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Establishing combat skill requirements

DaReaperMan

Bronze Supporter
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I will preface this thread by saying two things:

  1. what I write here is not final, and can be argued with, disagreed with, etc.
  2. Before this can go live, at least a one example must be listed for all ratings.

Animalistic: With only the most basic and ferocious of fighting capability, a wild animal can catch even trained professionals off-guard. Perhaps the only variable combative rating, an animalistic being relies on what occurs in it's verse; a study of other characters that the being would face is a good way to judge how it would perform.

Below Average: Whether through slow reflexes, physical problems, or even a pacifistic mindset, an individual with this combat rating should lose to individuals who would not be considered combative forces of their own.

Average: Those with Average Combative intelligence have no discernable training or notability in either direction of being truly skilled or being skilless. This rating should be considered the general skill for humanoid characters with no personal combat experience.

Above Average: Through training or experience, characters listed here have a [[Martial Arts|martial prowess]] or weapon they have honed, and can use effectively in combat, however their ability to gain this prowess is no faster then an average person, and was only achieved through extensive training.

Gifted: Those whom are gifted in their skill can pick up entirely new fighting styles quicker then a normal person. Often being skilled in several weapons or martial arts, a Gifted character should be able to fight several comparable opponents at once or quickly switch fighting styles.

Genius: A true master of their craft, a combat genius can use their skills with terrifying efficiency against many comparable opponents, with the ability to process combat information instantly and using it to their advantage, with their mere presence being capable of turning the fields of battle into their favor.

Extraordinary Genius: Characters who can turn even the slightly possible situations or even impossible situations in their favor with their skills without going any developments or their opponent going any reduction. Able to masters all kind of martial arts, fighting styles, weapons in the world, somewhat surpass real world upper limit, can easily develop new fighting style on the fly to combat opponents, capable of predicting, analyzing opponents combat abilities and combat informations with extreme precision and accuracy akin to precognition, creating complex combat/fighting strategy in short amount of time under heavy pressure, etc...
(Both parts of this revised section are courtesy of Vietthai96 and RoggerReggor)
Extraordinary Genius: Prodigies capable of single-handedly crushing massive armies whom can damage them, or can dodge such things as rains of arrows. An Extraordinary Genius fighter can usually process an inhuman amount of combat information, instantly creating counter-measures against attacks they have seen beginning to strike

Supergenius: (I don't know how to properly write this.) A Supergenius master must be capable of processing infinite combat information, or at least be capable of fighting those whom do so. (I have no other quantifications for this--)

Discuss.
 
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I mean I am 110% open to modifications and suggestions, I'm the first to admit I ain't the guy to write these wiki explanation pages. I write Intelligence sections, I don't do the professional lingo that is needed for this stuff lol
 
Oh so this is just a thread where we list out examples that follow a clear cut definition? ool

As for the rain of arrows, would deflecting them count for the same rating as dodging them?
 
Oh so this is just a thread where we list out examples that follow a clear cut definition? ool

As for the rain of arrows, would deflecting them count for the same rating as dodging them?
Yes. Same would be for rain drops, etc. You can deflect an arrow with a sword IRL, it's just really ******* hard, but a rain of arrows without speed? Basically impossible.
 
I will preface this thread by saying two things:

  1. what I write here is not final, and can be argued with, disagreed with, etc.
  2. Before this can go live, at least a one example must be listed for all ratings.

Animalistic: With only the most basic and ferocious of fighting capability, a wild animal can catch even trained professionals off-guard. Perhaps the only variable combative rating, an animalistic being relies on what occurs in it's verse; a study of other characters that the being would face is a good way to judge how it would perform.

Below Average: Whether through slow reflexes, physical problems, or even a pacifistic mindset, an individual with this combat rating should lose to individuals who would not be considered combative forces of their own.

Average: Those with Average Combative intelligence have no discernable training or notability in either direction of being truly skilled or being skilless. This rating should be considered the general skill for humanoid characters with no personal combat experience.

Above Average: Through training or experience, characters listed here have a [[Martial Arts|martial prowess]] or weapon they have honed, and can use effectively in combat, however their ability to gain this prowess is no faster then an average person, and was only achieved through extensive training.

Gifted: Those whom are gifted in their skill can pick up entirely new fighting styles quicker then a normal person. Often being skilled in several weapons or martial arts, a Gifted character should be able to fight several comparable opponents at once or quickly switch fighting styles.

Genius: A true master of their craft, a combat genius can use their skills with terrifying efficiency against many comparable opponents, with the ability to process combat information instantly and using it to their advantage, with their mere presence being capable of turning the fields of battle into their favor.

Extraordinary Genius: Prodigies capable of single-handedly crushing massive armies whom can damage them, or can dodge such things as rains of arrows. An Extraordinary Genius fighter can usually process an inhuman amount of combat information, instantly creating counter-measures against attacks they have seen beginning to strike.

