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Feats for the 2018 Lucifer Morningstar to use in his key and discuss

Antvasima said:
@Sandman31

So what should we do here exactly?\
Click to expand...
Well, for his tier I think we can still scale him to Dream of the Endless due to Dream's statement about how Lucifer is only second to the Presence.
I think in this canon Lucifer is still weaker than the Presence. Lucifer erased himself to be free from the cyclical plan of the Presence and even then the Presence just brought him back and restored everything back to normal

As for the abilities, I think most of it is fine aside from Immortality, Night Omniscience and Abstract Existence. I dont think he's nigh omniscient and I think the immortality and Abstract existence needs to be modified
 
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Okay. Would a new profile page for this version of the character be the best option?
 
Sandman31 said:
Well, for his tier I think we can still scale him to Dream of the Endless due to Dream's statement about how Lucifer is only second to the Presence.
I think in this canon Lucifer is still weaker than the Presence. Lucifer erased himself to be free from the cyclical plan of the Presence and even then the Presence just brought him back and restored everything back to normal
Click to expand...
Sandman31 said:
Lucifer wasnt really reborn as another angel or like Dream and Daniel. The Creation the Presence made is cyclical and Lucifer being "reborn" there was just meant to show that Lucifer is still stuck inside the Presence's Creation, thats why he said that he escaped even for a brief moment. Lucifer erased himself from existence which is not part of the Presence's design/plan which is why it corrected itself and brought Lucifer back as another fallen angel.
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Wouldn't this be immortality type 8?
 
Sandman31 said:
Lucifer wasnt really reborn as another angel, The Creation the Presence made is cyclical and Lucifer being "reborn" there was just meant to show that Lucifer is still stuck inside the Presence's Creation. Lucifer erased himself from existence which is not part of the Presence's design/plan which is why it corrected itself and brought Lucifer back as another fallen angel.
Click to expand...
Possible
Sandman31 said:
Also, regarding the Wild Hunt.

Conceptual Manipulation: The four hunters are like the Endless, primordial force, an act made flesh, part of Lucifer's own dna and he destroyed them. Like the Endless they reincarnate back when they die, but he kept destroying there every incarnation until they were no more, doing harm to the fabric of all being

No, this is not necessarily conceptual manipulation/destruction. You don't need conceptual manipulation to destroy the hunters and the hunted god, just soul destruction

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Click to expand...

The scan doesn't say that scorching the soul is what caused the hunted god to be destroyed.
Lucifer said when he was killing the hunters that they will end because coming back takes from their energy.
7791880-20210127_210512.jpg

Also, the hunted god is born as a random being anywhere in the universe, like the woman Lucifer was protecting.
When the hunted god manifests as a being it becomes that being until death.

This is not how the hunters manifest.
 
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Unwanted said:
Possible


The scan doesn't say that scorching the soul is what caused the hunted god to be destroyed.
Lucifer said when he was killing the hunters that they will end because coming back takes from their energy.

Also, the hunted god is born as a random being anywhere in the universe, like the woman Lucifer was protecting.
When the hunted god manifests as a being it becomes that being until death.

This is not how the hunters manifest.
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Sorry, cant really see any concept manipulation/destruction here. Them needing energy to come back actually made killing them much less impressive since that implies that you dont need to destroy any concept to kill them, just that you need to keep killing them
 
Sandman31 said:
Sorry, cant really see any concept manipulation/destruction here. Them needing energy to come back actually made killing them much less impressive since that implies that you dont need to destroy any concept to kill them, just that you need to keep killing them
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They are the concepts themeselves.

Oh yeah about what you said regarding his immortality, I thought about it again and I think you're wrong.
I think you said he returned only because it wasn’t part of the plan? but Samael the original angel who was Lucifer didn’t return and I don't think it was part of the plan for him to be erased as if he never existed, only lucifer returned. So I think this is related to Lucifer only and not anyone. It is a type of immortality.
 
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Teezar said:
Wouldn't this be immortality type 8?
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I don't think so. As far as I have understood, type 8 is automatic, not just somebody else resurrecting you if you are killed.
 
Antvasima said:
I don't think so. As far as I have understood, type 8 is automatic, not just somebody else resurrecting you if you are killed.
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Someone/something constantly Ressurecting you grants it actually without that person you'd be dead.
And sandman said lucifer is stuck in presence since he even erased himself and the presence revived him which lucifer said he escaped for a brief moment is a good sign the presence would keep reviving him.Lucifer erased himself from existence which is not part of the Presence's design/plan which is why it corrected itself and brought Lucifer back as another fallen angel.

Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.

I believe he qualifies for it based on how sandman explained it.
 
Okay. That is probably fine then.
 
Teezar said:
Someone/something constantly Ressurecting you grants it actually without that person you'd be dead.
And sandman said lucifer is stuck in presence since he even erased himself and the presence revived him which lucifer said he escaped for a brief moment is a good sign the presence would keep reviving him
Click to expand...
The Presence didn't return him because he disappeared too. The universe is circular so one way or another a conflict will happen in heaven and an angel will fall and Lucifer would return as that angel
Teezar said:
.Lucifer erased himself from existence which is not part of the Presence's design/plan which is why it corrected itself and brought Lucifer back as another fallen angel.
Click to expand...
This is not actually written in the comic as far as I know
Teezar said:
Reliant Immortality: The character gets benefited by 1 or more other types of Immortality as long as a certain being, object, place and/or concept or more may grant them those benefits, losing them otherwise. What exactly a user is reliant over, the benefits given from it, and how the process of the ability operates must be explained. Simply having some weakness that will kill a character when exploited doesn't qualify if it doesn't grant a form of Immortality, and also having other powers that do grant Immortality but are unrelated to that weakness does not count as well. It is discouraged to list this type if it would be redundant due to the same power already being described in another ability of the profile.

I believe he qualifies for it based on how sandman explained it.
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Not sure
But I think it qualifies for type 4
 
Probably because they consider them beautiful. Anyway, let's stop derailing.
 
Can somebody summarise what we currently need to evaluate and decide here please?
 
Antvasima said:
Can somebody summarise what we currently need to evaluate and decide here please?
Click to expand...
These are generally accepted:

Superhuman strength: Bent alien metal with a finger (issue 19)

Super speed, creation, biological manipulation and time manipulation (issue 14)

Fire Manipulation: Lit his cigarette with his finger (issue 15)

Light and empathic manipulation: Brought light to the Greek underworld and returned to the souls there there emotions (issue 12)

Matter manipulation: Stated he was the shaper of suns and the universe bent to his will (issue 3)

Reality Warping: Took a piece of hell and pushed it beyond the edge of everything, beyond the Presence's influence , despite that it is on Earth, Archangel Raguel strains to comprehend it and he becomes a mortal within it (issue 12 and 10)

Space manipulation: Can cut through space with a shard he created from the moon (issue 6)

Void manipulation: In Naraka, there's an ocean of void that was there before the place took form, Outside of the Presence's plan and his reach, Lucifer took a piece from it, and later folded it and warped it like a piece of clothing (issue 10 and 11)

Fate manipulation: Threatened to destroy Destiny of the Endless in his realm and Destiny admits he could do it. Held the book of Destiny which contains the universe, then proceeds to erase every mention of himself from it and by extension he erased himself from existence as if he never was (Vol. 4)

Teleportation: Teleported through fire (issue 16)

Dimensional Travel: Travels between the metaphysical realms (issue 12)

Healing: Restored his eyes (issue 1)

Shapeshifting: Changed his form from a cat to his regular form (issue 3)

Omnilingualisim: Speaks with insects (issue 14)

Precognition: Was implied by Mazikeen to have known what was going to happen since before he entered the skull and knew a man was going to kill himself through being prescient (issue 13)
-----------------------

These ones are debated:

Conceptual Manipulation: The four hunters are like the Endless, primordial force, an act made flesh, part of Lucifer's own dna and he destroyed them. Like the Endless they reincarnate back when they die, but he kept destroying there every incarnation until they were no more, doing harm to the fabric of all being (issue 17 and 19)

Abstract Existence Type 1 and 2: Not made of flesh (issue 16) Michael stated that angels are made of will
Is the embodiment of darkness, he and the Presence are the definitions of right and wrong (Vol. 4)

Immortality type 1, 2, 3 and 4: Can live without his heart. (Issue 8)
Even after he erased himself from existence, he was reborn as another angel similar to how Dream was reborn as Daniel. (Vol. 4)
Also should be like Michael who describes himself as eternal and divine as Yahweh is (Vol. 4)
-------------------------------

This one has been debunked:

Nigh-Omniscient: While in the physical world heard his name mentioned in the Greek underworld. (Issue 14)
His eyes can see the truth in all things. (Vol. 4)
"He can see very far and sense things in ways we do not have the language nor the space to elaborate upon within these pages". (Issue 19)
Other than that, he can read the book of destiny
 
Okay. However, the problem here is that we likely do not have enough available information to create an extra statistics key for this incarnation of the character.
 
