Expanding the Genshin Energy Systems

[GarrixianXD]

Her realm wasnt erased iirc, only rukkhadevata, since nahida can still reach into realm of conciousness where irminsul is because nahida is just rukkhadevata after she expended all her strenght to purify sumeru and reduced into child

Didn't the realm of consciousness disappear along with her remaining consciousness?

 

[Woomica]

Didn't the realm of consciousness disappear along with her remaining consciousness?

From this long dialouges between the two, it appears that only rukkhadeavta conciousness dissapeared as well as forbiden knowledge not the realm itself, even here they say that the realm looks better than before after cleansing the corruption so...

 

[GarrixianXD]

From this long dialouges between the two, it appears that only rukkhadeavta conciousness dissapeared as well as forbiden knowledge not the realm itself, even here they say that the realm looks better than before after cleansing the corruption so...

Welp, womp womp then. I'll be removing conceptual erasure, and Nahida's conceptual erasure should also be removed from her profile. Though, it'll need a CRT; I'll make the removal revision after this is concluded.

 

[Woomica]

Welp, womp womp then. I'll be removing conceptual erasure, and Nahida's conceptual erasure should also be removed from her profile. Though, it'll need a CRT; I'll make the removal revision after this is concluded.

there is nothing to remove abt her lol, i was discussing why is she example of why BDE is contradicted by the fact she got erased completely, and irminsul is nahidas realm of conciousness too since shes rukkhadevata too, her incarnation if you wanna be full precise
if this sounds confusing, well Rukkhadevata shrank into nahida 500 years ago, but because rukkhadevata counciousness was connected to the tree she had to erase herself to cleanse the tree, so now its only nahida (her incarnation) there, i can timestamp whole dialogue if you want to

 

[Breakdown]

there is nothing to remove abt her lol, i was discussing why is she example of why BDE is contradicted by the fact she got erased completely, and irminsul is nahidas realm of conciousness too since shes rukkhadevata too, her incarnation if you wanna be full precise
if this sounds confusing, well Rukkhadevata shrank into nahida 500 years ago, but because rukkhadevata counciousness was connected to the tree she had to erase herself to cleanse the tree, so now its only nahida (her incarnation) there, i can timestamp whole dialogue if you want to

Rukkhadevatta is/was Irminsul. She had to erase herself to cleanse the tree because she was corrupted, and the only was that was possible was by Nahida doing it. So it’s not a BDE anti feat.

 

[Weaver261]

One question tho....Why you keep using "Universe" for the replacement of "world"?? Genshin is a universe but most of the events happened on Teyvat which is planet. Almost nobody can pass thru the barrier Primordial One made. Catalysm also only happened in Teyvat and there was no statement of saying that event happened in all of the universe. Am I tripping here?

 

[GarrixianXD]

One question tho....Why you keep using "Universe" for the replacement of "world"?? Genshin is a universe but most of the events happened on Teyvat which is planet. Almost nobody can pass thru the barrier Primordial One made. Catalysm also only happened in Teyvat and there was no statement of saying that event happened in all of the universe. Am I tripping here?

Universe as in all 3 known realms together, and the chaos beyond Teyvat. Teyvat itself is often referred to as the world; also, it's not a planet, it's stated to be Universal in size.

 

[Weaver261]

Universe as in all 3 known realms together, and the chaos beyond Teyvat. Teyvat itself is often referred to as the world; also, it's not a planet, it's stated to be Universal in size.

Hate to break it to you but english localization seems wrong. I don't know chinese but it's stated as "world" or "heaven and earth" in chinese website

 

[GarrixianXD]

Hate to break it to you but english localization seems wrong. I don't know chinese but it's stated as "world" or "heaven and earth" in chinese website

天地 is actually the ancient concept for the Universe, that the Earth and sky contain all things in creation. Therefore, it is also used to denote the Universe as an archaic term, and it is used in various classic and traditional Chinese literature as well (notably Xianxia novels). Nothing wrong with the English localisation at all.

 

[Weaver261]

天地 is actually the ancient concept for the Universe, that the Earth and sky contain all things in creation. Therefore, it is also used to denote the Universe as an archaic term, and it is used in various classic and traditional Chinese literature as well (notably Xianxia novels). Nothing wrong with the English localisation at all.

Normally yes but since it's literally "Earth and sky", it should refer to Celestia and Teyvat. Not to mention, Planet is closed within the barrier and catalysm happened when Vinister king tore that apart in Khaenri'ah. Catalysm happened only in Teyvat and its planet. There was no statement catalysm happening all over the universe. The universe was already filled with abyssal power, that's why Primordial One made the barrier to protect Teyvat. That's why tearing that barrier resulted in catalysm. Using the universe word based on "天地" usage in other medias alone shouldn't suffice. Different media can mean different things.

 

[GarrixianXD]

What

 

[Le'garde273]

One question tho....Why you keep using "Universe" for the replacement of "world"?? Genshin is a universe but most of the events happened on Teyvat which is planet. Almost nobody can pass thru the barrier Primordial One made. Catalysm also only happened in Teyvat and there was no statement of saying that event happened in all of the universe. Am I tripping here?

I believe this depend context tbh, we mainly should be talked about light realm which realm of pure elemental and to be said as purest origin of all thing, hence why their authority even able to create universe. Teyvat just only a planet in human realm that rebuild over light realm, abyss also once stated as ancient world but also multiple time referred as dark universe that exist with infinite possibilities, and light realm exist diametrically oppose it. In Before sun and moon, before primordial one conquer the light realm it's stated to be universe and he trying to seperated the universe with it microcosm.