Supergenius: (I don't know how to properly write this.) A Supergenius master must be capable of processing infinite combat information, or at least be capable of fighting those whom do so. (I have no other quantifications for this--)

Discuss.
Feel like all of this should be a lot more strict considering the fictional nature of the verses we deal with since going by your Extraordinary Genius rating Kat who is currently gifted would qualify for this rating going by your standards. Being the one who completely overhauled everything with Gravity Rush and looking at Kat deeper specifically I know damn well she isn't some extra-ordinary genius level combatant, she'd get skillstomped by Solid Snake lol and Snake is currently only genius so most genius level fighters would then really be bumped up to higher EG if not Supergenius if we consider how they would upscale where they are currently at.

Something like this below is what I consider outright to only be enough for gifted and this would be extraordinary genius going by the above.
"Fought alongside Fi, a martial artist who is a descendent from a long line of Lhao warriors with the two of them together defeating 100 armed Ex-Military Soldiers equipped with heavy weaponry and mechs with Fi himself taking in entire platoons in his own, defeated 100 elite martial artist at once in a one versus one hundred battle without her abilities and while holding back her skills, and bested Fi in single combat on two separate occasions while powerless."
 
Feel like all of this should be a lot more strict considering the fictional nature of the verses we deal with since going by your Extraordinary Genius rating Kat who is currently gifted would qualify for this rating going by your standards. Being the one who completely overhauled everything with Gravity Rush and looking at Kat deeper specifically I know damn well she isn't some extra-ordinary genius level combatant, she'd get skillstomped by Solid Snake lol and Snake is currently only genius so most genius level fighters would then really be bumped up to higher EG if not Supergenius if we consider how they would upscale where they are currently at.

Something like this below is what I consider outright to only be enough for gifted and this would be extraordinary genius going by the above.
"Fought alongside Fi, a martial artist who is a descendent from a long line of Lhao warriors with the two of them together defeating 100 armed Ex-Military Soldiers equipped with heavy weaponry and mechs with Fi himself taking in entire platoons in his own, defeated 100 elite martial artist at once in a one versus one hundred battle without her abilities and while holding back her skills, and bested Fi in single combat on two separate occasions while powerless."
Solid Snake would almost definitely be EG himself, it depends entirely on the feats of the verse. I can already tell you that Kat would be a baseline EG skill character, 100 individuals is bordering between a company of forces and an army, depending on whom you ask.

I should also note, any and all current ratings under specifically skill will have to be at least looked at when this is over, so any complaints about future ratings being above another character should be tossed in the sodding dumpster.

And I will be VERY surprised if the current EG section stands here.
 
Before trying to put a standard for supergenius skill, do we at least have a exemple for that?

"capable of processing infinite combat information", is there any character that does that with NOTHING but skill? The only guy that I can think with similar thing is Zero (and probably some other precog users out there), who can see and process infinite amount of information on his brain and take the best outcome out of the infinite possibilities, but he is def not some supergenius in skill
 
Before trying to put a standard for supergenius skill, do we at least have a exemple for that?

"capable of processing infinite combat information", is there any character that does that with NOTHING but skill? The only guy that I can think with such thing is Zero (and probably some other precog users out there), who can see and process infinite amount of information on his brain, but he is def not some supergenius in skill

...yeah. That is what I went by from when I argued with Ant about Settra being Supergenius skill on his wall. In fact, infinite combat information is basically what he said would be the requirement for such a level of combat skill.

Khorne here is the abstraction of several things and gains all of that information and knowledge, including War(And through war, combat.) Across a 1-A cosmology. Skarbrand can land a hit on Khorne, so he's "likely" Supergenius in combat skill(Not on his profile, check Settra's profile or Grimgor Ironhide's profile for the justification)
 
The arrow feat should be reworded entirely.
Speed can make it easy, one's abilities could mitigate it entirely, even if they do without much hax or offset, even a simple unhuman advantage can offset it by some degree.

You'd be better off just wording it like they can react and make [big number] of calculations and predictions on the fly mid-combat, which is basically what I think you're getting at anyway.
 
Extraordinary Genius: Prodigies capable of single-handedly crushing massive armies whom can damage them,
Hell no. They are able to hurt him but they are not comparable to him. Moreover, with more DC and a long range, it is fixed.
or can dodge such things as rains of arrows.
Come on. Speed.
An Extraordinary Genius fighter can usually process an inhuman amount of combat information,
This is not enough.
instantly creating counter-measures against attacks they have seen beginning to strike.
A Gifted or at best Genius character does this.
 
