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Erza vs Hiei

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Just saying, Hellfire is simply stronger Fire Manipulation unless there are special mechanics at play similar to Digimon and Overlord Hellfire. Otherwise, just stronger (much stronger at that) that can still be tanked by fire resistance if and only if the characters have the right feats. Whether Erza's Flame Empress armor can resist it is up to you all to decide. Due to how FT is handled and treated on this site (by both sides honestly. I'll keep my rant to myself), I am keeping away from it henceforth.
 
Schnee One said:
You edited that tho
Click to expand...
"Just saying, Hellfire is simply stronger Fire Manipulation unless there are special mechanics at play similar to Digimon and Overlord Hellfire. Otherwise, just stronger (much stronger at that) that can still be tanked by fire resistance if and only if the characters have the right feats."

This was pre edit and it implies that only if the fire resistance is high enough that the character can resist it. This also implies that if the fire is superior to the resistance then said resistance is meaning less (I mean, that's common sense for anyone here....theoretically)
 
RotofBots said:
That's... not what spiritual fortitude is in this context.

In YYH, Spiritual fortitude is merely being able to resist attacks that affect your spirit/soul.

It doesn't refer to tenacity/determination.
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Except we literally see it only work on fodder and him use it in the 1st arc he appears in.

Moreover he doesn't create illusions in his DT matches, you can clearly see his clothes are damaged from the attack. It's more like he pulled a psuedo substitution based on speed than an illusion.

Finally Erza has the AP and Versatility advantage along with not being a stranger to people with far more experience than her and being a skilled swordsman herself, and a multitude of other weapons. Alongside Hiei's experience not helping much before hand against Yusuke.
 
Only used on fodder =/= can only be used on fodder. Burden of proof is on you dude. We always assume that mindhax can work on those without resistance unless it is a stated weakness (which is not the case here). If you believe that is the case, scans stating such would be appreciated.

Furthermore, directly after he uses the "illusions", he then states "you're dreaming" which alludes to what he did being an illusion more than just being an afterimage.

And bringing up Hiei's fight with Yusuke to discredit the relevance of his combat experience/skill is devoid of context.

What really happened was:

1) Hiei was stalling for the conjuring blade to take effect on Keiko in order to torment Yusuke

2) Yusuke got lucky as the only he won was because the reigan reflected and accidentally hit Hiei.
 
Not really considering I'm saying it won't work on Erza because it only works on Fodder. You're asking me to prove a negative, alongside Erza having resistance to Mind manip anyway via her fake eye.

Hiei saying "you're dreaming" isn't an indication of using illusions at all. It's a common phrase and trope to say that against someone far inferior to you.

Except he doesn't overpower him on experience....but AP. Yusuke tags him twice before he turns into his Jaganshi form.
 
I'm still not seeing the logic that it only works on fodder at all. Mind hax has nothing to do with AP. We've always treated them separate. And Erza's fake eye wouldn't save her from the mind manipulation anyways as it would only save her from illusions.

Tagging someone isn't even an anti-feat of experience and especially not in this case:

1) Hiei was toying around with Yusuke. Additionally, Hiei was neither attacking nor fighting Yusuke and literally states wanted to play tag with him.

2) Tagging him just means he's faster... nothing more .
 
TjDragonEmperor23 said:
It's just fire, fire resis armor should take care of it.
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The Jao Ensatsu Ryuukaha is just fire! LMAO!! Even if fire resis armor would work it's going to be Hiei vs Bui all over again!!!! And he also can use Jao Ensatsu Ryuuka-ken, are Erza's swords durable enough for that?
 
Hagane no Saiyajin said:
TjDragonEmperor23 said:
It's just fire, fire resis armor should take care of it.
Click to expand...
The Jao Ensatsu Ryuukaha is just fire! LMAO!! Even if fire resis armor would work it's going to be Hiei vs Bui all over again!!!! And he also can use Jao Ensatsu Ryuuka-ken, are Erza's swords durable enough for that?
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This is the reason why i don't like you Hagane
 
Excuse on that note, nothing personal. Anyway here is what I found on the Dragon of the Darkness Flame.

