Er-gen verse, 1-A downgrade discussion.

[Nepuko]

Why? There is no reason to, it's not actually called dimensional in the Chinese version, and anybody who can comment on tier 1 will understand.

No, there are plenty reasons to.

-it's in the translation, and those threads were called that plenty of time. Also, it's only in these chapters related to the thread stuff that "dimensional spaces" ever appeared in the novel (from what it seems), so yea, they were used specifically for the threads, from what it seems. Also the word "dimensional spaces" being the reason Ultima starts beleiving the 1-B stuff.

-and in context the chinese characters do mean dimensional space, both Deathblade and an unrelated native speaker professional translator said that, as according ot the screenshots I showed in the previous thread. Also, please do not bring back that convo, just when it finally ended. (and after I overkilled with proofs and screenshots)


And at least make the other changes I put in the previous reply.

And this is a suggestion, but if you wish to, maybe add Quas and Ultima to the "for 1-B" since you added them for the "against" side.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

That is not a reason to add them, and taking and extra from the translation is uneeded. And them being called that is not a reason to believe it. Ultima himself mentions the fact that lenght, width and depth being it's component is what matters.

That, again, is not a reason to add them.


I will not make this into a "who gets more votes", no.

 

[Nepuko]

That is not a reason to add them, and taking and extra from the translation is uneeded. And them being called that is not a reason to believe it. Ultima himself mentions the fact that lenght, width and depth being it's component is what matters.
That, again, is not a reason to add them.


I will not make this into a "who gets more votes", no.

-Ugh. You make it seem like there need to be a "reason" to add them, while they're inherently part of what's going on. "Taking an extra" from the translation? huh? I told you that in context the chinese characters themselves mean that.

And again, I said there's no harm on adding them. Why do you feel reluctant about that now? Why would it be bad to specify what the threads themselves are?

Sigh.


-Oh, that wasn't the intention, but ok, nevermind that.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

The characters don't mean that, they can be interpreted as that. I can say "space" while reffering to spatial space like here, much like someone can say dimension while referencing a universe, that doesn't change what was said, just that the context implies it.

Because there is no reason to add it, there was derailment already because of it, and frankly it changes nothing.


I can guess that, but it just kind of always happens in every thread where peaple start doing it. At most if Matt and everyone else just... stops responding we tell Ant that these guys agreed while no-one disagreed and update the stuff accordingly.

 

[Nepuko]

The characters don't mean that, they can be interpreted as that. I can say "space" while reffering to spatial space like here, much like someone can say dimension while referencing a universe, that doesn't change what was said, just that the context implies it.
Because there is no reason to add it, there was derailment already because of it, and frankly it changes nothing.


I can guess that, but it just kind of always happens in every thread where peaple start doing it. At most if Matt and everyone else just... stops responding we tell Ant that these guys agreed while no-one disagreed and update the stuff accordingly.

- Again, in context the characters do mean that. Two professional translators say that, native speakers, not me (well now yes). I also believe that as one who're also in the "for 1-B" section, I have the right and a say in what's written there, especially if it's for stuff that's not going against what's written there. Only writing what you think is the reason why it's 1-B and having a sort of "monopoly" of that, isn't very cool. So yea, just because you think them being called Dimensional Spaces or not is any relevant have nothing to do with this bro.

 

[Nepuko]

But as I said in a reply above, "whatever". Forget about this. If I expected to have this......"issue" right now, especially from you and about such a casual stuff, I'd never said it in the first place. So really, just ignore that. I never said that, and this never happened alright? Let's quit before this evolves to something bigger, "internal strife" is what I least want right now.


But I believe the more flowing and better : - Against 1-A: 1-B not being a thing makes 1-A impossible, so any argument against 1-B is against 1-A. Or as Quas said, trancsending 1-B could simply be a higher level of 1-B, and would need either transcending High 1-B or true platonic concepts to be proved 1-A.

...wouldn't be a problem? (Since putting "As Quas said" after the first sentence while it's completely unrelated to that is a bit weird imo)

 

[FloweryAlex]

Ignore him, dude had his finals, and then worked in restaurant with 37 degrees out and ovens and all on for a good six hours. He'll prob sleep it off.

