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Establishing rules for Varies ratings
- Thread starter Maverick_Zero_X
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If it is possible (given no one will object to my request), if DT would like to evaluate the thread, this is fine to be hold. But most (actually all) of the staff members are against his perspective.
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We may have to stick with the "likely/possibly l" for toon force characters if varies aren't going to be an option
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I’ve added the contents of Dread’s sandbox as an additional term on our Attack Potency page:
vsbattles.fandom.com
Attack Potency
Destructive Capacity is the term used to determine the amount of damage a character can produce. It is normally the deciding factor of VS matches along with Speed. It is measured in units of energy. An alternative term for Destructive Capacity which has more direct meaning: The Destructive...
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I disagree with not using inconsistencies, the reasoning is flawed and the way the Tiering page now presents it is incomplete.
Toon Force is a reason by itself, saying that inconsistencies don't count may only feel right if you only count inconsistencies that don't make it legit changes in the tier of characters, changes that are outliers. I believe many here draw from that logic to think that it makes sense, but don't actually acknowledge that now it leads to nonsense like a Toon Force user being most consistently at X tier with anti-feats against anything higher, thus having a profile only at X tier, yet having higher feats at Z tier that are not outliers yet are not a display of their consistent stats; just their genuine Toon Force. Heck Toon Force can lead to characters doing any other ability, yet to Stats Amp now? It's arbitrary. You can for example have Elasticity if you stretch your arm meters to grab something while never showing Elasticity again, yet now you gain nothing if you grab & toss a huge boulder as a gag in a way that's clearly canon yet clearly against one's regular stats, again it's arbitrary. Worst of all, it normalizes malpractice as some users will look at cases like that and tier the characters at Z tier (the higher one) to compensate, not giving a damn about consistency & anti-feats.
That at first, but it was also pointed out how this characters may not sustain this higher tiers for as long a battle of an undefined duration if their feats comes from Toon Force like that; Fair enough, don't necessarily use Varies in those cases, have it be "X tier, up to Z tier via Toon Force", specify the duration of such higher stats in-universe, and may our rules do the rest so that that isn't wanked. However, note that I said "in those cases", Toon Force can give higher stats for undefined durations depending on the feats, meaning that a Varies tier can be used for Toon Force, and when that happens, it's closed minded to dismiss the use of a Varies tier as an inconsistency because, as I said at first, that's falling back to 1 specific scenario in which that's true.
Toon Force is a reason by itself, saying that inconsistencies don't count may only feel right if you only count inconsistencies that don't make it legit changes in the tier of characters, changes that are outliers. I believe many here draw from that logic to think that it makes sense, but don't actually acknowledge that now it leads to nonsense like a Toon Force user being most consistently at X tier with anti-feats against anything higher, thus having a profile only at X tier, yet having higher feats at Z tier that are not outliers yet are not a display of their consistent stats; just their genuine Toon Force. Heck Toon Force can lead to characters doing any other ability, yet to Stats Amp now? It's arbitrary. You can for example have Elasticity if you stretch your arm meters to grab something while never showing Elasticity again, yet now you gain nothing if you grab & toss a huge boulder as a gag in a way that's clearly canon yet clearly against one's regular stats, again it's arbitrary. Worst of all, it normalizes malpractice as some users will look at cases like that and tier the characters at Z tier (the higher one) to compensate, not giving a damn about consistency & anti-feats.
That at first, but it was also pointed out how this characters may not sustain this higher tiers for as long a battle of an undefined duration if their feats comes from Toon Force like that; Fair enough, don't necessarily use Varies in those cases, have it be "X tier, up to Z tier via Toon Force", specify the duration of such higher stats in-universe, and may our rules do the rest so that that isn't wanked. However, note that I said "in those cases", Toon Force can give higher stats for undefined durations depending on the feats, meaning that a Varies tier can be used for Toon Force, and when that happens, it's closed minded to dismiss the use of a Varies tier as an inconsistency because, as I said at first, that's falling back to 1 specific scenario in which that's true.
