Er-gen verse, 1-A downgrade discussion.

[Nepuko]

@Matt

That is literally baseless. You're saying it talks about parallel dimension and realities? What? from where? So you want to disregard what th author said and be like : yea it talks about parallel stuff. So we should take your headcanon, ignore what's written and shut up? Not cool.

And that last part was about the amount Meng Hao understood about space, not about space itself.

Smh.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Again, that proves nothing. "Countless dimensional spaces" in context with the larger quote is only talking about numerous parallel dimensions and realities. The "very essence of space" is just a meaningless term without proof that space has more than three dimensions and the fourth in ISSTH. Which so far I haven't seen.

Do you realize that by saying that by comparing 3D space and the Essence of Space to a tiny lake and a vast universe all you're accomplishing is keeping it 3D. Just on a much higher scale? You need higher degrees of infinity to go through higher stuff there.

You say that , but give no proof. There are no alternate universes that he can see there. He is in that one universe, and the space he is observing is inside of that one universe. QOute the part that makes you believe he is describing other universes, please. I really don't understand what makes you think that.

Of course you only answer that point but not the others... Meng Hao couldn't access the true power of the space essence, he states so himself, and could only use the threads to create 3D structures (the spehere/universe. And even that once per day), and to make things lower dimensional, like when he transformed the fire lizard into a "sheet of paper".

The Meng Hao that did this would not be 1-B, as he can still only access a small part of the essence magic here. The Meng Hao that trancsends the Essence itself would be 1-B.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Understanding the concept of space isn't a feat for space being higher-dimensional. My God, how difficult is it to understand that? What you are essentially arguing for has no basis on anything and isn't even a feat to begin with.

I don't need to give proof for something that is stated in the very quote itself. It's no my fault if your reading comprehension leads you to think the scene is talking about a completely unrelated subject.

 

[Nepuko]

And each time you add a thread it adds a "dimension", just like how it went from 2D to a 3d World when he added a thread, then when he added another it became weird stuff, 3d flames in static image, etc.

 

[RatherClueless]

" It's no my fault if your reading comprehension leads you to think the scene is talking about a completely unrelated subject"

Right back at you

This is just turning into a shit storm lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

None of that makes ANY sence. You agreed that it can be used to make sth 2D 3D, but makeing sth 3D 4D does not work, because... um, the reasons why it worked before? WHAT!?

I'm sorry that you think basic geometry makes no sense. But it's just how math works. You can't make Higher-Dimensional space by just adding anything less than an infinite amount of lower-dimensional space. Like, seriously here, don't you understand that if the threads are the components of space, which is consistently described in the story as made of three dimensions and flat out proven when he uses a thread to make an object three dimensional, simply adding a second thread cannot make 4D space.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

And each time you add a thread it adds a "dimension", just like how it went from 2D to a 3d World when he added a thread, then when he added another it became weird stuff, 3d flames in static image, etc.

Would be good if you had a single shred of evidence of this.

 

[Nepuko]

There are a lot of evidence above. Tired of quoting them again and again.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Understanding the concept of space isn't a feat for space being higher-dimensional. My God, how difficult is it to understand that? What you are essentially arguing for has no basis on anything and isn't even a feat to begin with.
I don't need to give proof for something that is stated in the very quote itself. It's no my fault if your reading comprehension leads you to think the scene is talking about a completely unrelated subject.

...Alright then. I made a line of thought in that comment. Please tell me the part where I was wrong. It has four parts, so by which was my assumption wrong and why. And highlight the part of the quote that you believe proves your point then. I must be having some mental problems not registering it, but bolding it out should help.

In-case you missed it:

The first part talks about how space here is referred to as the construct of dimensional axises, and not something large, the universe/multiverse, or space as we normally use it.

The second part is about how a single thread made a 2-D object a 3-D one. Thus further proving that a thread is not a and alternate dimension/universe, but an actual, spacial dimension.

The third was about how our three standard spatial dimensions are only part of space, as a total thing

And the last is about the number of spatial dimensions the concept of space contains in ISSTH.

 

[RatherClueless]

@Matthew

I am the one who doesnt understand!?

Dude, you litterally just debunked yourself xD

You are saying that 2D*2 is 3D, but the 3D*2 isnt 4D, coz thats not how it works.