 

[Nepuko]

Lmao.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Flowery: The dude has gone through totrutre by being cooked alive for hours

Nepuko: *Laughs his ass off*

Me:

 

[Nepuko]

@Ricsi

I see you're a man of culture. *nods*

 

[FloweryAlex]

1-B or 1-A, we still have tier 1 aphrodisiac pill.

Also, like, by the end of ISSTH Meng isn't really in the fifth step, but by AWE he is. So does he get a different key then?

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

People are just trying to hijack the discussion and ignore the whole problems with the verse.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

It's nice that you guys completely ignored the start of the first thread where the downgrade points were all proven. And at no point did you make any effort to respond properly.

 

[Nepuko]

Sorry, but we could say the same about you. You compeltely ignore how things evolved to, and compeltely ignore arguments and use the same unfounded arguments that were already disproven again and again, making no effort to properly answer. Not cool man.

Sigh.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

You could at least stop with the "You're just biased / hater / in denial" accusations.

 

[Nepuko]

I literally never said that.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

He did neither of those three, and you claimed things like "he talks about Vast Expanse there", which is blatantly false.

 

[RatherClueless]

We already did that.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

So, getting into the argument proper:

• "if you look at the context, the scan which supposedly proves spatial dimensions is just the guy being awed at the size of a multiverse"

Nope. First of all, he is not marveling at the size of the multiverse. He is getting enlightenment in space essence, not the muliverse.

Secondly, the part about height, lenght and width make it clear that he is talking about spatial axis. He describes how the three spatial axises in our world are part of "space".

Lastly, this is a part of the context. He later mentions that "length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portion of what space was" which is why it's tier 1 and not simply 3D spatial manipulation.

• The context is talking about the Vast Expanse, which is described as being made of "many worlds and realms". Other scans talk about it being "filled with possibilities"

No. he is talking about the essence of space, the part where he describes the Essence of space. Vast Expanse doesn't even come up.


So, please qoute your other arguments.

 

[Andytrenom]

Guys please just forget about making accusations and just focus on making arguments and responding to the arguments in a neutral manner

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

The enlightening of space is just talking about how large it all is. It has nothing to do with higher spatial dimensions.

And again, the Vast Expanse is just described as a multiverse. "Essence" is just a meaningless buzzword here. It proves nothing. Nothing about your counterargument debunks my OP, Ricsi. So try somethign else.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

You can say that, but I gave reasons why I believe what I do. You didn't.


Vast Expanse isn't even mentioned in that chapter.

 

[Nepuko]

" The enlightening of space is just talking about how large it all is "

W-what. O_O

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

I did give the reasons many times.

And that's funny because the dude was using such scans to argue 1-B and 1-A to begin with. Look at the other thread. He handed a bunch of scans to defend the current ratings none of which sufficed. With most of the staff agreeing.

The talk about how space is made of height, width and depth doesn't prove a thing. It's still not sufficient evidence for to indicate spatial dimensions. It is just talking about how vast and infinite space is. An infinite three-dimensional space can easily be described as endless or infinite or immeasurable. This is basic stuff.

"Stretching through infinite dimensions" doesn't necessarily mean infinite separate spatial dimensions, just dimensions which are infinite in size. Language is a funny thing like that.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Great, qoute them please, maybe I just missed them.

I don't care about other dudes.

And that isn't all of it, but I'll give you the quote right away, just a sec.

You can interpret it like that, but that wasn't part of my argument, either.

 

[RatherClueless]

"The enlightening of space is just talking about how large it all is. It has nothing to do with higher spatial dimensions."

1. If you make claims like that, than please tell us WHY you think so.

2. I fail to see why you think so. Honestly, enlightment of space being stuff about the multiverse? Where did you get that from? No matter how I look at it, thats just not there lol

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

" The enlightening of space is just talking about how large it all is "
W-what. O_O

I mean, yeah. A lot of the supposed philosophy in these Xianxia stories just amounts to "Woa shit's big".

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Also, what the hell do you think dimensions and universes are made of? Space. Hell, the word for space and universe in both Japanese and Chinese is the same last I checked. Using the word "Space" to talk about universes and stuff is hardly strange. Rather it is acceptable. And the context of the actual quotes says NOTHING about higher dimensions.

That is just your assertion based on vague wording when applying western VBW lens through it.

 

[RatherClueless]

"I mean, yeah. A lot of the supposed philosophy in these Xianxia stories just amounts to "Woa shit's big"."