Normally yes but since it's literally "Earth and sky", it should refer to Celestia and Teyvat. Not to mention, Planet is closed within the barrier and catalysm happened when Vinister king tore that apart in Khaenri'ah. Catalysm happened only in Teyvat and its planet. There was no statement catalysm happening all over the universe. The universe was already filled with abyssal power, that's why Primordial One made the barrier to protect Teyvat. That's why tearing that barrier resulted in catalysm. Using the universe word based on "天地" usage in other medias alone shouldn't suffice. Different media can mean different things.

"The universe was already filled with abyssal power, that's why Primordial One made the barrier to protect Teyvat"

This most likely assumption i believe, might be true but it's never confirmed yet.

 

[Astral_Trinity439]

The physical realm usually denotes the Universe, and transcending the boundaries of the Universe does account for BDE Type 1 since you're unbound by the spatial and temporal features of the Universe and, therefore not a part of space and time.

Not really, you could get BDE1 via that if it were the old standards, I do remember someone getting BDE1 at that time through such a notion, but now? Not at all.
Even if someone transcends and exists outside the universe/space-time, what suggests that there isn't space outside a single space-time?

We're not talking about cosmology here, but about if there can be space outside a 4D Space-time. And yes, to that answer, there can be. So being outside the boundaries of the universe is not, strictly speaking, BDE1.

In your example, and in the specific part I bolded, the character would not be a part of regular 4-dimensional space-time, not any notion of space and time within their level of reality. BDE1 is not just "lacking space-time on a 4D level and instead existing in 5D", those kind of standards are history at this point, BDE1is instead "lacking space-time completely to the point of not existing in any time or space at all[with said level of reality]".

BDE1 isn't just about "not being bound by spatiotemporal features of the universe" but "not being bound by space or time at all on all levels within a given reality level".

Honestly, I didn't even notice this (And yeah, b4 you ask, no I did not write the entire sandbox by myself). Yeah, I don't think it should be connected to text manipulation; I'll remove the link.

No problem.

 

[Giannysmag]

Spoiler: UES

Tartaglia using electro power from his delusion and uses it to channel electricity throughout his body and amplify his base statistics,[1] then uses Abyssal Energy[2] for him to transform into foul-legacy,[3][4] further enhancing his statistics, a transformed state that is far beyond his base, to the point he can even contend with the All Devouring Narwhal.[5][6]
Signora used her cryo delusion to suppress the uncontrollable flame power,[7][8][9][10] inhibiting it from causing any inadverent destruction. She was also able to reawaken then amplify her power and durability upon re-channeling flames of Pyro throughout her body.[11]
The Raiden Shogun channels electricity from her Electro powers to enter a new state of transformation that stretches beyond her base power, and allows her to move at flashing lightning-speeds beyond her displayed motions of movement.[12] Raiden Ei is also capable of performing the same feat.[13]

None of these transformations are shown making the physically stronger. Raiden and Signora get a boost to their elemental powers and Tart's Foul Legacy is an Abyssal power anyway so it wouldn't even count

Scaramouche using the Electro-Gnosis to power-up the Shouki no Kami, allowing him to reach godlike powers on-par with that of The Raiden Shogun's elemental authority, essentially reaching a true state of divinity.[14]

Again none of the links here show he has gotten physically stronger. But even if he did (which he did tbf) I'd attribute that to him being a giant **** all robot rather than any Gnosis shenahigans unless you have a scan showing that the Gnosis power specifically is making him physically stronger

Ok so let's actually talk about the relation between elemental energy and physicals. While it is true that various characters can do things like coat their weapons or fists with elements to make them stronger, coat their body with elements to move really fast or create elemental forcefields for defense, it's important to remember that any time this happens it is shown visually and there are many many many times where characters are clashing or keeping up with eachother without the use of their elements (see every fight with the Traveler) so the scaling would be effected accordingly.

I already mentioned in DMs that I think the stats should look smth like
Striking Strength: X physically, Y with elemental enhancment
Durability: X physically, Y with forcefields/shields
Where Y is their AP with elemental powers. This is of course unless the character has feats of their regular physicals being on par with the AP of their elements in which case they'd all be in the same Tier.

Spoiler: Abilities

Allogenes are known as vision carriers and anyone who is capable of using Elemental Power. Their abilities and potency to manipulate their respective elements are bestowed by their gods, if they were to have an extremely powerful desire.[16] The ambition of allogenes are even as strong enough, to be able to potentially ascend upon Celestia and achieve godhood.[17]
However, once an allogene loses their vision, their ambition also becomes greatly diminished and causes them a massive change in-personality, usually for the worst and makes it easier for them to manifest their weaknesses.[18]
With said, all allogenes are automatically granted Supernatural Willpower and Empowerment.

Allogenes gaining their visions through their ambitions isn't grounds for supernatural willpower, since there's no specification on what those ambitions are or how hard they fight for them. Infact throughout various characters Vision Stories you see them gaining visions for relatively mundane acts such as Alhaitham reading a book or Lisa literally just thinking about getting a vision. Empowerment is fine tho

Light Manipulation and Energy Projection (The power of the Light Realm is released from the Tower of Enkanomiya, which sparks a tree of light and a seamless beam of photon energy[38][37])

This is technically not wrong but basically no one would be able to use light manip since the Dainichi Mikoshi was created through knowledge granted by Istaroth (and obviously no one has used light powers in the game so far)

Speech, Memory, Emotion, Perception, Soul and Information Transmutation (All Types; Wielders of elements, especially an elemental creature, can convert knowledge, speech, emotions and memories into pure elemental energy.[27][28] The Memories reside in the soul, which contains the consciousness[Honkai: Star Rail 1] and fundamental information[Honkai: Star Rail 2][Note 1])

This is a recurring point throughout the page so let's get it out of the way. While it is true that the Genshin world is a leaf of the Imaginary Tree, Teyvat is sealed off from the rest of the Universe via the fake sky and more importantly has it's own laws. Unless similair statements are made about the nature of the Soul in Genshin we shouldn't be crosscaling these rules. So any correlation between the soul and memories/information/conciousness or vice versa should be removed