"In principle, defending against or deflecting this attack is impossible. In reality however, it is possible, even for opponents who are at Hiei's power level, to deflect the attack. During the Dark Tournament, Bui managed to redirect the attack back to Hiei by using his battle aura to withstand the technique's effects. As he had a similar level of power to Hiei's own, it was extremely difficult for him to accomplish this."

With this in mind I think Erza's armor can maybe withstand the flame's effects but it won't negate them or the flame itself. It's a question of whether Erza can deflect the flame? Although there are other things going for Hiei.
 
A few things I want to correct, Natsu fully scales to the 33 kilotons since Zancrow hit him with a roar unblocked and Natsu just picked himself up immediately once he hit the floor. Erza's base is superior to Natsu and Flame Empress Armor's stated effect it to half the AP of flames in general, not specifically Natsu's. All the swords share her AP meaning they wont be getting vaped when she has the advantage.

Her fake eye lets her resist eye based techniques but it seems like he won't even use his so this doesn't really matter.

Skill wise, she is able to wield weapons in all four limbs simultaneously, defeat dozens of mages and monsters with various magics, swap through numerous weapons and wield them all with equal skill, and once she ditched her armor, outskill Ikaruga who was skill stomping Erza who could do everything prior to this point.

Voting Erza unless new info for Hiei is brought up.
 
Erza is not even 1.5x stronger than base Hiei. Furthermore, Hiei can oneshot people who scale to the who scale the 24.7 kiloton feat with his Jao Ensatsu and this was before the power of it was stated to have doubled by the end of the arc. Not only this but he can absorb its power to boost his regular stats to this level. So saying that Erza wins via AP is invalid.

As for the Flame empress armor, it won't help much. Kuro had assimilated a resistance to Hiei's fire in his Machi armour form and had further heightened this resistance with his Maken armor yet he couldn't resist his hellfire. Does Erza's armour even have feats of resisting fire with temperatures upwards of 3000C farther less even hotter hellfire?

As said before, Skill is equal at worst between them. Not only can Hiei fight beings with thousands of years of combat experience and training and he has been training in the Bushido style since he was young. Has more combat experience than Erza herself and can take out people who resist all of his abilities. Hiei overall is a more dirty and ruthless fighter.

Hiei's jagan not only gives him enhanced senses and Clairvoyance, but it also gives him the ability to read his opponents thoughts. It can even be argued he could do such without his Javan since he has a feat of reading Kurama's mind while his Jagan was concealed. His Clairvoyance would also let's him get info on Erza.
 
Erza is not even 1.5x stronger than base Hiei. Furthermore, Hiei can oneshot people who scale to the who scale the 24.7 kiloton feat with his Jao Ensatsu and this was before the power of it was stated to have doubled by the end of the arc. Not only this but he can absorb its power to boost his regular stats to this level. So saying that Erza wins via AP is invalid.

Except that's for base Erza. Hiei isn't the only one who can boost his AP, she has several armors to buff her AP or Dura. Hiei specifically needs to use the Dragon or in a sword form, this Hiei can't absorb the Dragon.

As for the Flame empress armor, it won't help much. Kuro had assimilated a resistance to Hiei's fire in his Machi armour form and had further heightened this resistance with his Maken armor yet he couldn't resist his hellfire. Does Erza's armour even have feats of resisting fire with temperatures upwards of 3000C farther less even hotter hellfire?

Question. Where did you pull the Value of 3000C from? Because I've looked for calcs or anything and I don't get anything. And nothing is said to note in the manga. Not only that, Kuro's Resistance doesn't work that way. His resistances from previous forms don't increase. He merely keeps them and gains new ones. Not only that, he didn't gain any resistance from his last form because Hiei didn't do anything to him. All we know is that Dark Dragon Flames > Mortal Flames. And that's not much to go on.


Hiei's jagan not only gives him enhanced senses and Clairvoyance, but it also gives him the ability to read his opponents thoughts. It can even be argued he could do such without his Javan since he has a feat of reading Kurama's mind while his Jagan was concealed. His Clairvoyance would also let's him get info on Erza.