No sh*t Sherlock. Ofc it doesnt work like that and that includes the 2D circle. You dont see the issue in your claim? Really?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I'm pretty sure they're saying that the verse has countless expressions of space compared to length, width and depth making it 1-B. Not the concept of space is tier 1 inhenrently.

 

[ShadowWarrior1999]

@Nepuko Quoting it again and again doesn't prove you right.

As a wise man once said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

 

[Nepuko]

Quotes. First part:Edit

• "As his foot descended, the entire world seemed to superimpose upon itself. Then it split apart, as if he had walked into a different dimension, as if he were no longer within the Mountain and Sea Realm. [...] The entire starry sky shook, and the Outsider who had transformed into a sea of flames seethed as he once again bore down on Meng Hao. However, instead of slamming into Meng Hao, he passed right through him. It was as if Meng Hao was now hovering, not in the Mountain and Sea Realm, but in some other dimensional space. The only thing which remained behind was a shadow, an image which everyone could see but not touch!"
• "Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads, threads that Meng Hao was very familiar with; every time he unleashed the Eighth Hex, these threads would appear, bind whoever was the target of the magic, and seal their cultivation base as well as their Nascent Divinity."
• Originally, Meng Hao had assumed that the threads were natural laws of Heaven and Earth. But now that he could see them clearly, he understood that they... were definitely not natural or magical laws!

They were dimensional spaces!"

• - "What is space...?" Meng Hao murmured. The sound of his voice echoed out, causing the starry sky to shake. Although his eyes were closed, in his mind, he could see numerous dimensional spaces, spreading out in all directions, stretching out over such a vast area that they seemed limitless.

"Length... is space....
"Height... is space....
"Breadth... is also space....
"Size, can also be an expression of space...."

• "Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portio of what space was. "
• "However, Meng Hao still didn't understand everything clearly. There was something he was missing, something he hadn't grasped.
• He needed to increase his powers of augury and understanding... to gain enlightenment of the true meaning of the Essence of space!"

This follows the first part, the 2nd part:Edit

• "Space... is nothing more than countless threads, formed together into a pattern. The patterns formed by those threads... are space!"
• "Meng Hao shook his head, then waved his hand, causing a circle to appear beneath his feet.
• I am currently within space," he said, looking down.
• Then he smiled as his enlightenment deepened. As for the sea of flames that was the Outsider Dao Sovereign, it appeared to be on the verge of consuming Meng Hao, but to the Dao Sovereign's utter shock, he realized that the flames were stuck to the outside of the thread that formed the circle!"
• "Meng Hao's expression was calm as he looked at the circle formed by the thread, within which he stood. Then he smiled. "As for these threads... doesn't the Essence I have gained enlightenment of consist of more than just the threads themselves?"
• "Withi these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space.... They are flat, but actually...." He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!
• With an additional thread, it is no longer a circle, but a sphere, like a world...."
• "'If that canvas was folded, the subsequent cracks that were created were dimensional rifts. Furthermore, if the canvas could be formed into a sphere, then that space would be... a world."

Note : This may be irrelevant, but the following quotes till the feat part happen between the above 1st and 2nd parts.


The following shows what was happening when Meng Hao was in the process of enlightenment (he's still in that dimension/dimensional space, and people can only see an image of him but can't touch it):

1. In the first quote, dude trying to attack and kill the "shadow" of Meng Hao that can be seen but not interacted with, and then stuff happening when Meng Hao is getting enlightenment of all the above:

• "At long last, the Outsider Dao Sovereign who had been trying every method possible to kill Meng Hao finally had no choice... but to stop unleashing his magic.

It was pointless....
As Meng Hao sought Dao enlightenment, the area around him distorted, occasionally expanding, occasionally contracting. Sometimes it would bulge upward and downward, and sometimes it would sweep out to the left or right.
The Outsider Dao Sovereign was trembling in his form of the flame sea. He couldn't affect Meng Hao at all, and in fact, was prevented from even getting close to him. The closer he got, the more unstable the void became, until destructive rifts even began to open up. In the end, he simply fled."

