the Presence's influence , despite that it is on Earth, Archangel Raguel strains to comprehend it and he becomes a mortal within it (issue 12 and 10)

Space manipulation: Can cut through space with a shard he created from the moon (issue 7)

Void manipulation: In Naraka, there's an ocean of void that was there before the place took form, Outside of the Presence's plan and his reach, Lucifer took a piece from it, and later folded it and warped it like a piece of clothing (issue 10 and 11)

Conceptual Manipulation: The four hunters are like the Endless, primordial force, an act made flesh, part of Lucifer's own dna and he destroyed them. Like the Endless they reincarnate back when they die, but he kept destroying their every incarnation until they were no more, doing harm to the fabric of all being (issue 17 and 19)

Fate manipulation: Threatened to destroy Destiny of the Endless in his realm and Destiny admits he could do it. Held the book of Destiny which contains the universe, then proceeds to erase every mention of himself from it and by extension he erased himself from existence as if he never was (Vol. 4)

Teleportation: Teleported through fire (issue 16)

Dimensional Travel: Travels between the metaphysical realms (issue 12)

Abstract Existence Type 1 and 2: Not made of flesh (issue 16) Michael stated that angels are made of will
Is the embodiment of darkness, he and the Presence are the definitions of right and wrong (Vol. 4)

Immortality type 1, 2, 3 and 4: Can live without his heart. (Issue 8)
Even after he erased himself from existence, he was reborn as another angel similar to how Dream was reborn as Daniel. (Vol. 4)
Also should be like Michael who describes himself as eternal and divine as Yahweh is (Vol. 4)

Healing: Restored his eyes (issue 1)

Shapeshifting: Changed his form from a cat to his regular form (issue 3)

Omnilingualisim: Speaks with insects (issue 14)

Precognition: Was implied by Mazikeen to have known what was going to happen since before he entered the skull and knew a man was going to kill himself through being prescient (issue 13)

Nigh-Omniscient: While in the physical world heard his name mentioned in the Greek underworld. (Issue 14)
His eyes can see the truth in all things. (Vol. 4)
"He can see very far and sense things in ways we do not have the language nor the space to elaborate upon within these pages". (Issue 19)
Other than that, he can read the book of destiny

 

[Confluctor]

I will look through it later. In the meantime I will tag some people who can help

@Antvasima @Sandman31 @catzlaflame

 

[Catzlaflame]

Oh nice you already gathered feats for 2018 Lucifer.

Abilities:
Superhuman strength: Bent alien metal with a finger (issue 19)

Super speed, creation, biological manipulation and time manipulation (issue 14)

Time manipulation is fine by me. But I’m pretty sure listing that feat as both creation and biological manipulation is considered redundant, but IMO it would work.

Fire Manipulation: Lit his cigarette with his finger (issue 15)

Agree

Light and empathic manipulation: Brought light to the Greek underworld and returned to the souls there there emotions (issue 12)

Light manip is fine, don’t see the empathic manip here tho,

Matter manipulation: Stated he was the shaper of suns and the universe bent to his will (issue 3)

Agree

Reality Warping: Took a piece of hell and pushed it beyond the edge of everything, beyond the Presence's influence , despite that it is on Earth, Archangel Raguel strains to comprehend it and he becomes a mortal within it (issue 12 and 10)

This is pocket reality manipulation

Space manipulation: Can cut through space with a shard he created from the moon (issue 6)

Agree

Void manipulation: In Naraka, there's an ocean of void that was there before the place took form, Outside of the Presence's plan and his reach, Lucifer took a piece from it, and later folded it and warped it like a piece of clothing (issue 10 and 11)

Agree

Conceptual Manipulation: The four hunters are like the Endless, primordial force, an act made flesh, part of Lucifer's own dna and he destroyed them. Like the Endless they reincarnate back when they die, but he kept destroying there every incarnation until they were no more, doing harm to the fabric of all being (issue 17 and 19)

You can’t assume that because something is called similar to something else that it is speciifcally referring to the embodying the concept part of that character it’d be a false equivalency. So disagree here

Fate manipulation: Threatened to destroy Destiny of the Endless in his realm and Destiny admits he could do it. Held the book of Destiny which contains the universe, then proceeds to erase every mention of himself from it and by extension he erased himself from existence as if he never was (Vol. 4

Agree,

Teleportation: Teleported through fire (issue 16)

Agree

Dimensional Travel: Travels between the metaphysical realms (issue 12)

Agree

Abstract Existence Type 1 and 2: Not made of flesh (issue 16)
Is the embodiment of darkness, he and the Presence are the definitions of right and wrong (Vol. 4)

Type 2 is fine by me for him embodying darkness, but disagree with type 1 because not being made out of flesh does not mean the character doesn’t lack a physical form completely. For example X character could posses inorganic physiology which would mean they don’t posses flesh but would still have physical form.