Gonna needs some feats for that. Because Telepathy =/= Clairvoyance. And that's exactly what he did with Kurama.

As said before, Skill is equal at worst between them. Not only can Hiei fight beings with thousands of years of combat experience and training and he has been training in the Bushido style since he was young. Has more combat experience than Erza herself and can take out people who resist all of his abilities. Hiei overall is a more dirty and ruthless fighter.

>He can take out people who resist all his abilities

Anyone can do that via AP, your point?

>Not only can Hiei fight beings with thousands of years of combat experience and training and he has been training in the Bushido style since he was young.

And Erza has been practicing Sword Fighting since she was Young, along with other Weapons. And again, he had trouble with Yusuke, a fresh off the being dead spirit detective. And no he wasn't "Playing", he himself even says he was forced into his Jaganshi state.

Hiei can be a ruthless fighter, but Erza overall still maintains a advantage in Versatility and AP.
 
Gonna address Hiei's skill first

Usining that Yusuke is still not that valid. Stated be have been "strolling when fighting him and even states he wanted to play tag. He was only caught off guard when Yusuke got a friendship power boost that increased his speed and AP to be greater than that of base Hiei. And if you reread the fight you would notice that base Hiei never even attempted to attack Yusuke even when he was blitzing him. If that wasn't "toying", I'm not sure what is.

Also, Yusuke even at the beginning of the manga is more skilled than you give him credit for. We see not even a week after his fight with Hiei, Yusuke was able to combat some of the world's best martial artists who have trained in many forms of martial arts. And he was able to beat Getsuno when he couldn't even see him.

I got 3000C from his profile. My point still stands, however. Kuro wasn't able to resist the darkness flames and was easily disposed by the sword of darkness flames while his mortal fire had litlle to no effect on him.

Never said that telepathy = Clairvoyance. All I said that he could use both to his advantage. Please do not misconstrue my words.

And while Erza does have the versatility advantage, it's not going to matter much in this fight. In this key, Erza's versatility isn't anything lethal that can't be dealt with.
 
Never said that telepathy = Clairvoyance. All I said that he could use both to his advantage. Please do not misconstrue my words.

Neither did I, I said that it was Telepathy, not Clairvoyance. Could you provide the scan of him reading someone's mind and using it in combat Pre Dark Tournament? Because I don't remember him reading anyone's mind up to the DT.

Usining that Yusuke is still not that valid. Stated be have been "strolling when fighting him and even states he wanted to play tag. He was only caught off guard when Yusuke got a friendship power boost that increased his speed and AP to be greater than that of base Hiei. And if you reread the fight you would notice that base Hiei never even attempted to attack Yusuke even when he was blitzing him. If that wasn't "toying", I'm not sure what is.

https://www.***********.net/yu-yu-hakusho/23

https://www.***********.net/yu-yu-hakusho/24

For one This is the entire fight not just certain pages. Hiei is visibly pissed that Yusuke is capable of stepping to him and doing it casually, despite his experience.

Also, Yusuke even at the beginning of the manga is more skilled than you give him credit for. We see not even a week after his fight with Hiei, Yusuke was able to combat some of the world's best martial artists who have trained in many forms of martial arts. And he was able to beat Getsuno when he couldn't even see him.

So why is it alright that Yuskue, who's newblood is capable of fighting people far above him in Years, but Erza, who's already a notable experienced fighter since she was a child is instead disregarded? This shows more that Hiei struggles with people on his level in terms of AP. Yusuke has no experience compared to him yet was able to make Hiei use his full strength.

I got 3000C from his profile. My point still stands, however. Kuro wasn't able to resist the darkness flames and was easily disposed by the sword of darkness flames while his mortal fire had litlle to no effect on him.

Ah from Bui's Axe. Something that Natsu similarly did early on, melting steel with his body heat. That said,there's still nothing notable on Dragon of Darkness Flame other than it's hotter than Hiei's Normal Flames. They're certainly not Dura Negating.

