-
This forum is strictly intended to be used by members of the VS Battles wiki. Please only register if you have an autoconfirmed account there, as otherwise your registration will be rejected. If you have already registered once, do not do so again, and contact Antvasima if you encounter any problems.
For instructions regarding the exact procedure to sign up to this forum, please click here. -
We need Patreon donations for this forum to have all of its running costs financially secured.
Community members who help us out will receive badges that give them several different benefits, including the removal of all advertisements in this forum, but donations from non-members are also extremely appreciated.
Please click here for further information, or here to directly visit our Patreon donations page. -
Please click here for information about a large petition to help children in need.
Duality and Conceptual Duality
- Thread starter Fixxed
- Start date
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
I specifically said unbound by Casualty. I don't remember saying interacted by others
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
If I have a character who is unbound by every casuality of the verse and Only MC can interact with him then that's not an anti feat right. Knowing only one who can affect that character is MC.
- 13,812
- 3,790
It would be a feat for the MC. Saying otherwise is the same of saying "There can be no people in fiction with feats of interacting with Type 5"
- 849
- 361
He talking about Graham my man, "Graham's true nothingness exists deeper than anything and is unbound by causality" so he is basically proposing Acausality type 5 for Graham.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
I was thinking the same thanks
.
Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
- 1,365
So Anos will be impossible to kill then
Mr._Undetected
He/Him- 459
- 145
This thread is getting further and further.
- 4,058
- 1,711
anos having power to reck transduals and type 5 acausals
RIP VSB
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Bro I will try to make the thread for Graham true nothingness free from casualty when I have the time but please don't bring the topic now it will just derail the thread. Also Graham true nothingness is completely unaffected by Venozdonua which literally has no anti feats.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Can anyone tell what are the common duality a character needs to transcend to get Transduality type 2.
I know space-time, light dark, life and death are few. What are other types
I know space-time, light dark, life and death are few. What are other types
- 13,812
- 3,790
You just need statements that they are outside/unbound/transcend all dualities, or equivalents. The number doesnt necessarily matter.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Can't we get Transduality by feats? I mean if there is no statement
- 13,812
- 3,790
I mean, yes, but thats borderline impossible to depict in fiction. And even those are also associated with statements in one way or another. There is no 1-A character here that reaches 1-A purely by feats, as an example
Sniper670
He/Him- 6,409
- 1,365
It will get rejected.
I was pushing TD arceus a few days ago on account of transcending a perfectly described duality of mind and body and it got rejected on account of the character must paradox the dualities bla bla bla feat bla bla bla
- 11,240
- 19,712
Graham's true nothingness also lacks reason, which is logic and logic seems to be far above order (based in how reason works in MG and what we've seen so far in the series), Venuz is called the Reason Destroying Sword so. Basically Venuz, Graham's true nature & MEoCD are unbound by logic as the reason doesn't apply to them, but tbh i still think that is a wank.
Last edited:
- 622
- 431
I’m curious to how you all learned these things Lmao
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Graham NEP type 2 < Graham true nothingness which is free from casualty of the verse. Also misfit in verse are unbound by order and reason, framework of the world. Order is reality in MG & Reason is technically causality & logic.
Well venozdonua until now has zero anti feats. It completely erased everything and anything. Even in Deeper layers it's working completely fine. It even erased NEP type 2 of Graham but it couldn't affect his true nothingness. Technically he is unbound by Casualty as even venozdonua couldn't interact with his true nothingness. Anos had to use his own source to absorb Graham to finally defeat him. Also Anos is a misfit who exist outside of order, Reason & framework of the world.
Well even dictionary literally states Reason is cause and logic. Also it works same in MGF
Well venozdonua until now has zero anti feats. It completely erased everything and anything. Even in Deeper layers it's working completely fine. It even erased NEP type 2 of Graham but it couldn't affect his true nothingness. Technically he is unbound by Casualty as even venozdonua couldn't interact with his true nothingness. Anos had to use his own source to absorb Graham to finally defeat him. Also Anos is a misfit who exist outside of order, Reason & framework of the world.
Well even dictionary literally states Reason is cause and logic. Also it works same in MGF
- 11,240
- 19,712
This is incorrect, as far i know, venuz can destroy his source of nothingness after which a pure nothingness remains, described as "nothingness without reason/logic". Venuzdonoa can keep destroying this pure nothingness and further reduce it to nothing, but as long as nothingness exists, Graham will continue to regenerate indefinitely. As we already know, Venuz can use conceptual attacks, but the main reason why it can destroy all things in creation is because it is able to destroy reason (Reason Destroying Sword). And by practically being unbound by reason (which as I already said Reason seems to be above even order) it is able to perform the feat of being able to destroy all things in creation and not being restricted even by cosmology itself since the reason does not apply to Venuz and also MEoCD and probably misfits like Anos and Graham that exists outside the world's framework, order and reason altogether.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
I am also saying the same. Reason is cause and logic itself. Graham true nothingness remained even after getting erased by Venozdonua.