Immortality type 1, 2, 3 and 4: Can live without his heart. (Issue 8)
Even after he erased himself from existence, he was reborn as another angel similar to how Dream was reborn as Daniel. (Vol. 4)
Also should be like Michael who describes himself as eternal and divine as Yahweh is (Vol. 4)

Agree but what is the basis for regenerative immortality?

Healing: Restored his eyes (issue 1)

Agree

Shapeshifting: Changed his form from a cat to his regular form (issue 3)

Agree, however I recommend cutting the image since the relevant scene is smaller and towards the corner so others don’t miss it, also I remember @CreatorJoe saying this could be disease manipulation, I haven’t read that far so I got no clue but is there any more context that would indicate that?

Omnilangalism: Speaks with insects (issue 14)

This isn’t an ability on the wiki as far as I am aware

Precognition: Was implied by Mazikeen to have known what was going to happen since before he entered the skull and knew a man was going to kill himself through being prescient (issue 13)

Agree

Nigh-Omniscient: While in the physical world heard his name mentioned in the Greek underworld. (Issue 14)

This can be clairvoyance

His eyes can see the truth in all things. (Vol. 4) "He can see very far and sense things in ways we do not have the language nor the space to elaborate upon within these pages". (Issue 19)
Other than that, he can read the book of destiny

This would not be enough for nigh-omniscene sadly.

 

[Unwanted]

Oh nice you already gathered feats for 2018 Lucifer.

Time manipulation is fine by me. But I’m pretty sure listing that feat as both creation and biological manipulation is considered redundant, but IMO it would work.

He created the cell first then made it evolve to an animal.

Agree

Light manip is fine, don’t see the empathic manip here tho,

A later scan implied that Lucifer did manipulate there emotions.

Agree

This is pocket reality manipulation

Very well.

Agree

Agree

You can’t assume that because something is called similar to something else that it is speciifcally referring to the embodying the concept part of that character it’d be a false equivalency. So disagree here

I don't understand what you said. But what he did was described as harming all beings which implies he affected concepts

Agree,

Agree

Agree

Type 2 is fine by me for him embodying darkness, but disagree with type 1 because not being made out of flesh does not mean the character doesn’t lack a physical form completely. For example X character could posses inorganic physiology which would mean they don’t posses flesh but would still have physical form.

Possible

Agree but what is the basis for regenerative immortality?

"Never needed bandages". And he regenerated from being burned in another scan I don't have

Agree

Agree, however I recommend cutting the image since the relevant scene is smaller and towards the corner so others don’t miss it, also I remember @CreatorJoe saying this could be disease manipulation, I haven’t read that far so I got no clue but is there any more context that would indicate that?

He said he didn't cause the plague in the following scan in the comic

This isn’t an ability on the wiki as far as I am aware

Oops

Agree

This can be clairvoyance

Ok

This would not be enough for nigh-omniscene sadly.

Even through reading the book of destiny?

 

[Antvasima]

This isn’t an ability on the wiki as far as I am aware

We do have something similar:

Automatic Translation

Automatic Translation is the ability to understand and utilize verbal or non-verbal communication without any prior knowledge of the language. Some characters with this ability are limited in some way, such as only translating verbal communication or text. While others can translate virtually...

vsbattles.fandom.com

 

[Antvasima]

Anyway, what catzlaflame has accepted seems fine to me.

 

[Catzlaflame]

He created the cell first then made it evolve to an animal.

I know, and personally I think it’s fine, but Ive had stuff like this be rejected on the basis of being redundant so I’d rather wait for confluctor to see their opinion

A later scan implied that Lucifer did manipulate there emotions.

Then it can work

I don't understand what you said. But what he did was described as harming all beings which implies he affected concepts

My understanding was that you were arguing the hunters are similar to The Endless with them both being primordial forces, eternal beings etc so they should, similarly to the endless, also embody a concept, and that Luci destroys them so he should be capable of destroying concepts. What I said was that just because they shared certain traits with the endless doesn’t mean they share the trait of embodying a concept, and in which scan was the “harming all beings” stated ? That might work given the proper context.

"Never needed bandages". And he regenerated from being burned in another scan I don't have

That doesn’t imply regeneration, almost every type of immortality could be described as not needing bandages.

Even through reading the book of destiny?

I see it as an act of learning more then a act of knowing.