Non-Physical Interaction (Allogenes can interact and fight against each other, using their respective elements)

You... you know allogenes are humans right? They are physical beings, them interacting with eachother wouldn't be NPI

Soul, Mental, Memories, Elemental Energy and Information (All Types; Allogenes are capable of directly interacting with Elemental Lifeforms.[42][23] Elemental Power can interact with Ley Lines that contains a network of souls,[43] which also contains the consciousness[Honkai: Star Rail 1] and fundamental information[Honkai: Star Rail 2])

I don't understand the logic here. Elemental energy and souls flow through the Ley Lines but that doesn't mean there's any correlation between the two. Piss and shit both flow through sewage pipes but that doesn't mean they are the same thing or have the same properties (this is the best analogy I could think of)

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; The Deities with elemental authorities, such as the Archons, are capable of tampering with the realms of consciousness,[55] which are concepts that are independent from a being's consciousness and exists outside of the Universe.[12] One's realm of consciousness may locally shape the history of its nation,[12] or even contain all of Irminsul which is the World Tree of the Universe itself[60][14])

The wording here is very misleading. Yae's exact quote is "To outsiders the realm of conciousness is a very abstract concept, luckily I am Ei's familiar, so I can sense her rough whereabouts". The use of "abstract concept" here isn't literal, Yae is just saying that the ream of conciousness is hard to grasp and sense for those who aren't familiar with it. Also the cutscene you linked shows no indication that the RoC exists outside of the universe, infact Yae even says that the Chaos surrounding the RoC could sweep the Traveler away to an unknown corner of space-time, implying that the Chaos and by extention the RoC also exist within space-time

Enhanced Existence Erasure (Soul, Information (Type 2), Memories, History and Concept (Type 1)) and Greatly Enhanced Information Manipulation (Type 2; Nahida erased Greater Lord Rukkhadevata's realm of consciousness and cut its connection with Irminsul with her elemental authority.[14] Greater Lord Rukkhadevata's realm of consciousness universally shaped and governed all of Irminsul from 500 years ago, causing it to be disconnected from Irminsul's entire history.[14] Simultaneously as a byproduct, Greater Lord Rukkhadevata fundamental existence was completely erased from history[14])

This would be a Nahida exclusive ability since she specifically has the power to control Irminsul

Avatar Creation (Archons can create or possess vessels that serves as their mortal avatars.[61][62][63][64][65] Anything harm that is inflicted upon their vessels have no effect upon their true forms[66][17][67])

The only character that this would apply to is Ei since her conciousness is completely removed from her physical body. For every other god their conciousness would diminiss and fade if their body is destroyed, this also applies to Archons since Makoto died from physical injuries.

Ley Lines Manipulation (As a divine being who achieved True Will, archons are unbound by all of the concepts that shape up the Ley Line system, the Universe's premise. The ley lines systems contains elemental energy, souls and memories that makes-up reality's fundamental existence, laws and history[70][71])

"While, for the most part, it was divided into memory, wishes, soul, and persona, a spirit's qualities still carried complex distinctions... Among these, the state that came closest to the perfect freedom that divinities possessed was named "True Will"... The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point... Perhaps it was through this power that the ancients achieved transcendence from the physical realm." Nothing here says that True Will makes you unbound from souls, memories or elemental energy, geniuenly how did get to this conclusion.

Beyond-Dimensional Existence (Type 1; Human will is consisted of the conceptual nature of the spirit and will, systems that consists of the concepts of memories, wishes and the fundamental soul which are practically concepts that makes up the entire Ley Lines system, that shapes the Universe itself. Those who achieved divinity are granted a state so-called "True Will", and through this "True Will", it allows a divine being to be completely unbounded by human will, thus the Ley Line network, allowing them to transcend beyond the physical reality.[70] Through Immortality, it allows one to transcend all laws that pertains to the Universe[71])

This is a mischaracterization of what True Will is. True Will and the trancendence mentioned is merely the Rumerians discarding their physical bodies through Phobos and having their souls placed in the stone golems, thus making them immortal. It's important to note that even with this trancendence the Rumerians still couldn't escape their fate. So it should be pretty obvious that this doesn't actually qualify for BDE

Conceptual Manipulation (Type 1; Through achieving "True Will" derived from the archon's immortality and divinity, they transcend the concepts of spirit of will -- fundamental concepts that shape up the Universal Ley Lines network of souls and memories.[70][71] Will is correspondent to one's determination and ambition, which transcends all of space and time, therefore lies independent from the Universe;[73] the spirit corresponds to the soul, which is consisted of fundamental information[Honkai: Star Rail 2] that shapes up all of reality[Honkai: Star Rail 3][Honkai: Star Rail 4][Honkai: Star Rail 5] and life[Honkai: Star Rail 5])

True Will does not involve trancending the spirit of will or whatever. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." It is the detachment of human will from the physical body, not the detachment from human will

Incorporeality ([Souls, Memories and Elemental Energy]; Elemental lifeforms are consisted of elemental energy, which makes up the network of Ley Lines. The Ley Lines are a flow and system of souls,[43]memories and elemental energy itself[49])
Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Fundamental Information]; Elemental lifeforms and spirits are consisted purely of elemental energy.[80] Elemental energy are said to be the building blocks of all of the Universe[41])
Enhanced Incorporeality ([Souls, Memories and Elemental Energy]; Sovereigns can only be born from dragons who are elementally pure, therefore can only be born from entities fully consisted of elemental energy, therefore they are pure and refined Elemental lifeforms.[74] Elemental lifeforms are consisted of elemental energy, which makes up the network of Ley Lines. The Ley Lines are a flow and system of souls,[43]memories and elemental energy itself[49])
Enhanced Abstract Existence (Type 1 [Fundamental Information]; Elemental lifeforms and spirits are consisted purely of elemental energy.[42] Elemental energy are said to be the building blocks of all of the Universe.[41] The Seven Dragon Sovereigns are considered the pinnacle lifeforms to ever harness primordial elemental energy[37][75][74][76][77])