No it doesnt. I do however think we are getting closer to the issue. You dont understand the verse, do you?

 

[Nepuko]

TL;DR: Lenght, Width and Height are part of what is called "space" in this chapter. A single thread made a flat circle into a 3D sphere that was a world of it's own. There are "countless" threads. I.E. Tier 1.

• Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads, threads that Meng Hao was very familiar with; every time he unleashed the Eighth Hex, these threads would appear, bind whoever was the target of the magic, and seal their cultivation base as well as their Nascent Divinity.

This alone doesn't mean anything tierwise. Emphasis on "this alone".

• "Length... is space.... "Height... is space.... "Breadth... is also space.... "Size, can also be an expression of space...."

Now this, this is what proves that the space referce to spatial dimensions. Lenght, height and width are what our spatial dimension is made out of. And size is an expression of it.

However, the most important part here is that spatial dimensions are equated to the word "space".

• Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portion of what space was.

The last sentance clears up all the previous problems with the threads only making the three spatial dimension, and nothing above. Width, Lenght and Height are part of the "space" described here, but not all of it.

• "Space... is nothing more than countless threads, formed together into a pattern. The patterns formed by those threads... are space!"

So, there are countless threads that make up all of space. This would mean at least High 2-A, as there is more than the three spatial dimensions (plus temporal axis) in the space that is referenced here.

• "Within these threads are length, height, breadth, and size. They are limitless, and that is space.... They are flat, but actually...." He waved his right hand, causing a thread to stretch out from the circle, and then pass over him. In the blink of an eye, the circle of threads was no longer flat, but had transformed into... a sphere!

"With an additional thread, it is no longer a circle, but a sphere, like a world....

This is the part that proves 1-B. A single extra thread made a flat circle into a three Dimensional sphere. In-fact, the sphere is a "world" (something that the author, at least in AWE, refers to a place that is a place of it's own and not a part of the universe, and often has it's own, personal laws of reality).

And some might think that he only says it's just like a world, and isn' t the actual thing. But that's later confirmed to be an actual world:

• If that canvas was folded, the subsequent cracks that were created were dimensional rifts. Furthermore, if the canvas could be formed into a sphere, then that space would be... a world

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

"I mean, yeah. A lot of the supposed philosophy in these Xianxia stories just amounts to "Woa shit's big"."
No it doesnt. I do however think we are getting closer to the issue. You dont understand the verse, do you?

I do. It apparently is you that doesn't. "Enlightnment of Space" is a meaningless word-salad and it shows no proof that it is what you think it is.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Yea, but Er Gen never referred to big stuff as dimensional.

Plus, he knows what spatial dimension are. He had the MC of A Will Eternal transform the universe into a "singularity", a reality with no width, lenght or depth where all things were contained in a "point". After that Bai made it an infinite line by adding lengt, an infinite "paper sheet" by adding width, and then and infinite box by adding depth. Then he added a temporal axis to it, and he got a proper universe.

Still, I'll give ya some of the stuff for higher D in just one moment.

 

[Nepuko]

Of course it does when it outright shows you what it is.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Nepuko, I've seen this same freaking line a bazillion times now and it doesn't prove what you think it is.

And yes, space is made by these threads. But don't you see how your assertion is illogical. One thread makes a flat 2D image a 3D object. And there are endless threads much like how space is endless.

But all that amounts to is infinite 3D space at most. You can't reach 4D by multiplying 3D x 2. That's not how it works. Spatial Dimensions aren't additional. It doesn't work like that.

Your whole claim that it proves 1-B falls apart under the slightest scrutiny which is why I never considered it worth discussing to begin with. Because I thought rational people would see it too.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Yea, but Er Gen never referred to big stuff as dimensional.
Plus, he knows what spatial dimension are. He had the MC of A Will Eternal transform the universe into a "singularity", a reality with no width, lenght or depth where all things were contained in a "point". After that Bai made it an infinite line by adding lengt, an infinite "paper sheet" by adding width, and then and infinite box by adding depth. Then he added a temporal axis to it, and he got a proper universe.

Still, I'll give ya some of the stuff for higher D in just one moment.

Cool. So Low 2-C stuff. Nothing of what you guys showed so far goes beyond Tier 2.