Agnaa
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If they have genuine Toon Force, then it'd fall under them having a canon explanation. Toon Force here is just being removed for characters where that's not actually explained as making their statistics fluctuate.
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I don't believe the Tiering does as good of a job as it could explaining that then, I could likely have issues getting it right if I was new, more than 5 years younger, and reading it for the first time. It would lead to errors because of that.
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Toon Force is a common super power yes, but it doesn't automatically justify varies ratings. Sometimes, it only justifies high ends with low ends just being characters holding back or not needing to go all out. Perhaps there are characters who have in universe justifications via explanations for how their powers fluctuate, but not every toon force user has that.
The best example I can think of where a character has toon force explained in universe was Pinkie Pie, but it was just an explanation for how her magic works and didn't contribute to varies tier. She is still basically part of the power scaling chain as other members of the Mane Six.
The best example I can think of where a character has toon force explained in universe was Pinkie Pie, but it was just an explanation for how her magic works and didn't contribute to varies tier. She is still basically part of the power scaling chain as other members of the Mane Six.
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For characters who are just regularly inconsistent, stuff like At least X, likely Y, possibly Z works. Or just At least X and one or the other of those other two things. That works better than just taking "Varies between 10-C via getting bisected by a paper clip to 3-A via pulling a string that untangled the whole universe.
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But still it doesn't make sense, If I can see a character literally walking on the air before they even realize what's even happening or characters literally being reduced to a literal accordion after getting crushed, you don't necessarily need an overcomplicated explanation for why these happen.
Agnaa
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You don't, but you do need a reason to assume that their stats varying is due to toon force rather than inconsistency.
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This comes off very excusatory. I hope we are on the same page & when you say "inconsistent" you actually mean "the character canonically had this inconsistent, higher stats. They were not outliers", at which point is misleading to call it inconsistent. If not, "At least X, likely Y, possibly Z works" makes sense if they are using "at least", "likely" & "possibly" properly. If we are on the same page, "At least X, likely Y, possibly Z works" is nonsense as it means any character scales to all that sh*t at once rather than the consistent one stat only. Imagine that;
- A character is always Wall level, minus 3 times Toon Force made them be City level, only in those specific occasions tho ->
- Any character scaling at any point in time is "At least Wall level, likely City level"
"Varies between 10-C via getting bisected by a paper clip to 3-A via pulling a string that untangled the whole universe" isn't much better, I don't believe for a second that "getting bisected by a paper clip" comes in good faith. What the characters can do consistently w/o Toon Force making them do crazy feats isn't the same as "their lowest feats possible", but what they do consistently, with consistent anti-feats against anything higher. Making a huge effort to suspend my disbelief of where that comes from, yes, "Varies from 10-C to 3-A" could be correct if the character is genuinely 10-C most of the time while being able to genuinely be 3-A via Toon Force.
In short, you ridiculed something correct in bad faith, please don't do that.
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We can work from there. Are you implying anti-feats aren't enough? What if plots happen that require the characters to be weaker than what their best Toon Force feats show, are you implying those don't count?
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Yes, because those things occur for characters in all genres, I just don't want the standards changing for cartoons because you can imagine that Toon Force caused them.
When shounen characters have unexplained abilities, we index them. So when cartoon characters have unexplained abilities, we index them.
When shounen characters get hurt by bullets despite having tier 4 feats, we don't say that they vary from 9-C to 4-A, we say that the low-end was an outlier.
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Well, the more extremes are most likely PIS and Outliers, those are subcategories of what inconsistencies are. Simply taking the absolute low end and absolute high end and slapping a variable for every toon force user just sounds plain lazy and feels like "The easy way out" of just indexing every feat bit by bit and locating what feats may be outliers and what feats are just PIS or game mechanics and what not.
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That's ok, but you are falling to those inconsistencies I pointed out that don't mean anything, not the real deal. What about Toon Force being used to amp stats? Surely you recognize this is not always going to be stated, right? It follows that other clues point out what are or are not the consistent stats the characters have, and what are jokes not meant to mean much, if also not meaning that they never happened. Everything ok so far?