Elemental lifeforms are corporeal lol

Acausality (Type 4 [Resistant to Causality Manipulation, Fate Manipulation, Precognition and Time Manipulation]; Elemental energy is said to have existed before the concept of time was even established, making it unbound by the concept of time entirely[78])

"Before time had a name, the first Spinjitsu Master created Ninjago" ahh statements

Being fr tho these are just legends and flowery talk ("Legend has it", "It is said that"), nothing concrete

Reality Warping and Precognition (Witches of Hexenzirkel are able to see through fate and create new stories and destinies through prophecies, altering the world and the history of the future to ensure its fulfillment[88][89][90][Note 2])

The reality warping part is misleading since the witches can only alter the worlds that they create based on the scan (i.e Simulanka)

Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation (The Yakshas, with the paragon being Xiao, are predominately reowned for their purge against evil and divine karma.[107][108] Causality is irreversibly attached to fate[69])

HOW IS THIS FATE MANIP BRO???? JUST CAUSE THEY SAY THE WORD KARMA????

Ley Lines Manipulation will be assigned to Raiden Shogun via planting the Sakura Tree which is connected to the ley lines

This means nothing. I can also plant trees, do I get the ability to do photosynthesis?

Traveller who can activate Ley Line Outcrops.

The Ley Line Outcrops are formed from someone's desire for battle, they are a property of Ley Lines not an ability of the Traveler's

There is so much shit in here (and we only have a bit of time before grace hits so I neeeded to be quick), so I likely missed some stuff but for now these are the most glaring issues

 

[GarrixianXD]

Seems like your understanding of energy systems and various terminologies is flawed.

This is technically not wrong but basically no one would be able to use light manip since the Dainichi Mikoshi was created through knowledge granted by Istaroth (and obviously no one has used light powers in the game so far)

This is fine.

This is a recurring point throughout the page so let's get it out of the way. While it is true that the Genshin world is a leaf of the Imaginary Tree, Teyvat is sealed off from the rest of the Universe via the fake sky and more importantly has it's own laws. Unless similair statements are made about the nature of the Soul in Genshin we shouldn't be crosscaling these rules. So any correlation between the soul and memories/information/conciousness or vice versa should be removed

I disagree. Simply because it's said to have its own laws and been sealed, as a basis to remove any connection to the Imaginary Tree, is a hasty generalisation. Different Bubble Universes in Honkai were said to have their own laws as well; that doesn't mean anything by itself.

You... you know allogenes are humans right? They are physical beings, them interacting with eachother wouldn't be NPI

I put interacting with elemental lifeforms. It seems like you didn't properly read the current vision of my sandbox.

The wording here is very misleading. Yae's exact quote is "To outsiders the realm of conciousness is a very abstract concept, luckily I am Ei's familiar, so I can sense her rough whereabouts". The use of "abstract concept" here isn't literal, Yae is just saying that the ream of conciousness is hard to grasp and sense for those who aren't familiar with it. Also the cutscene you linked shows no indication that the RoC exists outside of the universe, infact Yae even says that the Chaos surrounding the RoC could sweep the Traveler away to an unknown corner of space-time, implying that the Chaos and by extention the RoC also exist within space-time

Obviously, Ei is familiar with Makoto's realm of consciousness and has access to it, not to mention it is a conceptual space. Being abstract isn't an analogy to being confusing. The scan you provided is rather the actual context that's misleading since Yae was referring to the failures of entering a realm of consciousness.

This would be a Nahida exclusive ability since she specifically has the power to control Irminsul

It was only mentioned that she rules over Irminsul. Nothing states that she has absolute control over Irminsul, other than erasing Rukkhavetta's consciousness from it.

The only character that this would apply to is Ei since her conciousness is completely removed from her physical body. For every other god their conciousness would diminiss and fade if their body is destroyed, this also applies to Archons since Makoto died from physical injuries.

Xiao only said that their consciousness may diminish, not referring to any bodies whatsoever. This is out of context and misleading.

Nothing here says that True Will makes you unbound from souls, memories or elemental energy, geniuenly how did get to this conclusion.

Read again and that passage infers that souls, memories, etc. are all attributions to the concept of will.

This is a mischaracterization of what True Will is. True Will and the trancendence mentioned is merely the Rumerians discarding their physical bodies through Phobos and having their souls placed in the stone golems, thus making them immortal. It's important to note that even with this trancendence the Rumerians still couldn't escape their fate. So it should be pretty obvious that this doesn't actually qualify for BDE

Lack of relevance from what you provided. The fate was explicitly mentioned to be imposed by Celestia, and that of Fortuna, had nothing to do with natural fate itself.

True Will does not involve trancending the spirit of will or whatever. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." It is the detachment of human will from the physical body, not the detachment from human will

This logic of yours doesn't feel commutable. It was explicitly said to be detached from human will, and you're claiming "only detached from human will from the physical body"; this is incoherent.

Elemental lifeforms are corporeal lol

The Corporeal form.

This means nothing. I can also plant trees, do I get the ability to do photosynthesis?

Raiden's hair was glowing when she planted the tree, therefore she was using her powers to do so.

"Before time had a name, the first Spinjitsu Master created Ninjago" ahh statements Being fr tho these are just legends and flowery talk ("Legend has it", "It is said that"), nothing concrete

Huh, didn't catch this. I'll take it then.