 

[Nepuko]

Nepuko, I've seen this same freaking line a bazillion times now and it doesn't prove what you think it is.
And yes, space is made by these threads. But don't you see how your assertion is illogical. One thread makes a flat 2D image a 3D object. And there are endless threads much like how space is endless.

But all that amounts to is infinite 3D space at most. You can't reach 4D by multiplying 3D x 2. That's not how it works. Spatial Dimensions aren't additional. It doesn't work like that.

Your whole claim that it proves 1-B falls apart under the slightest scrutiny which is why I never considered it worth discussing to begin with. Because I thought rational people would see it too.

"Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portio of what space was. "

"As of now, his state exceeded that of the Eighth Generation Demon Sealer when he actually created the Eighth Hex. At that time, he had only needed to understand the initial aspects regarding length, height, breadth, and size. With that, he had been able to create the Eighth Hex.

On the other hand, what Meng Hao was contemplating was beyond that. He was contemplating the very Essence of space!"

"In fact, his enlightenment of the Essence of Space could be likened to a vastly deep pit, at the bottom of which was a tiny lake. Eventually, though, that deep pit would become... a boundless sea of stars!"

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

"Still, I'll give ya some of the stuff for higher D in just one moment."

You know, every you blatantly ignore parts of what I write, I can feel a part of me finding your opinion something that really shouldn't matter more than the other mods that agreed to this thing.

When I say I'll show it to you in a moment, you shouldn't claim that we haven't shown you anything GG


My point was that you claiming that this is the author's way of saying "shit is really big here" is wrong, because the author knows what spatial dimensions are.

 

[RatherClueless]

Nepuko, I've seen this same freaking line a bazillion times now and it doesn't prove what you think it is.

And yes, space is made by these threads. But don't you see how your assertion is illogical. One thread makes a flat 2D image a 3D object. And there are endless threads much like how space is endless.

But all that amounts to is infinite 3D space at most. You can't reach 4D by multiplying 3D x 2. That's not how it works. Spatial Dimensions aren't additional. It doesn't work like that.

Your whole claim that it proves 1-B falls apart under the slightest scrutiny which is why I never considered it worth discussing to begin with. Because I thought rational people would see it too.

None of that makes ANY sence. You agreed that it can be used to make sth 2D 3D, but makeing sth 3D 4D does not work, because... um, the reasons why it worked before? WHAT!?

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

My reasons, if you need a refresher, is that this is obviously describing the three spatial dimensions of our world while describing "Space":

• "Length... is space...."Height... is space...."Breadth... is also space...."Size, can also be an expression of space...."

Yes, but this just justifies standard spatial manip and that's it, right? Well there is this part on top of it:

• "With an additional thread, it is no longer a circle, but a sphere, like a world....

So one thread made a circle, a 2-D shape, into a sphere, a 3-D shape. Still only three dimensional spatial manip, right?

• Among the countless dimensional spaces, he saw that they could be described in terms of length, height, breadth, and overall size. And yet all of that seemed to be only a portion of what space was.

This claims the three dimensions pointed out up to now are only part of space. But this isn't enough of a proof, maybe he doesn't mean higher dimension but just... other things.

• Meng Hao saw countless dimensions of space, all of them different sizes. Some were blurry, others were clear. They transformed into countless threads

Now, if you understand that a single thread made a circle into a sphere, and you understand that there are "countless" threads that are created by countless dimensions, which put together make up space and it's expressions, than you understand that the dimensions here refer to spatial ones, not alternate universes.

There is nothing about an alternate universe in this chapter, and in-fact he couldn't even observe other universes at that point, only observing and absorbing essence from the one universe he was inside of.


You have not given a qoute to prove that he is speaking of alternate universes when describing the "countless dimension", you have not countered the point that each thread obviously rapresents a spatial axis, and you brought up a place that isn't even mentioned in what we are talking about.

 

[Matthew_Schroeder]

Wow, yes, Nepuko, thanks for giving me the exact same post again.

Again, that proves nothing. "Countless dimensional spaces" in context with the larger quote is only talking about numerous parallel dimensions and realities. The "very essence of space" is just a meaningless term without proof that space has more than three dimensions and the fourth in ISSTH. Which so far I haven't seen.

Do you realize that by saying that by comparing 3D space and the Essence of Space to a tiny lake and a vast universe all you're accomplishing is keeping it 3D. Just on a much higher scale? You need higher degrees of infinity to go through higher stuff there.