And while Erza does have the versatility advantage, it's not going to matter much in this fight. In this key, Erza's versatility isn't anything lethal that can't be dealt with.

I could literally say the same thing about most of Hiei's points. His one note AP boost doesn't do much when Erza can do the same but consistently and with her Dura as well and increase her speed and range. Erza has a resistance to Mind Manipulation he doesn't touch past the 1st arc, and her Flame Empress Armor helps against his flames so he's nowhere near suddenly one shotting her. She has more than enough Skill and Experience to keep up with multiple styles and weapons and both of them are in a SoM with the intent to kill.
 
Anyways to end this back and forth I'll bring up both my points and my qualms in one post.

Please show feats of Erza oneshotting other 7-Cs with said AP boost because at this point Hiei's boost is superior via feats. And range is a non-factor since they have the same range.

Furthermore, Erza can only use one armor at a time. If she uses the Flame Empress, she cannot use another armor to boost her AP/dura at the same time.

Speaking of the Flame Empress armor, it's not that helpful. Firstly, Erza attacks with fire while using her flame empress armor. This isn't going to help much as Hiei himself resists fire. Furthermore, the Flame Empress armor should be equal to the Kuro's armors which also resist fire. And guess what? Hiei was able to bypass this resistance with his Jao Ensatsu. If believe that Erza's fire resistance is superior to Kuro's, feats and scans would be appreciated. If anything Kuro's should be considered to be better because no-selling fire attacks is far better than halfing their AP but ok And finally, the Flame Empress armor only halves the AP of fire. So even if you think that she resists Hiei's Jao Ensatsu (which she doesn't), it'll only be halved. Half of a oneshot is still pretty strong.

You say she has resistance but it's not even on her profile :^) If you think she resists, make a CRT. And even if she has resisted it, what are her feats of resistance? There are levels y'know.

As for Hiei, his ruthlessness gives him the edge in combat. Has a pseudo-substitute ability that allows him to feign enemy attacks. Shown even more here so saying he is doing it via speed is incorrect. If Erza decides to play the range game, Hiei's own range should be enough and the enhanced senses granted by the Jagan is able to see everything that she would do and would be able to counter accordingly. His Jagan abilities such as Clairvoyance, Mind Manip, telepathy and memory manipulation definitely give him an edge. Higher combat experience and I'll just assume they have equal skill. And because she's a human, Hiei would be far more willing to go all out from the get go.

Also, while I won't argue for it yet, there is enough evidence that demons are invisible to people. I have sufficient evidence but I'll make a CRT before I bring it up.
 
And can the Flame Empress Armor resist Hiei's sword of the Darkness Flame, because it's going to be hard to half the AP of a Melee armor being swung at you.
 
Please show feats of Erza oneshotting other 7-Cs with said AP boost because at this point Hiei's boost is superior via feats. And range is a non-factor since they have the same range.

Ikaruga, Azuma who's stronger than Zancrow who did the 33 feat, Natsu who she scales from. Natsu she one shotted without the AP boosts.

Furthermore, Erza can only use one armor at a time. If she uses the Flame Empress, she cannot use another armor to boost her AP/dura at the same time.

Which is a non-factor considering her she can switch between armors instantly.

You say she has resistance but it's not even on her profile :^) If you think she resists, make a CRT. And even if she has resisted it, what are her feats of resistance? There are levels y'know.

Code: 
Resistance to magical eye techniques via her artificial eye *Cough* and b4 the "Jagan is Youki".
Speaking of the Flame Empress armor, it's not that helpful. Firstly, Erza attacks with fire while using her flame empress armor. This isn't going to help much as Hiei himself resists fire. Furthermore, the Flame Empress armor should be equal to the Kuro's armors which also resist fire. And guess what? Hiei was able to bypass this resistance with his Jao Ensatsu. If believe that Erza's fire resistance is superior to Kuro's, feats and scans would be appreciated. And finally, the Flame Empress armor only halves the AP of fire. So even if you think that she resists Hiei's Jao Ensatsu (which she doesn't), it'll only be halved. Half of a oneshot is still pretty strong.