Agnaa
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I can't imagine a case where I'd earnestly believe that there's stat amp going on without it being explained, but I guess I can't rule it out. Maybe through some non-verbal indicators like them transforming, gaining auras, large muscles, etc.?
Just as long as it doesn't apply exclusively to cartoons, and could also apply to, say, an urban fantasy character with those same feats.
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Understandable concerns. However, let's not be extremists about it; The scenarios I hypothetically point out are when things are legit, not when lazy or wanked things are done. We need to work first what's the accurate way to do things, and from there lazy or wanked things will hopefully be avoided by writing what the standards used are.
Once more, no one is talking about adding an "absolute low end", so that's a bit of a strawman to make it look ridiculous. On that same line, an "absolute high end" (like 3-A) sounds ridiculous, but if it's deserved as a legit capacity of the character, it is legit.
For example:
- Timmy Turner pranks a bully stronger than him by throwing him a water balloon from behind & a few meters away. He fails due to bad aim like a regular human would around 5 times.
- Once he throws a water ballon into France from USA in seconds, calc'd at City Block level and superhuman speed.
- Then he succeeds at throwing one at the bully, then gets scared away by more bullies stronger than him.
The water balloon itself survived from USA to France yet got destroyed like normal in every other use, only that 1 France feat had Timmy with his Toon Force giving him those stats, before and after that he's an average kid and everyone else were average bullies. This is Toon Force amping his stats, no auras or large muscles, just the logic/context behind what happened.
If this was all we knew about Timmy he would be "10-C, up to 8-B via Toon Force" with the added context that the 8-B feat was a very fast & not lasting beyond that, the bullies only being "10-C".
This is what I'm talking about.
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Ultimately, while frequency of the feats do help, ultimately, narrative and context are king and they stand above everything else.
It's the same reason we don't downgrade all of fiction to 9-C, because that's frankly ridiculous and violates the narrative of such fictions that dabble in such extreme feats.
It's the same reason we don't downgrade all of fiction to 9-C, because that's frankly ridiculous and violates the narrative of such fictions that dabble in such extreme feats.
Agnaa
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I wouldn't just put that at 8-B via Toon Force, I would put that as Toon Force giving him a 1/7 chance of being amped to 8-B.
I'm more fine with that specific example because it's immediately next to lower feats, I suspect I wouldn't be fine with most other examples.
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Ok, so, how about this change?:
Users of [[Toon Force]] may have it so that ability increases their regular stats, which can happen in numerous occasions without necessarily showing stats that the characters would hold on a regular basis; While this can be a valid justification for a "Varies" rating (If many stats are used or if they're able to maintain the increased stat for long periods of time), it should also be considered to use an "up to" to depict their only or highest achieved stat. The feats of this increased stats should also be clarified, or otherwise how much they last, as it should not be assumed that the characters can always sustain having those stats indefinitely, therefore making them useless in a prolonged battle. Likewise, [[Powerscaling|scaling]] to this characters simply means scaling to their regular stats, not their increased ones (Unless those are literally happening at the time the scaling takes place)."
Varies
"These are characters, weapons, etcetera, whose power levels are subject to change, as well as profiles of races/species whose power levels vary depending on the member. “Varies” ratings should only be given to characters who have a canon explanation for why their statistics fluctuate. This does not include characters who are simply inconsistent or have unexplainable variations in their displayed power level. The fluctuations in power must have a clear and logical basis within the character's respective canon.Users of [[Toon Force]] may have it so that ability increases their regular stats, which can happen in numerous occasions without necessarily showing stats that the characters would hold on a regular basis; While this can be a valid justification for a "Varies" rating (If many stats are used or if they're able to maintain the increased stat for long periods of time), it should also be considered to use an "up to" to depict their only or highest achieved stat. The feats of this increased stats should also be clarified, or otherwise how much they last, as it should not be assumed that the characters can always sustain having those stats indefinitely, therefore making them useless in a prolonged battle. Likewise, [[Powerscaling|scaling]] to this characters simply means scaling to their regular stats, not their increased ones (Unless those are literally happening at the time the scaling takes place)."