I think you should also mention one of the previous justification require to qualify for eg combat skill that being learning a combat technique that requires a considerable amount of time like hundreds to thousands of years in a considerable short time like in a day or minutes
 
Hell no. They are able to hurt him but they are not comparable to him. Moreover, with more DC and a long range, it is fixed.
Those would be direct disqualifiers, actually.
Come on. Speed.
it happens with skill in some verses too... like Warhammer Fantasy--
This is not enough.
As with what Chariot said, it'd be revised anyway.
Can we really call this shit skill at all
if you asked me, Supergenius is a favorful description of "Hey heres a guy who can fight GOD", I have to put it there because that is what Ant said qualified for Supergenius Combat, but I'm iffy on it's viability.
A Gifted or at best Genius character does this.
I pulled it out of my Arse cause I wanted another qualifier, so if it'd be in Genius or Gifted, that'd be fine.
What would we consider creating a martial arts style that is considered the ultimate martial art bar none within a modern world that also contains supernatural fighting skills? Qin Shi Huang did all that while fighting a non-stop six day long battle against Chiyou, a Demon God of War who not only eclipsed him in size several times over but also could grow multiple new arms to fight with.
Genius or Gifted, especially if it was done off-screen.
The arrow feat should be reworded entirely.
Speed can make it easy, one's abilities could mitigate it entirely, even if they do without much hax or offset, even a simple unhuman advantage can offset it by some degree.

You'd be better off just wording it like they can react and make [big number] of calculations and predictions on the fly mid-combat, which is basically what I think you're getting at anyway.
Yeah I am, EG is by far the rating I'm least confident on my description of, so I wouldn't mind a full rewrite.
 
Those would be direct disqualifiers, actually.

it happens with skill in some verses too... like Warhammer Fantasy--

As with what Chariot said, it'd be revised anyway.

if you asked me, Supergenius is a favorful description of "Hey heres a guy who can fight GOD", I have to put it there because that is what Ant said qualified for Supergenius Combat, but I'm iffy on it's viability.

I pulled it out of my Arse cause I wanted another qualifier, so if it'd be in Genius or Gifted, that'd be fine.

Genius or Gifted, especially if it was done off-screen.

Yeah I am, EG is by far the rating I'm least confident on my description of, so I wouldn't mind a full rewrite.
It was kind of off and on again with being seen.
 
Good work on this one, but some things I disagree with.

Secondly, you should take some staff permission to make this a staff discussion as it influences pages on the wiki and would need a few or more staff approvals.
Prodigies capable of single-handedly crushing massive armies whom can damage them, or can dodge such things as rains of arrows.
I mean this is not a bad reason, but I think this will make everything which includes characters who can still inflict damage proof-worthy. This will, at the end just go to the imagination of the author. Some authors can make Tier 8 characters being able to damage Tier 6 characters canonically, while every scaler probably knows that there's a 100s to 1000s times difference between them and thus it is not possible (it's much like the difference between a kid rabbit and an adult human). So, I think this should be ditched.

Dodging a rain of arrows is something which would make this tier unobtainable for most characters who have lower speed than subsonic and only making aim-dodging as the only possible solution for them, so I think it would also be selective.

(I don't know how to properly write this.) A Supergenius master must be capable of processing infinite combat information, or at least be capable of fighting those whom do so. (I have no other quantifications for this--)
Completely disagreed. This will make it no longer only combat intelligence, the user will need to have an infinite processing speed (which has been by default accepted as a standard for Supergenius by the wiki FOR GENERAL INTELLIGENCE and many of the NGNL characters were upgraded just based on that) for this selective rule.

I think instead of us selectively suggesting feats (like defeating a massive army or dodging a rain of arrows), there should be criterion for character's battle strategizing, learning ability, possibility prediction, adaptability and experience.

The rest is fine imo and seems plausible, unless others were to make subjectively better opinions.
 
Good work on this one, but some things I disagree with.

Secondly, you should take some staff permission to make this a staff discussion as it influences pages on the wiki and would need a few or more staff approvals.

I mean this is not a bad reason, but I think this will make everything which includes characters who can still inflict damage proof-worthy. This will, at the end just go to the imagination of the author. Some authors can make Tier 8 characters being able to damage Tier 6 characters canonically, while every scaler probably knows that there's a 100s to 1000s times difference between them and thus it is not possible (it's much like the difference between a kid rabbit and an adult human). So, I think this should be ditched.
In that case, damage should be shown or stated to have been inflicted(or was able to be inflicted). If you just statstomp the army through either Durability or Speed, it's not really a skill feat anyways.
Dodging a rain of arrows is something which would make this tier unobtainable for most characters who have lower speed than subsonic and only making aim-dodging as the only possible solution for them, so I think it would also be selective.
It's simply an example, not a qualifier you apsolutely have to meet, some people can't do that, but would still be EG.
Completely disagreed. This will make it no longer only combat intelligence, the user will need to have an infinite processing speed (which has been by default accepted as a standard for Supergenius by the wiki FOR GENERAL INTELLIGENCE and many of the NGNL characters were upgraded just based on that) for this selective rule.