Edit: Actually, simply because it's a populous rumour doesn't guarantee that it is completely wrong. I'll list it as a possibly rating instead.

The Ley Line Outcrops are formed from someone's desire for battle, they are a property of Ley Lines not an ability of the Traveler's

It was only said to have formed and appeared. Traveller was directly shown to interact with it.

 

[GarrixianXD]

Not really, you could get BDE1 via that if it were the old standards, I do remember someone getting BDE1 at that time through such a notion, but now? Not at all.
Even if someone transcends and exists outside the universe/space-time, what suggests that there isn't space outside a single space-time?

We're not talking about cosmology here, but about if there can be space outside a 4D Space-time. And yes, to that answer, there can be. So being outside the boundaries of the universe is not, strictly speaking, BDE1.

In your example, and in the specific part I bolded, the character would not be a part of regular 4-dimensional space-time, not any notion of space and time within their level of reality. BDE1 is not just "lacking space-time on a 4D level and instead existing in 5D", those kind of standards are history at this point, BDE1is instead "lacking space-time completely to the point of not existing in any time or space at all[with said level of reality]".

BDE1 isn't just about "not being bound by spatiotemporal features of the universe" but "not being bound by space or time at all on all levels within a given reality level".

Beyond-Dimensional Existence

The Old Ones were, the Old Ones are, and the Old Ones shall be. Not in the spaces we know, but between them, They walk serene and primal, undimensioned and to us unseen.H.P Lovecraft, The Dunwich Horror Beyond-Dimensional Existence is the state of existing beyond dimensions. In the majority of...

vsbattles.fandom.com

Type 1 BDE standards weren't changed, iirc.

 

[Giannysmag]

Seems like your understanding of energy systems and various terminologies is flawed.

Nah uh

I disagree. Simply because it's said to have its own laws and been sealed, as a basis to remove any connection to the Imaginary Tree, is a hasty generalisation. Different Bubble Universes in Honkai were said to have their own laws as well; that doesn't mean anything by itself.

Well the difference is that Teyvat and it's creatures were specifically shaped by the Primordial One and Genshin souls have the unique property of being able to ascend to godhood after death, so I think it's safer to assume that the Honkai rules don't crosscale. Also I am not familiar with HI3, like at all, but do these bubble universes with different laws retain the same rules regarding the soul?

I put interacting with elemental lifeforms. It seems like you didn't properly read the current vision of my sandbox.

I did and you still have the allogene justification in there. You do mention the elemental liforms later but then why do you still have the allogene part?

Obviously, Ei is familiar with Makoto's realm of consciousness and has access to it, not to mention it is a conceptual space. Being abstract isn't an analogy to being confusing.

It is not a conceptual realm, like I said the use of concept is simply to say that the idea of a realm of consiousness is hard to grasp. Also Yae outright says that the realm has a spacial location so idk how it can be an actual abstract concept at the same time. To qoute our Concept Manip page:

Independent Universal Concepts: Such concepts are completely independent from the part of reality they govern, except maybe of other concepts of this nature. These concepts shape all of reality within their area of influence and at whatever level that area exists in, and everything in it "participates" in these concepts. For example, a circular object is circular because it is "participating" in the concept of "circle-ness". In this way, the alteration of these concepts will change every object of the concept across all of their area of influence, while the opposite wouldn't affect the concept.

The scan you provided is rather the actual context that's misleading since Yae was referring to the failures of entering a realm of consciousness.

Yes because the realm is surrounded by Chaos and that Chaos exists within space-time, thus the realm it surrounds also would

It was only mentioned that she rules over Irminsul. Nothing states that she has absolute control over Irminsul, other than erasing Rukkhavetta's consciousness from it.

Raiden says
"With the power she holds, Buer is capable of doing many things beyond our wildest imaginations..."
This power obviously being her control over Irminsul which would imply that Raiden herself has no power over Irminsul

Xiao only said that their consciousness may diminish, not referring to any bodies whatsoever. This is out of context and misleading.

It is not out of context
"Morax defeated those gods and buried their remains beneath the rocks of the earth.

However, gods are immortal. Their consciousness may diminish, but their power and hatred will always remain and spread like poison, relentlessly stirring up chaos for the world and its inhabitants."
Morax killed the gods and that caused their conciousness to diminish, with only their power and hatred lingering. Also did you just choose to ignore the Makoto point?

Read again and that passage infers that souls, memories, etc. are all attributions to the concept of will.
Lack of relevance from what you provided. The fate was explicitly mentioned to be imposed by Celestia, and that of Fortuna, had nothing to do with natural fate itself.

This logic of yours doesn't feel commutable. It was explicitly said to be detached from human will, and you're claiming "only detached from human will from the physical body"; this is incoherent.

That is not what I said nor is it what is said in the scans. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." Those who obtained True Will aren't detached from human will, it's their human will that gets ditached

The Corporeal form.

Yes the eye of the storm is the corporial form of anemo energy and it's an elemental lifeform, thus elemental lifeforms are corporial.

Raiden's hair was glowing when she planted the tree, therefore she was using her powers to do so.

Which doesn't change what I said, just because she planted the tree doesn't mean she has control over the Ley Lines

It was only said to have formed and appeared. Traveller was directly shown to interact with it.

I guess that's true. It's still weird to give the Traveler all these abilities that they've never even attempted using before based on just this one thing. Hell I don't think they've ever even tried manipulating the Ley Lines in any quest at all

 

[Breakdown]

Huh, didn't catch this. I'll take it then.

Edit: Actually, simply because it's a populous rumour doesn't guarantee that it is completely wrong. I'll list it as a possibly rating instead.

We have verses which use a lot of legends as acceptable evidence in their ratings. No need to change ratings.

 

[Giannysmag]

We have verses which use a lot of legends as acceptable evidence in their ratings. No need to change ratings.

