Edelweiss vs Emiya (Archer)

[Gemmysaur]

Shirou doesn't even replicate the skill of the wielder of the sword he copies. The sword moves by itself based on how its true wielder would go about, and he's just moving along for the ride.

 

[Sdanand]

No, the point I'm illustrating is that if you say for example, Shirou had a body control level of 1, Saber having one of 100, and Edelweiss having one of 10,000. It doesn't matter, Shirou doesn't actually consciously make his body move, it's the sword's history that's making him move. It's not like he gained the knowledge of the techniques in his mind and had to actively try to make use of them. They just work.

It's not like Edelweiss' swordsmanship is based off of having a third arm or something that Shirou's body wouldn't be able to reproduce. The full-body-control that Ikki/Edelweiss does is not a superpower or unique trait given at birth such as Sword Eater's Marginal Counter, it's a skill that anyone should theoretically be able to do given they have the same amount of training and determination as Ikki.

In fact, the whole narrative is just that; Ikki is the shittiest base you can have with even his Noble Art being a shitty version of something everyone else can also do (strength multiplication), but his own willpower and physical training/conditioning is able to offset the huge gap created by his shitty base.

I think that's a logical ground to consider "Perfect-body-control" to be a skill that anyone can learn in theory, just that it's so difficult that no one can actually learn it. Shirou/Archer's UBW completely bypasses this because it's not like the user of UBW is given the knowledge and needs to actively try to reproduce the skill with their own conscious brain, the technique and skills of the user of said weapon reproduced just flows through the body because of the magecraft associated with it.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He never seems to run into this problem in UBW and Heaven's Feel where he has much better control of his powers, so that was likely inexperience. He's in complete control even using Archer's dual swords after all. By consequence, Archer should too.

 

[Gemmysaur]

He is Archer, and Archer is him. Also, KnB are unique in that it historically doesn't even have a wielder, which is one of the reasons why EMIYA likes it so much, a noble phantasm with a cool ability that won't overwrite his own sword skill with another's.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Oh, Gemmy is back again. Yo boyo, ya wanna help with the rakudai revisions?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

In that case he should be able to copy the technique. If his sword basically just downloads all the information into his body rather than learning the skill.

How does he deal with the passive aura within the battle. If Edelweiss is being pressed in swordsmanship to ther point of losing thats what she'd resort to strengthening her aura or willing death.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

In that case he should be able to copy the technique. If his sword basically just downloads all the information into his body rather than learning the skill.

That kind of brings up the question. If skill level doesn't matter then why was he unable to use Kojirou's technique?

 

[John985]

That fear passive doesnt really matter too, when he resisted it from Avenger in HF and all servant from Tiamat chaos tide.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He is Archer, and Archer is him. Also, KnB are unique in that it historically doesn't even have a wielder, which is one of the reasons why EMIYA likes it so much, a noble phantasm with a cool ability that won't overwrite his own sword skill with another's.

Nah, the only moment this lack of control is shown is Caliburn, which is Shirou's first time doing an actual projection in Fate. But he has enough control that he can do the dual attack with Saber by the end. There's also Heaven's Feel Shirou not losing control either with KnB or using Nine Lives, and consider his KnB are copied from Archer, they have HIS history.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Isn't he the most skilled swordsman?

 

[Zaratthustra]

Use Unlimited Blade Works and do a "Gilgamesh like spam of Swords". Don't forget that Archer doesn't have only simple swords but also their abilities.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

Isn't he the most skilled swordsman?

Kojirou is the most skilled guy in Fate apparently. But if the sword itself moves, why can't Emiya use his techniques too? I mean from what's being said the skill level doesn't matter anyway.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

That kind of brings up the question. If skill level doesn't matter then why was he unable to use Kojirou's technique?

Kojirou's technique is pretty close to a miracle, as he's replicating True Magic. True Magic is explained as anything impossible to replicate in a given era even given infinite resources and time. Even Izo who is an expert that can copy techniques with a glance can't copy it.

 

[John985]

Isn't he the most skilled swordsman?

He's not, the most skilled swordsman in Nasuverse are Musashi, Kojiro and Munenori

 

[Gemmysaur]

and consider his KnB are copied from Archer, they history.

His fight with EMIYA was what was copying the skills. They are the same person so they should have the same experience, is the world's logic.

It was specifically noted that there are things like a dead guy possessing a living guy to pass their knowledge and skill. They just didn't expect it to work that way with him and him.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

He meant Kojirou, John. But yeah, the most skilled people are the three John linked.

As for why he doesn't copy, Emiya has a set way of fighting he tends to prefer and is just used to, but he'll adapt if he sees the need or realizes it gives him a higher chance to win.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

That fear passive doesnt really matter too, when he resisted it from Avenger in HF and all servant from Tiamat chaos tide.

What level are their fear hax respectively?

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Sdanand I don't know if you can apply one verses logic to another.

 

[Zaratthustra]

He can't use Kojiro's because of his passive 'Knowledge of Respect and Harmony' is a special ability that prevents the reduction of accuracy regardless of how many times the same technique has been used on the same foe. In other words, the ability to "render one's attacks unreadable to the enemy" and also for the fact that is a technique that reaches True Magic (the second magic - 'Multi-Dimensional Refraction Phenomenon') something that should be impossible made possible by Sasaki.

 

[John985]

What level are their fear hax respectively?

Not sure about Tiamat, but Angra Mainyu can affect 5.6 billion people.

 

[Sdanand]

I just wish Rakudai's author would give us a more clear stance on how much superior Edelweiss is towards Ikki. Seeing as Ikki performed a feat where his shadow could not keep up with his movement, that would be considered FTL right? I know it's a moot point to bring this up, but scaling as "Edwelweiss > Ikki" should mean that Edelweiss is of similar speed no?