 

[Confluctor]

Yeah, Creation should be fine. Since he just created a cell and then accelerated its growth with age manip/time manip. This would actually be supporting evidence for life creation tho. Because he essentially created a biological creature. Although I wouldn't put it under life creation just from this feat tho.

And omni lingualism comes under automatic translation.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody here willing to create an extra statistics key for the 2018 version of DC Comics' Lucifer?

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody here willing to create an extra statistics key for the 2018 version of DC Comics' Lucifer?

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @The_Impress @Planck69 @MarvelFanatic119

 

[Qawsedf234]

I don't know enough about Lucifer to really contribute. Most I can do is help structure what it looks like and I'm not the best person for that either.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Odins horsemen are definitely concepts.
Theyre born at the very moment the concepts are made
As seen here
And here


Honor states he is honor itself

Theyre a primal force and a pure act of the universe, predatory desire made flesh part of ones own dna.

Theyre more than the bodies that hold them

Killing them would damage the all being or all creation. odin describes lucifer would rip the universe limb by limb to prove his point

Think its pretty clear cut what theyre

 

[Antvasima]

I don't know enough about Lucifer to really contribute. Most I can do is help structure what it looks like and I'm not the best person for that either.

Okay. No problem.

 

[Eficiente]

I agree with Abstract Existence but we need to be careful on the wording, DC's not Castlevania and most of the evidence isn't valid.

Abstract Existence Type 1 and 2: Not made of flesh (issue 16)

As someone said before that's unrelated to the power, you can strike through it like this.

Is the embodiment of darkness,

Embody something doesn't really mean anything, it's a vague word. I would write it as "Related to darkness against his father's light, without Lucifer there wouldn't "be a concept of white at all"", as that much clearly gives all the data the images informs us; He's related to darkness and his father to light, whatever that means, and without Lucy the concept of white wouldn't exist. We can likewise conclude from this that without his father the same would happen to the concept of black. All that much is legit, but not necessarily Abstract Existence as you can sustain concepts and keep them from falling and not be one yourself, just like you can have powers over any thing and not be that yourself.

The feat's good Conceptual Manipulation tho.

he and the Presence are the definitions of right and wrong (Vol. 4)

The image doesn't inform me that.

Odins horsemen are definitely concepts.
Theyre born at the very moment the concepts are made
As seen here
And here

Being born at the very moment the concepts are made doesn't matter.

Honor states he is honor itself

That's pretty good.

Theyre a primal force and a pure act of the universe, predatory desire made flesh part of ones own dna.

None of that has anything to do with being a concept. Could those classifications be given to concepts? Yes. Could those classifications be given to non-concepts? Yes as well. It just sounds fancy.

Theyre more than the bodies that hold them

Yes, and that has nothing to do with being a concept.

Killing them would damage the all being or all creation. odin describes lucifer would rip the universe limb by limb to prove his point

Killing this beings being compared to rip the universe limb from limb and "do harm to the all being" can be used, but isn't inherently = to them being concepts. It works as a secondary evidence of sorts.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Being born at the very moment the concepts are made doesn't matter.

sorry being born may have been a poor choice of word, coming into being would probably be a better phrasiong and why would that not matter when 1 is trying to compare them to the likes of the endless who they themselves describe there coming to be in a very similar fashion.

That's pretty good.

thank you

None of that has anything to do with being a concept. Could those classifications be given to concepts? Yes. Could those classifications be given to non-concepts? Yes as well. It just sounds fancy.

fair enough again i think this may have been a poor choice of words on my part my post was more trying to prove there likeness to that of the endless who have again been described in a very familar manner in all aspects of your response to the part of my post

Yes, and that has nothing to do with being a concept.

your right being more than there bodies does not necessary mean theyre a concept. however you could say this could mean that when they slumber as honor put it theyre in there natural state of said concept and these bodies are just personifications much akin to that of the endless. also like the endless they can not be easily rid of as if the body is killed they will reform elsewhere where honor, thirst, etc exists should also be noted they seem to abide by somewhat similar rules to that of the endless

as seen here

Killing this beings being compared to rip the universe limb from limb and "do harm to the all being" can be used, but isn't inherently = to them being concepts. It works as a secondary evidence of sorts.

okay fair enough


also i must apologise for any bad wording or phrasing or anything like that im a tad rusty on my debating skills i stopped for a time now

 

[Eficiente]

sorry being born may have been a poor choice of word, coming into being would probably be a better phrasiong and why would that not matter when 1 is trying to compare them to the likes of the endless who they themselves describe there coming to be in a very similar fashion.