What's that thing that mods say often? "Just because other verses with different rules/contexes do smth doesn't mean we can do it too". It's very hard for me to believe that the people spreading these legends in universe somehow know what happened before the existance of time itself you know

 

[KingNanaya]

What's that thing that mods say often? "Just because other verses with different rules/contexes do smth doesn't mean we can do it too".

There's a difference between Whataboutism and citing an established precedent. I'm not sure what the situation for this thread is, as I haven't read through it.

 

[Giannysmag]

Lack of relevance from what you provided.

The relevance for what I provided is the fact that the Remurians (which are the ancients mentioned in the True Will scan and the ones to have obtained True Will) trancended in the sense that they ditached from their physical bodies and became immortal, which is not grounds for BDE

 

[Breakdown]

What's that thing that mods say often? "Just because other verses with different rules/contexes do smth doesn't mean we can do it too". It's very hard for me to believe that the people spreading these legends in universe somehow know what happened before the existance of time itself you know

As was said, there is precedent for this, and that’s an argument from incredulity on your part.

 

[Giannysmag]

As was said, there is precedent for this,

Again different verses where these legends most likely have more reason to be considered factual

and that’s an argument from incredulity on your part.

It is not. We know that time existed since at least the moment the Primordial One arrived as "Before Sun and Moon" mentions the years following it's arrival and they created humanity 400 years after that, so humans spreadding these legends physically could not have existed before time to know if elements did

 

[Breakdown]

Again different verses where these legends most likely have more reason to be considered factual

It is not. We know that time existed since at least the moment the Primordial One arrived as "Before Sun and Moon" mentions the years following it's arrival and they created humanity 400 years after that, so humans spreadding these legends physically could not have existed before time to know if elements did

I mean, they don’t really have any special rules in place for the lore in said verses. I really don’t know what to tell you other than the fact that lore is generally acceptable, as creators typically just make stuff being legendary to make their information seem cooler. We also don’t know how those legends started in verse. What we do know is that that information is put in game by the game makers on purpose to be taken seriously.

 

[Giannysmag]

I mean, they don’t really have any special rules in place for the lore in said verses. I really don’t know what to tell you other than the fact that lore is generally acceptable, as creators typically just make stuff being legendary to make their information seem cooler. We also don’t know how those legends started in verse. What we do know is that that information is put in game by the game makers on purpose to be taken seriously.

I mean if you wanna play the "what was the writters intention" game I think it's a lot more likely that the whole "before time eixsted" thing is intended to just be flowery language to say that something is really really old

 

[Breakdown]

I mean if you wanna play the "what was the writters intention" game I think it's a lot more likely that the whole "before time eixsted" thing is intended to just be flowery language to say that something is really really old

Flowery language is just a fancy way of saying nuh uh.

 

[Giannysmag]

Flowery language is just a fancy way of saying nuh uh.

What do you want from me bro, it's literally a legend and hearsay in universe and "before time existed" is such a common exaggeration for something just being super old (dinosaur media often uses this, so I guess we gotta give all dinosaurs acausality type 4). If there was ever a statement that I could say is flowery language it would be this

 

[Breakdown]

What do you want from me bro, it's literally a legend and hearsay in universe and "before time existed" is such a common exaggeration for something just being super old (dinosaur media often uses this, so I guess we gotta give all dinosaurs acausality type 4).

How dare you lowball dinosaurs

 

[Elizhaa]

I am with the proposals from GarrixianXD's evidences and arguments.

 

[GarrixianXD]

We have verses which use a lot of legends as acceptable evidence in their ratings. No need to change ratings.

I personally don't really like the idea of using legends to give solid ratings and abilities, since it is not 100 percent precise either.

Nah uh

Well the difference is that Teyvat and it's creatures were specifically shaped by the Primordial One and Genshin souls have the unique property of being able to ascend to godhood after death, so I think it's safer to assume that the Honkai rules don't crosscale. Also I am not familiar with HI3, like at all, but do these bubble universes with different laws retain the same rules regarding the soul?

It would pertain to souls in Teyvat, but I don't see how it strictly differentiates that from other worlds of the Imaginary Tree. Especially it was on the same screen as Otto's computer.

I did and you still have the allogene justification in there. You do mention the elemental liforms later but then why do you still have the allogene part?

I'll do a respelling and scrutinity once I post it.

It is not a conceptual realm, like I said the use of concept is simply to say that the idea of a realm of consiousness is hard to grasp. Also Yae outright says that the realm has a spacial location so idk how it can be an actual abstract concept at the same time. To qoute our Concept Manip page:

1+1 is also a concept, obviously, that's not hard to grasp.

Also, Yae did confirm it is an abstract space after all. Simply it's said to have spatial coordinates doesn't exactly say it is a part of Teyvat. Abstract mathematical space also has coordinates. Not to mention the realms of consciousness has already been accepeted as a type 1 concept, so you might as well make another CRT if you have a definite issue against it.

Yes because the realm is surrounded by Chaos and that Chaos exists within space-time, thus the realm it surrounds also would

....huh? This is affirming the consequent.

Raiden says
"With the power she holds, Buer is capable of doing many things beyond our wildest imaginations..."
This power obviously being her control over Irminsul which would imply that Raiden herself has no power over Irminsul

And it wasn't mentioned that Nahida has control over Irminsul. She could simply be referring to her abilities to control the mind, possess inanimate objects or even manipulate the Akasha Terminal, trapping people in infinite dream loops. This is just pure divine fallacy.

It is not out of context
"Morax defeated those gods and buried their remains beneath the rocks of the earth.

However, gods are immortal. Their consciousness may diminish, but their power and hatred will always remain and spread like poison, relentlessly stirring up chaos for the world and its inhabitants."
Morax killed the gods and that caused their conciousness to diminish, with only their power and hatred lingering. Also did you just choose to ignore the Makoto point?

