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Edelweiss vs Emiya (Archer)

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For example people in Rakudai become Desparado with sheer willpower, not magic. Other characters in different verses may have more willpower but can't do this.

Again she'll just change the fate of her loss in combat. There are still the passives and death manipulation.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
Except it is not impossible for anyone in Rakudai, just really hard, and this notion is never contradicted.

And I never said it equated to body control, just that immense skill resulting in absurd results also happens in Fate. Its not even an exclusive trick like magic, is just something anyone with sufficient skill can pull off.

And again, she still has to somehow not be slightly tapped through all the battle somehow, so I am not sure about her chances.
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See what I bolded? That's the point. In Rakudai, you can do that. That doesn't mean that you can just take a real life human and say that he can learn it because verse equal. In dragon ball you can fire energy blasts by training and self-control, but Compostie Human ain't pulling a kamehameha anytime soon.

That... doesn't matter here tough.

She can just will him to death, can't she? And regardless of AP, a tap is not killing. I can get my hand cut of by a tier 2 for all that it matters, but it's still only a missing hand.
 
If the person explicitly can copy the skill level of the person in question, and the ability is done entirely by said skill level, and it is a natural thing anyone can pull off with this skill level and not something specific to someone or a species, it makes no sense to assume that though.

Leaving aside the difficulty of learning it, Re-Taekwando gives an AP boost just by using it. This isn't because the user is special, is just intrinsic to using the style, so anyone that could copy it by extension would also get stat amping.
 
Ricsi-viragosi said:
See what I bolded? That's the point. In Rakudai, you can do that. That doesn't mean that you can just take a real life human and say that he can learn it because verse equal. In dragon ball you can fire energy blasts by training and self-control, but Compostie Human ain't pulling a kamehameha anytime soon.

That... doesn't matter here tough.

She can just will him to death, can't she? And regardless of AP, a tap is not killing. I can get my hand cut of by a tier 2 for all that it matters, but it's still only a missing hand.
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You are comparing something that can be pulled off only by someone that has ki, to something everyone with sufficient skill can pull off in Rakudai. It doesn't matter that its from Rakudai, it matters that it is an intrinsic potential anyone with sufficient skill can pull off. If Emiya can replicate a similar level of skill from someone that does exactly that, its nonsensical to say he couldn't copy this quality that accompanies this level of skill.
 
If Edelweiss can't kill Emiya with her desperado abilities the AP difference renders her skills completely irrelevant - even if Emiya can't land an attack he can fight for longer than her and will eventually win.

I voe for Emiya.
 
EmperorRorepme said:
Uh you missed the passive abilities and death hax in that comment. Still don't see how he can resist.
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Servants resist death manipulation - Sigurds primordial runes didn't kill Holmes and they are superior to normal death runes.
 
I really don't care what you consider idiotic. Comparing a technique that requires an specific energy source to something achieved purely by skill being copied by someone that can replicate skill is arguing semantics uselessly.

And is using the death hax a thing she actually does for battles?
 
Tdtd1234 said:
Servants resist death manipulation - Sigurds primordial runes didn't kill Holmes and they are superior to normal death runes.
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When? The rune would only activate if Holmes moved, he didn't resist it.
 
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
When? The rune would only activate if Holmes moved, he didn't resist it.
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Da vinci concluded Sigurd was using primordial rune because a normal one can't kill a heroic spirit.
 
Tdtd1234 said:
LSirLancelotDuLacl said:
When? The rune would only activate if Holmes moved, he didn't resist it.
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Da vinci concluded Sigurd was using primordial rune because a normal one can't kill a heroic spirit.
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What chapter is that again in LB2? Because I didnt read it unlike lb3.
 
Yeah found it.

Da Vinci is in disbelief ― there is no rune magecraft that can kill a Heroic Spirit. However, she checks herself promptly ― it must be a Primeval Rune. A fundamental magecraft from the Age of Gods, created by the great god Odin. Holmes adds that Sigurd had learnt the use of runes from Odin's daughter.
 
Oh, im back. So back to the points.