- 11,240
- 19,712
No, were saying that Venuz couldn't interact with Graham's true nature (Which is pure nothigness described as "nothingness without reason/logic) which is incorrect as Venuzdonoa was able to destroy it and further reduce it to nothing.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Venozdonua interacted with his nothingness but his True nothingness is something which lacks even Reason & logic. Anos source is the only thing that was affecting him. Wait let me check the chapter again.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
柄をつかみ、つなぎ合わせて、彼は空間を切るようにくるりと大鎌を回転させた。
「アガンゾンを魔法具に変えたか｣
「ここにも共通点があったね。 君が破壊神アベルニューを魔王城デルゾ ゲードに変えたのとそっくりだ。 僕たちは計らずとも、 似た行動を取っ ているんだよ｣
破壊の秩序を奪った俺とは違い、 アガンゾンの秩序は残したようだがな。
「君も世界の理の外にいる。 神族から不適合者と呼ばれるぐらいにね｣
｢それがどうした?」
グラハムはいつになく嬉々とした表情を浮かべた。 まるで初めて話し相手を見つけたといったように。
「僕たちは、 どこから来たんだと思う?」
「お前と哲学を論ずるつもりはない」
滅紫に染まった魔眼にて､ 乱竄神鎌を睨む。
「いいや、これは哲学なんかじゃないよ。 世界の話、秩序の話、魔法の 話だ。 僕たちはこの世界の理の外にいる。 僕たちだけが。 どうして、こ の世界の秩序から、 その枠組みから外れることができたんだい?」
Grasping the hilt and connecting it together, he spun the scythe around as if cutting through space.
'You've turned aganzon into a magical tool?"
'We have something in common here. It is similar to how you transformed Avernew, the God of Destruction, into Delzogade, the Devil's Castle. We are acting in a similar way, even if we don't measure up."
Unlike me, who took away the order of destruction, you seem to have preserved the order of Aganzon.
"You, too, are outside the world. The gods call you a nonconformist."
"What of it?"
Graham looked more pleased than ever. It was as if he had found someone to talk to for the first time.
"Where do you think we're from?"
"I'm not going to argue philosophy with you."
He stares at Ranjaku Shinjikama with his violet eyes.
"No, this is not philosophy. This is about the world, about order, about magic. We are outside the reason of the world. We are the only ones. How could you be outside the world's order, outside its framework?"
「アガンゾンを魔法具に変えたか｣
「ここにも共通点があったね。 君が破壊神アベルニューを魔王城デルゾ ゲードに変えたのとそっくりだ。 僕たちは計らずとも、 似た行動を取っ ているんだよ｣
破壊の秩序を奪った俺とは違い、 アガンゾンの秩序は残したようだがな。
「君も世界の理の外にいる。 神族から不適合者と呼ばれるぐらいにね｣
｢それがどうした?」
グラハムはいつになく嬉々とした表情を浮かべた。 まるで初めて話し相手を見つけたといったように。
「僕たちは、 どこから来たんだと思う?」
「お前と哲学を論ずるつもりはない」
滅紫に染まった魔眼にて､ 乱竄神鎌を睨む。
「いいや、これは哲学なんかじゃないよ。 世界の話、秩序の話、魔法の 話だ。 僕たちはこの世界の理の外にいる。 僕たちだけが。 どうして、こ の世界の秩序から、 その枠組みから外れることができたんだい?」
Grasping the hilt and connecting it together, he spun the scythe around as if cutting through space.
'You've turned aganzon into a magical tool?"
'We have something in common here. It is similar to how you transformed Avernew, the God of Destruction, into Delzogade, the Devil's Castle. We are acting in a similar way, even if we don't measure up."
Unlike me, who took away the order of destruction, you seem to have preserved the order of Aganzon.
"You, too, are outside the world. The gods call you a nonconformist."
"What of it?"
Graham looked more pleased than ever. It was as if he had found someone to talk to for the first time.
"Where do you think we're from?"
"I'm not going to argue philosophy with you."
He stares at Ranjaku Shinjikama with his violet eyes.
"No, this is not philosophy. This is about the world, about order, about magic. We are outside the reason of the world. We are the only ones. How could you be outside the world's order, outside its framework?"
I see Graham/misfits are already stated to be free from Reason.