Oh, didn't see that part. My bad then. Though it happens when they die, so I suppose it makes sense; I wouldn't consider that an ability disqualifier. Also, the remains itself can mean anything, especially considering Genshin where gnoses are the remains of the Third Descender, which is a source of divine power.

That is not what I said nor is it what is said in the scans. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." Those who obtained True Will aren't detached from human will, it's their human will that gets ditached

If it's the latter that you argue, then the passage would've written it like that, they abandon their personal wills. This clearly mentions human will in a general sense.

Which doesn't change what I said, just because she planted the tree doesn't mean she has control over the Ley Lines

She used her powers to plant the seed, then the tree grew within seconds. That obviously should hint that its growth is supported by Raiden's powers.

 

[Shey]

Spoiler: UES

None of these transformations are shown making the physically stronger. Raiden and Signora get a boost to their elemental powers and Tart's Foul Legacy is an Abyssal power anyway so it wouldn't even count


Again none of the links here show he has gotten physically stronger. But even if he did (which he did tbf) I'd attribute that to him being a giant **** all robot rather than any Gnosis shenahigans unless you have a scan showing that the Gnosis power specifically is making him physically stronger

Ok so let's actually talk about the relation between elemental energy and physicals. While it is true that various characters can do things like coat their weapons or fists with elements to make them stronger, coat their body with elements to move really fast or create elemental forcefields for defense, it's important to remember that any time this happens it is shown visually and there are many many many times where characters are clashing or keeping up with eachother without the use of their elements (see every fight with the Traveler) so the scaling would be effected accordingly.

I already mentioned in DMs that I think the stats should look smth like
Striking Strength: X physically, Y with elemental enhancment
Durability: X physically, Y with forcefields/shields
Where Y is their AP with elemental powers. This is of course unless the character has feats of their regular physicals being on par with the AP of their elements in which case they'd all be in the same Tier.

Spoiler: Abilities

Allogenes gaining their visions through their ambitions isn't grounds for supernatural willpower, since there's no specification on what those ambitions are or how hard they fight for them. Infact throughout various characters Vision Stories you see them gaining visions for relatively mundane acts such as Alhaitham reading a book or Lisa literally just thinking about getting a vision. Empowerment is fine tho


This is technically not wrong but basically no one would be able to use light manip since the Dainichi Mikoshi was created through knowledge granted by Istaroth (and obviously no one has used light powers in the game so far)


This is a recurring point throughout the page so let's get it out of the way. While it is true that the Genshin world is a leaf of the Imaginary Tree, Teyvat is sealed off from the rest of the Universe via the fake sky and more importantly has it's own laws. Unless similair statements are made about the nature of the Soul in Genshin we shouldn't be crosscaling these rules. So any correlation between the soul and memories/information/conciousness or vice versa should be removed


You... you know allogenes are humans right? They are physical beings, them interacting with eachother wouldn't be NPI


I don't understand the logic here. Elemental energy and souls flow through the Ley Lines but that doesn't mean there's any correlation between the two. Piss and shit both flow through sewage pipes but that doesn't mean they are the same thing or have the same properties (this is the best analogy I could think of)


The wording here is very misleading. Yae's exact quote is "To outsiders the realm of conciousness is a very abstract concept, luckily I am Ei's familiar, so I can sense her rough whereabouts". The use of "abstract concept" here isn't literal, Yae is just saying that the ream of conciousness is hard to grasp and sense for those who aren't familiar with it. Also the cutscene you linked shows no indication that the RoC exists outside of the universe, infact Yae even says that the Chaos surrounding the RoC could sweep the Traveler away to an unknown corner of space-time, implying that the Chaos and by extention the RoC also exist within space-time


This would be a Nahida exclusive ability since she specifically has the power to control Irminsul


The only character that this would apply to is Ei since her conciousness is completely removed from her physical body. For every other god their conciousness would diminiss and fade if their body is destroyed, this also applies to Archons since Makoto died from physical injuries.


"While, for the most part, it was divided into memory, wishes, soul, and persona, a spirit's qualities still carried complex distinctions... Among these, the state that came closest to the perfect freedom that divinities possessed was named "True Will"... The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point... Perhaps it was through this power that the ancients achieved transcendence from the physical realm." Nothing here says that True Will makes you unbound from souls, memories or elemental energy, geniuenly how did get to this conclusion.


This is a mischaracterization of what True Will is. True Will and the trancendence mentioned is merely the Rumerians discarding their physical bodies through Phobos and having their souls placed in the stone golems, thus making them immortal. It's important to note that even with this trancendence the Rumerians still couldn't escape their fate. So it should be pretty obvious that this doesn't actually qualify for BDE


True Will does not involve trancending the spirit of will or whatever. "The detachment of human will with such meticulous research as a jumping-off point..." It is the detachment of human will from the physical body, not the detachment from human will


Elemental lifeforms are corporeal lol


"Before time had a name, the first Spinjitsu Master created Ninjago" ahh statements

Being fr tho these are just legends and flowery talk ("Legend has it", "It is said that"), nothing concrete


The reality warping part is misleading since the witches can only alter the worlds that they create based on the scan (i.e Simulanka)


HOW IS THIS FATE MANIP BRO???? JUST CAUSE THEY SAY THE WORD KARMA????


This means nothing. I can also plant trees, do I get the ability to do photosynthesis?


The Ley Line Outcrops are formed from someone's desire for battle, they are a property of Ley Lines not an ability of the Traveler's

There is so much shit in here (and we only have a bit of time before grace hits so I neeeded to be quick), so I likely missed some stuff but for now these are the most glaring issues

I am with the proposals from GarrixianXD's evidences and arguments.