  • Something being possible in verse doesn't mean it's possible in other verses too. I swear to god if you say Emiya can copy Juuzou Shishimi's concept cutting because it is done via skill and not supernatural ability im gonna come there and real life slap you. Im serious, im gonna do that.
    Cut even concepts
  • Probability hax and luck. Yeah...not happening on a type 4 acausal.
  • How can edelweiss win, well, she stated that she can wound or kill people by willing it. So anything is posible, especially if she notices the difference in AP.
  • Edelweiss will be affected by the revisions, she will have an upgrade to her AP and speed stats, so eh.
 
Your really going to use Juuzo huh, but his skill would reach the lvl of true magic in nasuverse. Because in the last chapter, he can even affect the 4th dimension.
 
John985 said:
Your really going to use Juuzo huh, but his skill would reach the lvl of true magic in nasuverse. Because in the last chapter, he can even affect the 4th dimension.
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Meh even without that. It being possible in verse doesn't mean it is possible in "every" verse. There is a reason i never argued "ikki copies the concept cutting", that kind of thing isn't (may become a thing later) a thing in Rakudai.
 
You are now comparing something that no one in verse except Juuzo can do and that falls directly into outright hax, with something way more simple like body control and that Ikki isn't even the only person to be able to do it. Even Stella is taught to control her metabolism and heart rate to use Dragon Spirit better.

Once again, can we stop the false equivalences?
 
No actually. Only juuzou can do cus he's that skilled. Theoretically if someone trained for 800 years like Juuzou in UQ holder they would perform the same kind of thing.
 
Except that's only theoretically. We have people older than Juuzo, many several times older, yet he's still the only one in the entire world that can pull that off. In a verse with 'three' planets.

In Rakudai, is just a natural result of sufficient training that, again, Ikki is not even the only one that can do such stuff.

Now, anything you want to add to the actual battle and what has been said before?
 
Yes, we do have people older than juuzou, none have trained 800 years with a sword alone though. Like dude if it weren't for Ikki, no one in the verse would have the same technique as Edelweiss. Juuozu is literally just another case like Rakudai here. Body control of that level via skill "is not" possible in other verses unless shown because "it is not possible normally", similarly the concept cutting, even though it's a result of skill and can be learned by swinging many times, is not possible in other verses unless shown to be so.

Im not giving false equivalences. Both examples are feats that "are impossible normally" but "possible via skill in verse".
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Yes, we do have people older than juuzou, none have trained 800 years with a sword alone though. Like dude if it weren't for Ikki, no one in the verse would have the same technique as Edelweiss. Juuozu is literally just another case like Rakudai here. Body control of that level via skill "is not" possible in other verses unless shown because "it is not possible normally", similarly the concept cutting, even though it's a result of skill and can be learned by swinging many times, is not possible in other verses unless shown to be so.

Im not giving false equivalences. Both examples are feats that "are impossible normally" but "possible via skill in verse".
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Herc's nine lives is pure skill producing effect on the level of noble phantasm and shirou can copy it. Besides body control isn't that inpresive in the nasuverse but concept cuting is.
 
It not sounding as impressive as concept cutting has nothing to do with it. What feats has Emiya copied on the same level of body control as Edelweiss?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
It not sounding as impressive as concept cutting has nothing to do with it. What feats has Emiya copied on the same level of body control as Edelweiss?
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Now that i think about it isn't reinforcement similar to body control?
 
00potato said:
I don't see how it is It is just physical enhancment right?
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I am on the phone so i can't check but didn't he reinforce his bones when they broke against heracles? How does body control help her win?
 
Firephoenixearl said:
Outdated AP for Edelweiss

Pretty sure he doesn't resist her death hax.
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What is her curent AP? I already wrote that servants resist death hax somewhere above.
 
Edelweiss has no counter to Unlimited Blade Works and Archer also out-range her hard.
 
Ionliosite said:
I vote Edelweiss vía outskilling him and death hax.
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Emiya is 7-A and she's 8-A likely low 7-C. And skills is negated by UBW copy.
 
John985 said:
Yeah found it.
Da Vinci is in disbelief ― there is no rune magecraft that can kill a Heroic Spirit. However, she checks herself promptly ― it must be a Primeval Rune. A fundamental magecraft from the Age of Gods, created by the great god Odin. Holmes adds that Sigurd had learnt the use of runes from Odin's daughter.
Click to expand...
For death hax.
 
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