• "Currently nothing in existence could get close to that area, with the exception of Meng Hao, who was now gaining enlightenment of the Essence of space.
• Meng Hao's body was also in a distorted state of transformation. Rumbling could be heard as he expanded, then shrunk. In one instant he was as tiny as a mustard seed, in another, as huge as the Heavens!"
• "As of now, his state exceeded that of the Eighth Generation Demon Sealer when he actually created the Eighth Hex. At that time, he had only needed to understand the initial aspects regarding length, height, breadth, and size. With that, he had been able to create the Eighth Hex.
• On the other hand, what Meng Hao was contemplating was beyond that. He was contemplating the very Essence of space!"

2. He also got out of that dimensional space or whatever shortly (?) after by the way:

• "So, that's the Essence of space...." he said, smiling slightly. He could feel the Essence of space fading away within him, and could also sense his enhanced powers of augury and deduction dissipating. He sighed.

In almost the same instant that Meng Hao's eyes opened, the instability in the surrounding void faded away. Furthermore, his body returned to the Mountain and Sea Realm. When the maddened Outsider Dao Sovereign saw that, his sea of flames form seethed, and he shot toward Meng Hao."


Some stuff Meng Hao did after all the above enlightenment (feats I guess) :Edit

• "Meng Hao looked up at the shocked Outsider, who was still a sea of flames. Then Meng Hao waved his right hand, causing the flames to suddenly lock into place. Then they began to transform; no longer were they surrounding Meng Hao, but instead, they were now spreading out to form a static image of flames within the starry sky, like a painting!
• Then he waved his hand, and four threads appeared, surrounding the flames, almost as if they were a picture frame.
• Rumbling could be heard as the sea of flames trembled. Inside, the Outsider Dao Sovereign was howling bitterly. The fire seemed to be on the verge of slipping out of the shackles, of bursting out from within the threads that held it. And yet, it could not. Finally, the flames converged together, transforming into a lizard of fire. It began to butt its head against the threads, and yet that did nothing. It... could not free itself. It was completely sealed within what Meng Hao had created... the picture frame.
• "Meng Hao chuckled and suddenly raised his hand into the air, slowly clenching his fist in the direction of the painting within which hung the Outsider Dao Sovereign. It was as if he were crumpling a piece of paper into a ball; the canvas he had just created instantly transformed into ash.

The Outsider Dao Sovereign within let out a miserable cry, and was then completely destroyed."

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

There are a lot of evidence above. Tired of quoting them again and again.

Maybe bring up new quotes because if you present Evidence A, which is responded with counterargument A, merely presenting the same Evidence A again and again and again won't wield results.

 

[Nepuko]

@Nepuko Quoting it again and again doesn't prove you right.
As a wise man once said "the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results."

Not when the evidence is there and people ignore it.

And the wise man was right indeed

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Look, just quote and bold out the part that proves that the countless dimension are alternate universes, can you do that for me?

 

[Kepekley23]

Gotta be honest, this does sound 1-B just from a first glance. The quote states that by adding one thread it is analogue to making a circle into a sphere, so the context with the "countless dimensional spaces" statement does seem like it's talking about Higher-Dimensions, since they mention countless threads in the same sentence.

 

[Nepuko]

Another wise man said tho : Repetition is key. (College people totally agree ).

 

[Nepuko]

Kepekley23 God bless you man. (that makes 3 mods, tho we're not here to vote)

Finally one that sees T_T

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Nep, try not be biased. It's hard, yeah, but at least it makes you better at the argument if you are willing to reach a middlepoint, or even admit that you are wrong.

Every man has their own reasons for what they think, so you and I might just have missed Matt's point.

Making things antagonizing only gets people to dig in their heels, and that just leads to nothing good. Especially when the one that opposes you has more juristictive power in the argument than you.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And don't make it about a popularity thing. The amount (of mods) that agree should be a last resolt solution.

 

[Nepuko]

Nep, try not be biased. It's hard, yeah, but at least it makes you better at the argument if you are willing to reach a middlepoint, or even admit that you are wrong.
Every man has their own reasons for what they think, so you and I might just have missed Matt's point.

Making things antagonizing only gets people to dig in their heels, and that just leads to nothing good. Especially when the one that opposes you has more juristictive power in the argument than you.

I truly am not here, I'm just happy one finally sees what I meant by those quotes. Simple as that.

Edit: and I agree on what you said about Matt, I'm just waiting for said points that were not already debunked.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

(Sorry for the triple post)

Anyhow, I've been called in to work to help out a little, so I probably won't be able to answer until another two hours in a bit.