目の前に溢れかえった紫電を､ ヴェヌズドノアで突き破り、 そのまま 奴の心臓を貫き、 根源を刺し滅ぼす。
緋電紅雷さえも溢れ出さず、 奴の命は停止する｡
「虚無だからといって滅ぼせぬと思ったか」
無である奴の根源は、 滅びることはない。 だが､理滅剣の前では、あらゆる理が意味をなさない。
確かにその根源は滅び去った。
先程のように無のままの奴が生きているということもない。
「滅ぼしたからといって、それが永遠だと思うかい?」
響いた声は、俺の背後から。 姿形は見えず､ただ乱竄神鎌ベフェヌグズドグマだけが、 浮かび上が っている。
さながら、 そこにいる何者かが持ち上げているかのように。
先程の虚無とは違うな。
I break through the purple electricity that overflows in front of me with venuzdonor and go straight through his heart, stabbing and destroying the root of it.
Not even the Scarlet Electric Red Lightning overflows and his life comes to a halt.
"Did you think you couldn't destroy him just because he is emptiness?"
The root of him who is nothing will not be destroyed.
But in the presence of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless.
Indeed, its roots have perished.
Nor is he who remains nothing, as he was earlier, still alive.
"Do you think that just because you have destroyed it, it is eternal?"
The voice came from behind me. No form could be seen, only the fiery scythe, Befenugzdogma, was floating in the air.
It was as if something there was lifting it up.
It is different from the emptiness we saw earlier.
「破壊神アベルニューの権能を宿した理滅剣ヴェヌズドノア。 その理不 尽な力を持ってしても、 僕の虚無を永遠に滅ぼすことはできないみたい 「だね」
ヴェヌズドノアの刃から逃れた奴の上半身が､うっすらと消えてい き、 虚無へ変わった。
なにもない。
微量な魔力さえも感じぬそこに、 確かに奴はいる。
「滅ぼされたものは無に帰すのが、 この世の秩序だ。 理滅剣の前では、 あらゆる理が意味をなさず、 万物万象が滅びる。 その効果が働くのは対 象が滅びるまでといったところかな?」
周囲の虚無から声だけが響く。
「だけど、 滅びた後のなにもない無が、 理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、 僕 その根源の本来の姿だ」
理滅剣は、確かに奴の虚無を滅ぼした。
つまり、無に帰したのだ。
しかし、 その刃から逃れさえすれば、 その無は再び奴を形成するとい うことか。
「理滅剣の力を行使し続ければ、 僕を滅ぼし続けられるだろうけどね。 だけど、その魔剣は形を永続的に保つことはできないだろう? ここが 君の魔王城でないなら、尚更だよ」
確かにな。
ヴェヌズドノアには制限時間がある。
理滅剣にて、 奴の虚無の理を永遠に滅ぼし続けることはできぬ。 いかな魔法を使おうと、 秩序というのはやがて本来の形に戻るもの だ。
刃を納めれば、 理が元に戻り、 そこに残された無がグラハムという形 を取り、再び動き出す。
"Venuzdonor, the sword of destruction that possesses the power of Averniou, the god of destruction. It seems that even with its unreasonable power, it cannot destroy my emptiness forever."
The upper half of the guy's body, which had escaped Venuzdnore's blade, disappeared in a whimper and turned into emptiness.
Nothing.
There was nothing, not even a trace of magic, but he was there.
"What is destroyed returns to nothing, and that is the order of the world. In the face of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless, and all things perish. The effect works until the object is destroyed?"
Only a voice echoed from the surrounding emptiness.
"But the nothingness after the destruction, the emptiness without even reason, is the true form of the source of my being."
The Rishonen Sword has indeed destroyed his emptiness.
In other words, it returned him to nothing.
But does that mean that as long as he escapes that blade, that nothingness will form him again?
"If you continue to use the power of the Sword of Destruction, you will continue to destroy me, but the sword will not be able to change its form. But the sword can't keep its shape permanently, can it? Especially if this is not your Demon King's castle."
Indeed.
Venuzdonor has a time limit.
The sword of destruction cannot destroy the truth of his emptiness forever.
No matter what magic we use, order will eventually return to its original form.
Once the blade is retracted, the reason is restored, and the nothingness left in it takes the form of graham and begins to move again.
緋電紅雷さえも溢れ出さず、 奴の命は停止する｡
「虚無だからといって滅ぼせぬと思ったか」
無である奴の根源は、 滅びることはない。 だが､理滅剣の前では、あらゆる理が意味をなさない。
確かにその根源は滅び去った。
先程のように無のままの奴が生きているということもない。
「滅ぼしたからといって、それが永遠だと思うかい?」
響いた声は、俺の背後から。 姿形は見えず､ただ乱竄神鎌ベフェヌグズドグマだけが、 浮かび上が っている。
さながら、 そこにいる何者かが持ち上げているかのように。
先程の虚無とは違うな。
I break through the purple electricity that overflows in front of me with venuzdonor and go straight through his heart, stabbing and destroying the root of it.
Not even the Scarlet Electric Red Lightning overflows and his life comes to a halt.
"Did you think you couldn't destroy him just because he is emptiness?"
The root of him who is nothing will not be destroyed.
But in the presence of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless.