A. Hiei's resistance to cold is anime only. And Bypass? More like he simply had higher AP. And are you forgetting she can fight Natsu who also has a resistance with that Armor?

B. This is assumimg he'll have the AP to one shot. Which like I said is a baseless one.

As for Hiei, his ruthlessness gives him the edge in combat. Has a pseudo-substitute ability that allows him to feign enemy attacks. If Erza decides to play the range game, Hiei's own range should be enough and the enhanced senses granted by the Jagan is able to see everything that she would do and would be able to counter accordingly. His Jagan abilities such as Clairvoyance, Mind Manip, telepathy and memory manipulation definitely give him an edge. Higher combat experience and I'll just assume they have equal skill. And because she's a human, Hiei would be far more willing to go all out from the get go.

1st, you literally just tried to call this an illusion not too many post ago until I pointed out he was simply faster. And not only is speed equal, Erza actually does have a speed enhancement in Flight Armor. Hiei range is overall terrible. The Dragon of The Darkness Flame is a One Use Move for this Hiei, and if it misses or doesn't take her out period he's screwed. Unlike Erza who can spam swords at long range with no such risk. And yet again you mention Clairvoyance and for the 3rd time, show no evidence of it or even being used in battle. In fact you haven't shown evidence of over half the things your listing to be usable in battle or that he would use it in character :^) and we've already established he wouldn't use most of what you're listing considering all it takes is looking at his DT fights. Oh and higher combat experience? Literally a majority of his fights are winning through sheer AP. "And necause she's human he'll go all out" Like he did against Yusuke before losing in "tag"?

Furthermore You're treating Flame Empress as if it's her only armor she can use. She has several to fight with, Heaven's Wheel which let's her use multiple blades via telekinesis up to 200, thunder and sea empress armor for their respective elements, Flight Armor for Speed Enhancement, Blackwing for Flight, Purgatory Armor which gives an AP boost, Clear Heart Clothing which also gives an AP boost enough to One Shot foes, Armadura Fairy her self proclaimed strongest armor, and Adamantine Armor which his her strongest defense even moreso than Amadura Fairy.
 
Hagane no Saiyajin said:
And can the Flame Empress Armor resist Hiei's sword of the Darkness Flame, because it's going to be hard to half the AP of a Melee armor being swung at you.
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.....how does it being in Sword Form make it harder considering it's mainly a momentary AP boost? If anything it'll be easier because it's not the Dragon.
 
Hiei's resistance to cold is not anime only. He fought in a room coated in ice by Seiryu, who stated to throw sub-zero punches, and took several punches to the leg and was more hampered by his lack of mobility than the actual cold.
 
Milly Rocking Bandit said:
Hiei's resistance to cold is not anime only. He fought in a room coated in ice by Seiryu, who stated to throw sub-zero punches, and took several punches to the leg and was more hampered by his lack of mobility than the actual cold.
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https://www.***********.net/yu-yu-hakusho/39

Seiryu never laid a hand on him. He one shotted him and moved on.
 
RotofBots said:
Oh, it's 7-3 in Hiei's favor. Grace began an hour and twenty minutes ago.
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False.

It's 4 votes for Erza and arguably 6 for Hiei. But half the reasons for Hiei are faulty and still haven't been shown to be true. Milly's was soley on Mind Manip which was already taken care of early on and you still have yet to prove that the Jagan abilities you listed are either true or applicable to Hiei at this point in the story(which I can already tell you, they aren't the dude has all of 3 fights in this Key.)
 
I'm pretty sure Erza's Flame Empress Armor won't help here. FT makes a distinction between normal flames and black flames (ie Zancrow's), and if Natsu's far superior fire canceling abilities failed against it, I see no reason to believe Erza's will.
 
But the fire isn't different because it's black, it's because it's God Slaying Fire and that's > Dragon Slaying fire. Like saying Piccolo could oneshot Superman because Piccolo and Kyrptonite are both green.
 
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