 

[Nepuko]

And don't make it about a popularity thing. The amount (of mods) that agree should be a last resolt solution.

Of course, which is why I said this is not about voting XD. Just brought that up since Matt seems to bring it. Won't do so.

 

[Zaratthustra]

I like that none still give good arguments explaining what they disagree (not just there is nothing 1-A or there is no dimensional space). You say that we have no proof/scans but they all have been shown. You say that there's nothing indicating to 1-A but there has been a lot of explanation done from this thread.

Still, no one debunked Essence - it clearly says that is the source and origin of everything. You say it's not but are you words more above the one of the Author itself when he presents it in 4 (5 possibly with his new novel) different Novels the same thing? No, I don't think as he is the headcanon - if he says that Termites are beings that transcend Laws and can use Essence then it's True as it's his novel, what he wrote there is the canon.

From beginning to it's end all his novels have shown space/time/life-death/rebirth/beginning-end/fate-karma/cause and effect/reality-illusion/yin-yang/etc and all those were are beneath a complete mastery of Essence where one becomes a Transcendor and become Essence itself. Essence itself transcends all those concepts while Cultivators who reach Step 4 transcend even it.

It's even stated that Essence is Dao.

I have posted scans of where it states that as a Daosource Cultivator he will be the Source of Dao. Whatever Essence a Transcendor wants will exist, and whatever he doesn's approve will cease to exist. When a Transcendor appears a new Will will appear, a new Essence that replaces the existing ones.

A Transcendor is someone not bound by something as simple as Essence as they transcend it. Essence at its own can't compare with Daosource which transcend even it. A Transcendor as I have posted above is Daosource itself - they create/destroy and change them as they seem fit. He's completely independent of the actual Daosource as he can play with it.

They are beings that do not obey the laws of normal logic at any level as Daosource cultivators transcend any form of existence, any form of duality, any form of time-space, any form of beginning-end, any form of size, any form of life-death, any form of existence and nonexistence as they are Daosource themselves, something intrinsic beyond Essence.

And Matt don't be so aggressive when it's you who seems to not read things well as It was posted and said that " It's no my fault if your reading comprehension leads you to think the scene is talking about a completely unrelated subject ", when it's you who can't simply understand that in novel comprehension leads to mastering said Essence. Not our fault that you can't understand or accept as I have said n-times that that feat was done before even reaching Vast Expanse, or him being a Dao Lord, or being a Transcendor. It was simple the moment from which he started to master Essence. Progressively as the story continued his comprehension increased till the moment it reached the peak and exploded making him a Transcendor.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Claiming that someone has been debunked does not help with animousty dude... It might be right, I thgink it is, but it still misses my point.

Though I agree it's nice to have someone acknowledge our points, yes.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah just one person showing up and saying "Seems 1-B" and then not replying (Like Ultima or Qaw) isn't good enough in my book.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also Nep, your supposed "New quotes" are stuff I had already seen in the first thread and in the blogs before then. If you think they will convince me you're wrong, because I made the downgrade thread after seeing them to begin with.

 

[Kepekley23]

Though, it also doesn't seem like every single mention of a "dimensional space" is necessarily talking about a higher-dimension, going by this quote:

• ""As his foot descended, the entire world seemed to superimpose upon itself. Then it split apart, as if he had walked into a different dimension, as if he were no longer within the Mountain and Sea Realm. [...] The entire starry sky shook, and the Outsider who had transformed into a sea of flames seethed as he once again bore down on Meng Hao. However, instead of slamming into Meng Hao, he passed right through him. It was as if Meng Hao was now hovering, not in the Mountain and Sea Realm, but in some other dimensional space"

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Though, it also doesn't seem like every single mention of a "dimensional space" is necessarily talking about a higher-dimension, going by this quote:

• ""As his foot descended, the entire world seemed to superimpose upon itself. Then it split apart, as if he had walked into a different dimension, as if he were no longer within the Mountain and Sea Realm. [...] The entire starry sky shook, and the Outsider who had transformed into a sea of flames seethed as he once again bore down on Meng Hao. However, instead of slamming into Meng Hao, he passed right through him. It was as if Meng Hao was now hovering, not in the Mountain and Sea Realm, but in some other dimensional space"

That uses different writing in chnise if I remember right, especially because that's one of those sentences that keep popping up in his works, like a running joke, except... it's not funny, I guess.