Coming into being is the same, some special being with powers over lightning may have started to exist at once when the first lightning happened, that doesn't make it a concept. I don't see how they're compared like that.

For the rest, everything will be good if it's written in a way that anyone who doesn't know anything can conclude the same we claim. It is very common for things like this for one to say stuff thinking it means something while that's not the case in reality and then realize that when being told once.

 

[Y3kthunder]

Coming into being is the same, some special being with powers over lightning may have started to exist at once when the first lightning happened, that doesn't make it a concept. I don't see how they're compared like that.

This is what destruction had to say about the Endless. And i quote " as the universe came into being , destiny came along with it alone in the darkness. When the first living thing came into existence our sister was there waiting, and when the first living thing awoke to life dream was there now lets compare.

This is what is said about thirst and fear and tbh this should be more than enough of a comparison. You do remember this Scan no? Well lemme quote it for all. "To examine who or what it is we bear witness to.... THIRST was the firstborn of the hunters he came into being when the first thing ached for anothers flesh. FEAR was born when the first victim released what it was to be hunted.when they realized they might be ended when theyre caught" they go onto say this " FEAR was one of the first conscious thoughts to ever be"
These are nearly identical to the Endless. Heck this alone shows that fear is literally meant to be just that fear itself

For the rest, everything will be good if it's written in a way that anyone who doesn't know anything can conclude the same we claim. It is very common for things like this for one to say stuff thinking it means something while that's not the case in reality and then realize that when being told once.

Would it be better if i did a side by side comparison to the endless and all of there similarities getting the nessesary scans wont be hard im very fond of the sandman id read it a bit an i thought my last post helped clarify quite a bit from my first. My approach and wording or phrasing my have been a tad off but i think it fixed that a bit

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody here willing to create an extra statistics key for the 2018 version of DC Comics' Lucifer?

So about this...

 

[Teezar]

Fire Manipulation

Their's a better one when he roasted another angel.

 

[Unwanted]

I think it's pretty clear that the hunters are concepts. The hunter says I'm honor itself + Stated to be a primordial force and a pure act of the universe, predatory desire made flesh + harming them is doing harm to all beings + introduced and act like the Endless. I don't know why is that being argued in the first place

Abstarct existence type 1: Michael stated that angels are made of will

Their's a better one when he roasted another angel.

Sorry I don't remember I've seen it

 

[Teezar]

Sorry I don't remember I've seen

Sorry, its from lucifer 2000. My apologies I didn't read the OP well.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody here willing to create an extra statistics key for the 2018 version of DC Comics' Lucifer?

@Sandman31 @Deagonx @LuciferDC099

 

[Eficiente]

I think it's pretty clear that the hunters are concepts. The hunter says I'm honor itself + Stated to be a primordial force and a pure act of the universe, predatory desire made flesh + harming them is doing harm to all beings + introduced and act like the Endless. I don't know why is that being argued in the first place

Well, that's why I said we need to be careful on the wording, we can't just say that when most of those things don't mean they're concepts but give context that they're "special esoteric beings or something idk".

Abstarct existence type 1: Michael stated that angels are made of will

Can't see the image. I don't think being will is Abstarct Existence, will comes from the mind, and all that we take as Incorporeal. They're not the conpect of will, just some will.

 

[Teezar]

Can't see the image. I don't think being will is Abstarct Existence, will comes from the mind, and all that we take as Incorporeal. They're not the conpect of will, just some will.

Will is also an abstract yes or no?

 

[Eficiente]

I don't think so, but I can't say for sure as I take the Abstract Existence page as wrong in many things and counterintuitive.

 

[Teezar]

Abstract Existence is the ability to embody an abstraction, such as a concept, thought, or information, and being immortal thanks to it.
existing in thought or as an idea but not having a physical or concrete existence.

Will Qualifies for abstract existence.

 

[Unwanted]

If will is not an abstract then what is?

 

[Antvasima]

Can somebody explain exactly what is being suggested here and why, and the arguments for and against, in a single post, so I can ask a few knowledgeable members for help with evaluating it?

 

[Y3kthunder]

Can somebody explain exactly what is being suggested here and why, and the arguments for and against, in a single post, so I can ask a few knowledgeable members for help with evaluating it?

Yea sure so 1 of the things being agrued is that odins horsemen are very akin to that of the Endless.
There coming to being was introduced in a nearly identical way. Scan
quote " let us now examine who or what it is that we bear witness.... THIRST was the firstborn of the hunters he came into being when the first living thing ached for anothers flesh. FEAR was born when the first living thing realized what it was to be hunted an realized they might not be once theyre caught." They go onto continue to say " FEAR was one of the first Conscious thoughts to ever be." Meaning fear of odins horsemen is indeed meant to be fear itself.