I think instead of us selectively suggesting feats (like defeating a massive army or dodging a rain of arrows), there should be criterion for character's battle strategizing, learning ability, possibility prediction, adaptability and experience.

The rest is fine imo and seems plausible, unless others were to make subjectively better opinions.
I noted that I'm not 100% on Supergenius even being a combat rating above, so yeah.
 
I agree with Dalesean and Chariot with some things needing either reword or in need to increase the requeriments, especially Genius and above. For example, a few requirements to achieve Genius, you'll need a character that has either mastered every martial arts in their verse or defeat someone close to that level of prowess. Anything above Genius will require some level of supernatural bullshit in order to achieve it, like the most random grunt in Warhammer defeating the concept of war or whatever.

On the side note, I'm planning on a big upgrade for my fav character and some input for his skill level would be appreciated here:
Genius in combat: (Moon Knight has displayed a great and varied amount of skillful feats, being a master of virtually every martial arts in the world, he has extreme knowledge of pressure points, often using as a non-lethal approach to either knock enemies down or put them to sleep, even capable of using his weapons to hit nerve clusters, such skill that both Shang-Chi and Punisher complimented. He also posssess in weaponry and marksmanship; mastering every weapon devised by man to the point that he doesn't even need to hit his opponents to land his strikes, capable of ricocheting his baton on walls to hit his opponents, able to disarm armed opponents and while making it come back to his hand, and even able to disarm two gunmen by splitting an arrow in two to shoot them at the same time.

During his early days, when first starting his career, Moon Knight was able to briefly stand against a weaken Daredevil, before ultimately teaming-up. He'd continue to increase his resume by defeating Nick Fury, outsmarting and defeating Black Knight, fighting the Punisher, effortless defeating Andrea's Swordmaster two times, and finally standing against Bullseye, who he'd use to fake his own death and start his career anew. His modern approach only increasing feats by effortless defeating Deadpool after learning of his regeneration, being able to briefly stand against the Beast, a demon that stood against Shang-Chi and Iron Fist at the same time, and eventually defeating Iron Fist himself when empowered)
 
I agree with Dalesean and Chariot with some things needing either reword or in need to increase the requeriments, especialll Genius and above. For example, a few requirements to achieve Genius, you'll need a character that has either mastered every martial arts in their verse or defeat someone close to that level of prowess. Anything above Genius will require some level of supernatural bullshit in order to achieve it, like the most random grunt in Warhammer defeating the concept of war or whatever.
That would be a good qualifier, yes. As for EG needing supernatural stuff... I can already tell you like, every MG main character would have EG skill. That ain't a Superhuman verse.
On the side note, I'm planning on a big upgrade for my fav character and some input for his skill level would be appreciated here:
Save it for the other thread.
 

This is the call to say that Genius needs the addition of mastering hundreds of fighting styles and Extraordinary Genius needs a rework based on what has been said above. As my current justification abilities aren't to par, please provide rewritten examples.​

 
That would be a good qualifier, yes. As for EG needing supernatural stuff... I can already tell you like, every MG main character would have EG skill. That ain't a Superhuman verse.
I didn't really meant to be actually supernatural, I meant some huge level of BS skill level or something like that. I didn't made it easy to understand due to my warhammer example but that's what I really meant.

Save it for the other thread.
My bad.
 
it happens with skill in some verses too... like Warhammer Fantasy--
To be able to dodge even if a character knows all the directions of the arrows he still needs speed. So that doesn't qualify.

Here is what I recently gave in a thread as a proposal on intelligence based on calculations:

Genius: Character with a computing capacity comparable to a high-performance computer. Characters capable of outwitting the latter's strategies in a fight and managing to stand up to them while being comparable or inferior to them also obtain this level of intelligence.

Extraordinary Genius: Character with a computing capacity comparable to a latest-generation supercomputer. The rest is the same.

Supergenius: Character with a computing capacity beyond that of a quantum computer. And everything else.
 
I think:

E.G combat should be: able to masters all kind of martial arts, fighting styles, weapons in the world, somewhat surpass real world upper limit, can easily develop new fighting style on the fly to combat opponents, capable of predicting, analyzing opponents combat abilities and combat informations with extreme precision and accuracy akin to precognition, creating complex combat/fighting strategy in short amount of time under heavy pressure, etc...


Supergenius combat: Having combat, fighting skill which at the level considered to be impossible in real life, scifi level of skills, having skills to affect reality such as affect space-time, dimension, causality, fate, concepts etc...... (shit supergenius is hard, soind too specific for my taste)
 
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