It is also used when someone just became standard intangible, and is a hyperbole like the statement "he attacked with earth shaking, heaven defying power", something the author really likes to use.

 

[RatherClueless]

Though, it also doesn't seem like every single mention of a "dimensional space" is necessarily talking about a higher-dimension, going by this quote

Why wouldnt it be? What other "dimensional space" would he be talking about? This is probably one of the most straight forward ones out there...

 

[Qawsedf234]

Yeah just one person showing up and saying "Seems 1-B" and then not replying (Like Ultima or Qaw) isn't good enough in my book.

I don't really like to weigh in on franchises that I'm not familiar with. Which is why I've tried to keep my opinions limited. As I said before, I think the quote can back a 1-B rating. But it might not and I don't know enough about the verse to make a definitive weigh in.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yeah just one person showing up and saying "Seems 1-B" and then not replying (Like Ultima or Qaw) isn't good enough in my book.

I mean, he gave reasoning for why he believes that.

You said you think those dimensions are alternate realities. He said they seem to be spatial dimensions in the context.

You can disagree, but it's not a blind comment or anything.


Though again, could you please help me understand your point?

 

[Andytrenom]

The "countless dimensions of space having different sizes" is one thing that feels odd if it was spatial dimension, since parameters of measurement cannot exactly have distinct measurements. But maybe that's just a minor thing

How threads manage to be geometric dimensions which would technically be an abstract thing instead of a physical object also would demand some answers, since there should be inuniverse explanations that make sense of such a thing

Just to clarify I'm not trying to refute 1-B, I just want doubts cleared up about certain things regarding the evidence for it.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yeah. @Andy

If you look at the quote as it was presented in the imgur link in the first thread you'll see how I argue that it is in fact just parallel universes / dimensions.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, Zara. Please stop talking about 1-A via scaling from the Dao.

 

[Nepuko]

Though, it also doesn't seem like every single mention of a "dimensional space" is necessarily talking about a higher-dimension, going by this quote:

• ""As his foot descended, the entire world seemed to superimpose upon itself. Then it split apart, as if he had walked into a different dimension, as if he were no longer within the Mountain and Sea Realm. [...] The entire starry sky shook, and the Outsider who had transformed into a sea of flames seethed as he once again bore down on Meng Hao. However, instead of slamming into Meng Hao, he passed right through him. It was as if Meng Hao was now hovering, not in the Mountain and Sea Realm, but in some other dimensional space"

As @Ricsi said. And maybe it's irrelevant, but that was the only instance in 4 novels, in 6000+ chapters, that dimensional space was used for something other than the threads. He could also be in another dimension, or really inside a dimensional space, who knows. Tho the main point is more about the threads, and what you basically said about them.

Thanks for your input tho

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The "countless dimensions of space having different sizes" is one thing that feels odd if it was spatial dimension, since parameters of measurement cannot exactly have distinct measurements. But maybe that's just a minor thing
How threads manage to be geometric dimensions which would technically be an abstract thing instead of a physical object also would demand some answers, since there should be inuniverse explanations that make sense of such a thing

Just to clarify I'm not trying to refute 1-B, I just want doubts cleared up about certain things regarding the evidence for it.

It says "each different sizes", so from the each I would imagine that all of them are different types of "sizes", like width or depth. It's possible it's written like that because of how dificult it is to describe something humans can't understand properly, or just a translation thing.

This one is just a weird thing with most of his (Er Gen's) concepts. They are normally intangible (what we are talking about is still Essence, which I remind you is stated to be intangible and invisible), it just how he percieves them I imagine. For exemple, Bai could see time as a river, with one side being past and the other being future.

I don't understand this point? I don't see why it should be an object.

 

[Zaratthustra]

Also, Zara. Please stop talking about 1-A via scaling from the Dao.

Do you see me using real Dao? No, I have talked about the Dao from Novel which is posted with scans that its Essence. Don't bring old answer without backing them. As all I have said above can be found in the scans/statement/quotes that were posted in this and the old thread.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I find it hard to believe in Nep's clarification since just from these threads I've seen more than enough points where Dimensional Spaces clearly don't mean spatial dimensions.