As for examples, I would rather not touch that until we have some consistency on Toon Force users and cartoon pages, since at the time they're a mess and normalize a lot of wrong things.
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Personally, for Timmy Turner's case, since he's usually portrayed as literally "An average kid" as his theme song says, and is consistently one of the least physically fit kids in his class, I personally thing 10-C is far more consistent for him with the one 8-B feat perhaps being an outlier. He usually needs amps from Fairy magic in order to do Superhuman stuff too. He's not like other Toon Force users who have a lot of blatantly superhuman feats and/or are considered legit superheroes and he's literally just an average kid.
But anyway, I still don't think variable tiers are things we should just randomly slap on every single Toon Force user. Nor is every character who is extremely inconsistent having a variable from weakest character who defeated them to strongest character they defeated really something that sits well. There are Marvel/DC characters who get overpowered by Captain America/Batman level characters one moment and overpower Superman/Silver Surfer level characters the next. Which slapping variable unless they have Hulk's anger or Lantern Ring user's Empathy doesn't quite sit right as opposed to characters just pulling their own punches or writers being inconsistent. Outliers, PIS, and game mechanics are also all worth considering as opposed to just slapping variable tiers.
But anyway, I still don't think variable tiers are things we should just randomly slap on every single Toon Force user. Nor is every character who is extremely inconsistent having a variable from weakest character who defeated them to strongest character they defeated really something that sits well. There are Marvel/DC characters who get overpowered by Captain America/Batman level characters one moment and overpower Superman/Silver Surfer level characters the next. Which slapping variable unless they have Hulk's anger or Lantern Ring user's Empathy doesn't quite sit right as opposed to characters just pulling their own punches or writers being inconsistent. Outliers, PIS, and game mechanics are also all worth considering as opposed to just slapping variable tiers.
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His Toon Force making him do crazy feats is consistent, it's just often lower than 8-B & hard to see due to magic being the main thing of the show. At best it goes this high for his durability, for example.
I don't think you have been keeping up with my comments, I believe I got from where you're coming from & replied to it in my first one. So, it's not "every single Toon Force user", nor "randomly", and I once more don't think we mean the same when talking about something being "inconsistent". If it makes it easier to conceptualize, replace the term "Toon Force" with "Reality Warping"; Can users of it be inconsistent and not deserve a Varies? Yes. Can users of it use it to amp their stats in a way that they would deserve a Varies? Yes. Do we need to have it be explicitly stated in a verse every time that happens? No.
I need you to explain properly why it is that you disagree, not just that you feel that way, and preferably show an understanding of what I pointed out before as to not strawman the matter.
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I need to go to work, so I will explain later.
Agnaa
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IdiosyncraticLawyer
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Can this be applied now?
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You are content moderator; if you don't mind. Please unlock the page and apply the changes.
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Where on the page?
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Agnaa's suggestion here seems mostly fine to me.
@Maverick_Zero_X @DontTalkDT @LordTracer @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Emirp sumitpo @Armorchompy @ImmortalDread @Lonkitt
What do you think?
@Maverick_Zero_X @DontTalkDT @LordTracer @DarkDragonMedeus @LordGriffin1000 @Emirp sumitpo @Armorchompy @ImmortalDread @Lonkitt
What do you think?
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It seems fine in my opinion. Agnaa's note is simplified to say "Toon users" may have “varies” rating, but it is case-by-case.
OP's staff tally: (my draft without Agnaa's note)
- Agreements: @Agnaa, @DarkDragonMedeus, @Armorchompy @Maverick_Zero_X, @LordTracer, @LordGriffin1000, and @Emirp sumitpo
- Disagreements: @DontTalkDT
Unless I am mistaken, but this is simply a compromise that toon forces may get “varies” rating under the aforementioned circumstances and requirements:
- Agreements: @Eficiente, @Agnaa @Antvasima @Propellus (no evaulation rights)
- Disagreements: @DarkDragonMedeus
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