His best feat would be manipulating the void and and making a piece of hell beyond everything, but because of the splitting verse thing and that Mike Carey's story is not canon to this one, I don't know what tier would this be.
 
Unwanted said:
The Presence didn't return him because he disappeared too. The universe is circular so one way or another a conflict will happen in heaven and an angel will fall and Lucifer would return as that angel
Click to expand...
The Presence did return him. Who do you think was the one who created the universe? its the Presence. Who do you think Lucifer was talking to after he returned? its the presence
1
Lucifer specifically said that the reason why the universe cyclical is because the Presence, his father, will set everything to right. Thats why he's trying to escape from the Presence.

"And yes my father will make them forget the horrors, will comfort them and set everything to rights. All will go back to the way it was As it has before and before and before. But for a short while I will have escaped"

Also, the hunted god is born as a random being anywhere in the universe, like the woman Lucifer was protecting.
When the hunted god manifests as a being it becomes that being until death.

It was stated that Lucifer did to the Hunters what he did to the Hunted God so yes, they are the same
 
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Sandman31 said:
The Presence did return him. Who do you think was the one who created the universe? its the Presence. Who do you think Lucifer was talking to after he returned? its the presence
1
Lucifer specifically said that the reason why the universe cyclical is because the Presence, his father, will set everything to right. Thats why he's trying to escape from the Presence.

"And yes my father will make them forget the horrors, will comfort them and set everything to rights. All will go back to the way it was As it has before and before and before. But for a short while I will have escaped"
Click to expand...
Indirectly, but fine. And anyway the Presence wasn't really erased like Lucifer, just became formless.
Sandman31 said:
Also, the hunted god is born as a random being anywhere in the universe, like the woman Lucifer was protecting.
When the hunted god manifests as a being it becomes that being until death.

It was stated that Lucifer did to the Hunters what he did to the Hunted God so yes, they are the same
Click to expand...
Ending them gradually as he was ending the hunted god. But the hunted god manifests differently from the hunters. The woman Lucifer was protecting was stated to be a mortal despite being a manifestation of the hunted. So the requirements of killing the its manifestations shouldn't automatically apply to the hunters whose bodies were stated to be metaphorical.
Also, he was killing them with a sword gifted to him by someone called sin. From the name I think it is someone of the same nature.
Sandman31 said:
Sandman is still canon so he's still more powerful than Dream
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What tier do you think they would be?
 
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Unwanted said:
Ending them gradually as he was ending the hunted god. But the hunted god manifests differently from the hunters. The woman Lucifer was protecting was stated to be a mortal despite being a manifestation of the hunted. So the requirements of killing the its manifestations shouldn't automatically apply to the hunters whose bodies were stated to be metaphorical.
Click to expand...
She only became mortal because of what Lucifer had done. Like thats the point of the entire storyline, The Hunted God being so diminished by Lucifer's act of killing it repeatedly (like what he did to the hunters) and that every time it comes back it comes back lesser than it was.

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/4iLjbtFWl...W_wLkQ4TK-8pdisE-rmeDSZKI3HI7S1rl5AL0Sw=s1600
"It would appear that you are a mere whisper of what you once were"

https://2.bp.blogspot.com/rcnCE1bu4...wIinRLc3b_f5z5q_KKSYbdV-MqlGoMnuWwb9QvQ=s1600

"An impossible thing, reborn after all this time. You are extremely diminished, this is true"

He was only doing to the Hunters what he did to the Hunted God before. Killing them repeatedly, each time they are killed they become weaker and weaker

@Antvasima
Yeah, I'll make a draft first
 
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Okay. Thank you for the help.
 
I've stumbled upon this interview where Dan Watters (the writer of this comic) says Lucifer is nearly omniscient:

8396659-studio_20220303_125743.png


Also, hiding the hunted god from him required "great and terrible power" interference from Destiny of the Endless:

8396669-rco009_1576697267-1.jpg


So he is nigh-omniscient after all.
 
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