Indeed, its roots have perished.
Nor is he who remains nothing, as he was earlier, still alive.
"Do you think that just because you have destroyed it, it is eternal?"
The voice came from behind me. No form could be seen, only the fiery scythe, Befenugzdogma, was floating in the air.
It was as if something there was lifting it up.
It is different from the emptiness we saw earlier.
「破壊神アベルニューの権能を宿した理滅剣ヴェヌズドノア。 その理不 尽な力を持ってしても、 僕の虚無を永遠に滅ぼすことはできないみたい 「だね」
ヴェヌズドノアの刃から逃れた奴の上半身が､うっすらと消えてい き、 虚無へ変わった。
なにもない。
微量な魔力さえも感じぬそこに、 確かに奴はいる。
「滅ぼされたものは無に帰すのが、 この世の秩序だ。 理滅剣の前では、 あらゆる理が意味をなさず、 万物万象が滅びる。 その効果が働くのは対 象が滅びるまでといったところかな?」
周囲の虚無から声だけが響く。
「だけど、 滅びた後のなにもない無が、 理さえ伴わない虚無こそが、 僕 その根源の本来の姿だ」
理滅剣は、確かに奴の虚無を滅ぼした。
つまり、無に帰したのだ。
しかし、 その刃から逃れさえすれば、 その無は再び奴を形成するとい うことか。
「理滅剣の力を行使し続ければ、 僕を滅ぼし続けられるだろうけどね。 だけど、その魔剣は形を永続的に保つことはできないだろう? ここが 君の魔王城でないなら、尚更だよ」
確かにな。
ヴェヌズドノアには制限時間がある。
理滅剣にて、 奴の虚無の理を永遠に滅ぼし続けることはできぬ。 いかな魔法を使おうと、 秩序というのはやがて本来の形に戻るもの だ。
刃を納めれば、 理が元に戻り、 そこに残された無がグラハムという形 を取り、再び動き出す。
"Venuzdonor, the sword of destruction that possesses the power of Averniou, the god of destruction. It seems that even with its unreasonable power, it cannot destroy my emptiness forever."
The upper half of the guy's body, which had escaped Venuzdnore's blade, disappeared in a whimper and turned into emptiness.
Nothing.
There was nothing, not even a trace of magic, but he was there.
"What is destroyed returns to nothing, and that is the order of the world. In the face of the sword of reason and destruction, all reason is meaningless, and all things perish. The effect works until the object is destroyed?"
Only a voice echoed from the surrounding emptiness.
"But the nothingness after the destruction, the emptiness without even reason, is the true form of the source of my being."
The Rishonen Sword has indeed destroyed his emptiness.
In other words, it returned him to nothing.
But does that mean that as long as he escapes that blade, that nothingness will form him again?
"If you continue to use the power of the Sword of Destruction, you will continue to destroy me, but the sword will not be able to change its form. But the sword can't keep its shape permanently, can it? Especially if this is not your Demon King's castle."
Indeed.
Venuzdonor has a time limit.
The sword of destruction cannot destroy the truth of his emptiness forever.
No matter what magic we use, order will eventually return to its original form.
Once the blade is retracted, the reason is restored, and the nothingness left in it takes the form of graham and begins to move again.
Venozdonua even destroyed that. Yeah makes sense
@Dereck03 i get it now what you meant.
- 13,812
- 3,790
Even after Venuzdonoa erased his nothingness, he could still speak to Anos, implying that there was a further nothingness that not even Venuz could affect, though non-combat applicable.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Yeah that was i referring also didn't he used All possibilities later he got destroyed by Venozdonua?
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Yeah translation is big problem for MG. For now we can only wait for Jnovels to translate LN.
- 11,240
- 19,712
I still wonder what goes on inside Anos' source that keeps destroying graham's nothingness eternally. Because iirc Graham said that the more his nothingness was destroyed, the more he returned to his original nothingness or something like that.
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
EldemadeDityjon
He/Him- 16,835
- 12,522
Well if we take Silver Sea thing Possibly argue for Acausality type 4 for everyone from militia world
- 11,240
- 19,712
No, since misfits exist outside of both order (Laws and Concepts) and reason (Logic) and not anyone outside of Maou exists outside of such a system.
- 849
- 361
That's messed up tbh, I am already "nothing" but the more you destroy me, the more I am moving towards more "nothing"?
Kinda confusing and dosent give anything without proper context.
- 11,240
- 19,712
I can't tell you since I don't remember in which chapter Graham said it and how it was the correct wording, but yeah Graham was already nothing, but the more he was destroyed, that is to say, the more nothing he became, the more he became impossible to affect until he reached his true nothingness.
- 13,812
- 3,790
Just to help illustrate, Anos source is destruction, so the more you damage him the stronger he becomes, potentially up to infinite. In Graham case, its the same but with nothingness