Next Scan quote " honor was born when the hunt decided it needed a code of conduct which may have been the birth of civilization itself. Or perhaps it may have been the moment beings gave themselves a license to kill outside from hunger. To further back this evidence of honor being honor itself we have honor stating that he is honor itself just like the Endless were stated to represent what they do.

Like the Endless the horsemen also follow rules of very similar sorts. As seen in the this Scan. Lucifer had betrayed the hunt multiple times, betrayal is not honorable thus he is out of honors domain an thirst is allowed his blood.

Also like the Endless who were discribed as primal truths beings who embodied different aspects of the universe. The horsemen were discribed very similarly theyre a primal force a pure act of the universe. And just like the endless who were discribed as a personification of an action. Theyre the act of predatory desires made flesh. Aka personification of an action. Part of 1s own dna meaning theyre also apart of just about everything

And like the Endless if u were to completely remove these being you would do damage to the all being as odin put it or all of creation.

And while not exactly like the Endless if one were to destroy there bodies the can simply reform elsewheres honor, thirst, fear etc Exists they will continue to do so as long the hunt continues.

An once it is completed the with shed there bodies into there natural state of being or return to slumber. Lucifer was almost able to completely remove these beings from existence by slaughtering them repeatedly and very quickly. All of this evidence the opposition is theyre not like the Endless. And not conceptual in nature. That being said if u need any scans from the endless feel free to ask i can find them

 

[Antvasima]

@C2_of_Omegon @Eficiente @Qawsedf234 @Sandman31 @SuperAPM @Firestorm808 @EmperorRorepme @LuciferDC099 @Ehnkr2beboh @Deagonx @Elizio33 @LordTracer @The_Impress @Planck69 @Confluctor @MarvelFanatic119 @catzlaflame @Armorchompy

What do you think about the above post?

 

[LuciferDC099]

I didn't read Lucifer 2018 so i can't give any input.

 

[Teezar]

I didn't read Lucifer 2018 so i can't give any input.

You're name is luciferdc.

 

[LuciferDC099]

You're name is luciferdc.

Yes, i'm a big fan of vertigo but didn't have time to read Lucifer 2018 and the Dreaming 2018 :/

 

[Teezar]

Yes, i'm a big fan of vertigo but didn't have time to read Lucifer 2018 and the Dreaming 2018 :/

I wanna read books of magic but ain't got the vibes.

 

[Antvasima]

So is somebody willing to create an extra key for the 2018 version of Lucifer, or do we not have enough data available for the statistics?

 

[Confluctor]

I think we either have to wait for sandman to do it or unwanted himself. Cause most of us haven't read this run and it's quite hard to make an extra key for something which we don't know the context for. Especially since the info on its statistics are extremely limited in this thread. P&A, I can add (albeit not today or tomorrow since I have work). Statistics, can't do that.

 

[Antvasima]

Okay. We should wait with the extra key or separate profile page then.

 

[Sandman31]

Immortality type 1, 2, 3 and 4: Can live without his heart. (Issue 8)
Even after he erased himself from existence, he was reborn as another angel similar to how Dream was reborn as Daniel. (Vol. 4)
Also should be like Michael who describes himself as eternal and divine as Yahweh is (Vol. 4)

Lucifer wasnt really reborn as another angel or like Dream and Daniel. The Creation the Presence made is cyclical and Lucifer being "reborn" there was just meant to show that Lucifer is still stuck inside the Presence's Creation, thats why he said that he escaped even for a brief moment. Lucifer erased himself from existence which is not part of the Presence's design/plan which is why it corrected itself and brought Lucifer back as another fallen angel.

Also, regarding the Wild Hunt.

Conceptual Manipulation: The four hunters are like the Endless, primordial force, an act made flesh, part of Lucifer's own dna and he destroyed them. Like the Endless they reincarnate back when they die, but he kept destroying there every incarnation until they were no more, doing harm to the fabric of all being

No, this is not necessarily conceptual manipulation/destruction. You don't need conceptual manipulation to destroy the hunters and the hunted god, just soul destruction

 

[Teezar]

Lucifer wasnt really reborn as another angel, The Creation the Presence made is cyclical and Lucifer being "reborn" there was just meant to show that Lucifer is still stuck inside the Presence's Creation. Lucifer erased himself from existence which is not part of the Presence's design/plan which is why it corrected itself and brought Lucifer back as another fallen angel.

Isn't this immortality type 8?

 

[Antvasima]

@Sandman31

So what should we do here exactly?