Gianny counters alot of a said evidences and arguments nicely here and below, no thoughts on that?

 

[GarrixianXD]

Gianny counters alot of a said evidences and arguments nicely here and below, no thoughts on that?

And I already addressed it all.

 

[BreezeHM]

The blog is well-organized and easy to read, but the terminology is next to impossible to understand if you're just reading the blog. If it doesn't exist already, I suggest you add a terminology page to the Verse page (that way you don't have to scroll back up to re-learn the concepts when they're applying to something later on).

Also noticed Honkai scans being used, I may have missed when they were accepted as cannon, but If they're accepted as cannon then I'm in agreement with the OP's proposals and counter arguments, excluding BDE.

 

[GarrixianXD]

The blog is well-organized and easy to read, but the terminology is next to impossible to understand if you're just reading the blog. If it doesn't exist already, I suggest you add a terminology page to the Verse page (that way you don't have to scroll back up to re-learn the concepts when they're applying to something later on).

This is honestly a very good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Also noticed Honkai scans being used, I may have missed when they were accepted as cannon, but If they're accepted as cannon then I'm in agreement with the OP's proposals and counter arguments, excluding BDE.

Genshin is stated to be connected to the Imaginary Tree here. I also have put this on the blog.

 

[Dereck03]

The blog is well-organized and easy to read, but the terminology is next to impossible to understand if you're just reading the blog. If it doesn't exist already, I suggest you add a terminology page to the Verse page (that way you don't have to scroll back up to re-learn the concepts when they're applying to something later on).

Also noticed Honkai scans being used, I may have missed when they were accepted as cannon, but If they're accepted as cannon then I'm in agreement with the OP's proposals and counter arguments, excluding BDE.

Same.

 

[Shey]

Raiden's hair was glowing when she planted the tree, therefore she was using her powers to do so.

Raiden's Hair and Eyes had been glowing long before the cutscene where she held the seed because she had been actively using her powers to battle the Shogun. It wasn't something she suddenly began doing to plant the seed.
To say that mean she was using her powers to plant the seed is disingenuous. We don't see power emanate from her when she plants it and the Seed already glows purple by itself separate from Ei

And I already addressed it all.

No, there's a lot of things you failed to address like Xiao's Karma having Fate Manipulation for whatever reason, Leyline Manipulation for properties of a Leyline, Supernatural Willpower for Vision Users, Elemental Being incorporeality that's never made a thing and more I can't be bothered to scroll up and down for to count

 

[GarrixianXD]

No, there's a lot of things you failed to address like Xiao's Karma having Fate Manipulation for whatever reason, Leyline Manipulation for properties of a Leyline, Supernatural Willpower for Vision Users, Elemental Being incorporeality that's never made a thing and more I can't be bothered to scroll up and down for to count

karma def - Google Search

The stuff I haven't addressed should be blatantly obvious and straightforward stuff. As for the incorporeality of elemental beings, it's explicitly mentioned that the Eye of the Storm is a certain corporeal form of anemo energy; energy itself is incorporeal, you can't have corporeal energy.

Anyways, grace time is up and this should be enough for me to post the page.

 

[Shey]

Possibly Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation (It was implied that the gods can seize their own destinies.[68] Causality is irreversibly attached to fate[69])

karma def - Google Search

The stuff I haven't addressed should be blatantly obvious and straightforward stuff. As for the incorporeality of elemental beings, it's explicitly mentioned that the Eye of the Storm is a certain corporeal form of anemo energy; energy itself is incorporeal, you can't have corporeal energy.

Anyways, grace time is up and this should be enough for me to post the page.

That's blatant Nominal fallacy, Xiao's Karma has never been implied to work in that manner and negative effects it brings are Corruption and Madness Manipulation absolutely 0 evidence for Fate Manipulation.

The stuff you didn't address is Defeated.
Elemental Beings manifest with Corporeal Forms, becoming Incorporeal quite literally means they're dead and become elemental energy once more, losing what they were before, that's quite literally in your blog

 

[Shey]

Unconventional Resistance to:

Ley Lines Manipulation (As a divine being who achieved True Will, archons are unbound by all of the concepts that shape up the Ley Line system, the Universe's premise. The ley lines systems contains elemental energy, souls and memories that makes-up reality's fundamental existence, laws and history[70][71])
Fate Manipulation and Causality Manipulation (Upon attaining an elemental authority over one of the seven elements and the throne of it, they'll no longer be bound by the system of fate.[72] Casuality is irreversibly attached by fate, hence, cause and effect is tied and unseparated with the system of fate[69])

Everything in this section is contradicted by the game itself, the Possibly is contradicted by the fact that the god king Remus despite succeeding with his True Will ambition fate still catches up with him and every single citizen of Remuria that achieved the True Will state along with him

And the links to the Unconventional resistance for Archons goes to Neuvillette's page who is explicitly not an Archon and beyond that level, he's no longer bound by the Ursurper's fate system while the Archon's still have their fates bound and being Archon's is in itself subjugation to the Ursurper

Also the Archons are affected by changes to the Leyline's information, Nahida and Shogun forget Scaramouche and Rukkhadevatta is forgotten by the entire Seven. Extremely fraudulent ability cramming there

But what does it matter, as long as the verse looks cool

 

[GarrixianXD]

I think I already explained enough times that the fate that they were bound upon wasn't natural fate, especially when Fortuna was the reason for their confinement. For that Neuvillette page, it was mentioned he was unbound by fate because of his elemental authority which all archons have.

As for the archons are affected by changes made to the Ley Lines excluding fate stuff, you can make another CRT to discuss it. This revision already has enough approvals to be applied. And I'm not fradulently cramming abilities; if you have a disagreement and you present appealing evidence towards it, then I'm willing to accept; ad hominem on the other hand, won't get you so far.