 

[Sdanand]

@Sdanand I don't know if you can apply one verses logic to another.

im not sure what you're specifically referring to. Please clarify for it is 3 Am for me.

 

[Firephoenixearl]

I just wish Rakudai's author would give us a more clear stance on how much superior Edelweiss is towards Ikki. Seeing as Ikki performed a feat where his shadow could not keep up with his movement, that would be considered FTL right? I know it's a moot point to bring this up, but scaling as "Edwelweiss > Ikki" should mean that Edelweiss is of similar speed no?

Ikki becomes = to Edelweiss a lil later.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

His fight with EMIYA was what was copying the skills. They are the same person so they should have the same experience, is the world's logic.

It was specifically noted that there are things like a dead guy possessing a living guy to pass their knowledge and skill. They just didn't expect it to work that way with him and him.

But my point is that at no moment is he overcome with this, nor by the memory of Archer's fighting experience when he can TRace KnB at the level of Archer. Is not the case for Heaven's Feel either where he just has his knowledge inside the arm. And considering his Triple Linked Crane Wing is not even the same despite going off his skill, it seems evident to me he's not blindly copying. There's no reason to believe what happens to an inexperienced Shirou using a proper projection for the first time applies to a more experienced Shirou and Archer.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

@Sdanand With hard work you can get the body control. It may apply to Rakudai but not other verses. It's a bit like saying because characters in D&D that are undead are unaffected by mind manipulation so is "insert undead character here".

 

[Sdanand]

@Sdanand With hard work you can get the body control. It may apply to Rakudai but not other verses. It's a bit like saying because characters in D&D that are undead are unaffected by mind manipulation so is "insert undead character here".

The whole point there was to illustrate the fact that full-body-control is not a skill that you need magic and or something special for. For example, if there was a hypothetical character, Bob, who creates fire and he wields a sword. Bob likes to use his fire skill and coat his sword in his flames. Emiya would not be able to recreate the fire skill, but would be able to create sword and Bob's usage of his blade outside of the flames. But seeing as we already established that Archer would be able to replicate Edelweiss' sword technique, this is a moot point.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Common qualities are indeed normally equalized or assumed to be the same unless anything says the contrary. Just how we assume any character has a soul unless we are told they don't or we assume they don't for logical reasons (they are a robot for example), even for highly realistic or grounded verses where the possibility is not even mentioned.

That skill level is not something intrinsic to the power system of rakudai or how rakudai humans work, its just pure skill. Magic Circuits, however, are unique to Nasuverse humans due to the power system and cosmology of the verse, and we wouldn't equalize the opponent as having them.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

Controlling all aspects of the body requires subcoinscious control. That can't be learnt normally. In Rakudai it can. In essence it's actually a supernatural ability that shouln"t be possible. It is not a common trait in fiction to have this through skill. That's why the logic in verse and the logic with other verses differ in this regard.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

All that really matter now is abilities rather than swordsmanship anyway.

 

[John985]

Emiya is 7-A and Edelweiss is 8-A likely low 7-C. So Ap stomp.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

There's still passive abilities to deal with. Edelweiss can also change the fate of he4 defeat in the same way Ikki did.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

In Rakudai it can, but its not a special skill only a doted few have or a special genetic trait or even related to magic, is something anyone could do if they had the determination and/or talent to polish their skill to that level. That's not really comparable to a powerset that only exists in the verse.

Still, you are free to tell us how she becomes free of her fate of losing. Especially when Servants with B rank Luck have a chance of even altering causality, but opponents like this can still be defeated.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

No it's not possible to actually be learnt because it shouldn't be possible. The verses logic for skill makes it possible. Not every verse follows this logic.

She should have better control over fate and she can't be affected by fate or causality manipulation. Amane's causality and fate manipulation and Fifty Fifty's probablility manipulation. Being a Desparado she can create her own fate.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

What Emperor is saying that while in Rakudai it's simple to do, that doesn't mean that someone from the real world (or any other verse where it isn't possible) should be able to do it, because that is impossible for them.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

If we equalize common traits like souls, I don't see why we wouldn't equalize what certain levels of skill can achieve unless there's some special reason it can't be replicated. Sufficient skill in Nasuverse makes someone like Okita break causality by making 3 sword thrusts happen at the exact same time. Prodigious skill also lets Fate pull nonsensical stuff, I don't see why this wouldn't be possible.

I meant more that Servants can overcome other Servants if they have the general advantage even when a mere B in Luck can do that much, its certainly not as versatile as Desperato stuff. But this is pretty much finding a way to not be even tapped by Emiya's close or long ranged attacks.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

She isn't affected by causality manipulation. So their ability of enforcing the causality of defeat won't work.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

Because one is assuming there is a thing that is never contradicted, the other is assuming the character can do what is literally impossible for them. The latter exemple does not equate to body control, so false equivalency.

I am not saying who will win, but assuming a character can do the biologically impossible vecause another verse can is not something verse equal allows.

 

[EmperorRorepmeThree]

I agree, that's the more clear explanation.

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Except it is not impossible for anyone in Rakudai, just really hard, and this notion is never contradicted. And I never said it equated to body control, just that immense skill resulting in absurd results also happens in Fate. Its not even an exclusive trick like magic, is just something anyone with sufficient skill can pull off.

And again, she still has to somehow not be slightly tapped through all the battle somehow, so I am not sure about her chances.

 

[Ricsi-viragosi]

And further, the "assuming souls" is done because you get stuff like real life humans staring down tier 1 eldritch horrors because they have no metaphysical minds to be corrupted, and things of that kind.

Them having a soul does not give them abilities they don't have.