the amount of staff thatve been dmed with barely no staff input is wild
Indeed, much remains to be added.
The statement in question never specified that it is talking about the observable universe
if the universe keeps expanding than it isn't infinite
show this
Planets on the edge of the universe still have light tho, also the universe is stated to have an center
The contradiction in the anime also exists in the manga
It shows a place littered in stars and the daizenshuu never calls it the “observable” universe thats the term we gave if you wanna go with the technically official name it would be “galaxy illuminations” or something similar to that
I see but does it seem fine so far the counters have been addressed
So you didn't agreed or disagreed with anything yet?
none of this is relevant to what i said
and i was saying how the "illuminations" being the thing that expands is never said anywhere, it always uses the term "universe" in general, it never specifies any part in specific
no because Earth is said to be at the center of the universe, as in in general, the statement never says anything about it being on a supossed "iluminates" part or anything like that
Earth is at the edge of the universe, and there is no darkness and the universe has a center, if you bring up the separation of "iluminated" and "darkness" just know that the statement in question never specifies, so to say that it is referring to that is headcanon
center and edge, that is the contradiction, the anime only has more contradictions to moot
cannon cosmology thread, make one for toei later after this one concludes
No, it's only contradicted if you look at it in an inconsistent way.
I agree, I think it's not only contradicted, but it's complete headcanon.
Why are they secondary canon? Also you're steelmaning your own interpretation when it doesn't inherently contradict any of this information.
you didn't addressed my point, i pointed a contradiction, explain why it isn't a contradiction
this is an accepted thing, the series itself always has priority over anything that just complements it, this is why WoG is secondary, and so are guides,
what interpretation?
so you agree with the point then?
The scans in question:
I will still bring the infinite Universe to Toei
Thank you I think this explanation is something even a 5 year old can graspThe scans in question:
"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives"
THIS TELLS US THAT THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE, AND THAT IT HAPPENS TO CONTAIN BOTH LIGHT AND DARKNESS
"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."
THIS SCAN, WHICH IS LITERALLY IN THE SAME DOUBLE PAGE AS THE OTHER ONE, GIVES CONTEXT TO IT. IT GIVES CONTEXT TO THE INFINITE UNIVERSE BEING CONSISTED OF BOTH AN INFINITELY EXPANDING SECTION CONSISTING OF LIGHT: 'Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years..'
AND A SECTION BEYOND THE INFINITELY EXPANDING LIGHT, COMPRISED OF DARKNESS THAT IS IN ITSELF INFINITE: '..Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach.' - 'An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives'
Both of the scans fundamentally build off each other
And this is where the problem from your argument against them comes, Omega. You refuse to add 2 and 2 together, and that is the reason why you've been arguing in circles since this thread has started.
You keep going on and on about the universe having an edge, but that's not a contradiction! Because the scans verbatim speak of the Living World being comprised of both an infinitely expanding section, while being infinite in it's entirety. But do you take these non-contradicting statements, and logically apply them to the show?
No! You force a non-existent contradiction yourself, claiming that the Universe contains an edge therefore it can't be infinite when it's literally explained that that is not the case, and that any edge would refer to the infinitely expanding section of the universe. The fact that you haven't budged on this topic even when presented with these facts in nearly 2 pages is extremely illogical and is why I have stopped responding in this thread.
The Macrocosm map won't be needed in this wiki for much longer, that much is true. Because it should be replaced with High 3-A Universal structures.
And please, stop going around in circles already.
WoG is even strictier on this site, most of the time we dismiss it unless it is heavely implied in the main cannon itself, this is not just db mind you, but every verse on this wiki
says who on that part?
i don't how that is relevant here but okay
see? this is what i wanted, people kept using an unrelated quote to prove that only the light part was described as expanding, this one is betterThe scans in question:
"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives"
THIS TELLS US THAT THE UNIVERSE IS INFINITE, AND THAT IT HAPPENS TO CONTAIN BOTH LIGHT AND DARKNESS
"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach."
THIS SCAN, WHICH IS LITERALLY IN THE SAME DOUBLE PAGE AS THE OTHER ONE, GIVES CONTEXT TO IT. IT GIVES CONTEXT TO THE INFINITE UNIVERSE BEING CONSISTED OF BOTH AN INFINITELY EXPANDING SECTION CONSISTING OF LIGHT: 'Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years..'
AND A SECTION BEYOND THE INFINITELY EXPANDING LIGHT, COMPRISED OF DARKNESS THAT IS IN ITSELF INFINITE: '..Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach.' - 'An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives'
Both of the scans fundamentally build off each other
nope, it is just that people didn't brought that up and, for some reason, linked me an unreleated page, lol
here is the thing, the statement in question does not refer to any specific part of the universe, if you want to say that she was refering to just an specific part, you would need to show evidence of the show for it since that is the main cannon, we don't use secondary cannon to support an specific interpretation of a main cannon statement without evidence from said main statement, and even then since bulma was talking about that in relation to the scan for the super dragon balls, which scatter through both universe 7 and 6, she must mean the entire universe or else, if the universe was infinite, the position wouldn't matter for the scan since it would be the same no matter where she was
well i am pretty sure i did, at least i remember doing it
we shall see, for the record, i can see more evidence for it in the toei continuity, but i didn't said anything for it since it is an cannon cosmology thread
i can say the same to everyone else
do it, i would love it
no since this thread is a continuation of an cannon cosmology thread, being a staff thread or not is not the problem, seriosly if you guys want a toei cosmology thread for high 3-A stuff just make one lol
It's not even a situation where the source material is contradicted, it's just the interpretation that it's a literal display of the universes and how they look is disproven by the lore. The view in DBS and the lore are not contradictory inherently at all, it's just you're refusing to accept there's a way to read this where you take ALL the evidence into account, instead of calling "retcon" whenever it doesn't match your agenda
No, I'm saying I disagree that they're "bubble universes," I agree with the currently held view about the cosmology.
the show itself has priority over anything else complementing it, that is how the wiki treats it, the lore introduced in super anime retconed the earlier macrocosm map lore and the "universe surrounded by darkness" stuff, as we can clearly not see neither when we see the universes from outside and statements made in super
yes they are, one in showing a completely different thing from the other
because this said "way" is not true to what the statements and visuals are saying/showing
if it contradicts the guide, we say that it was retconed since the series gets priority
when did anyone ever said that they are following the "bubble universes" theory here?
Again, not inherently. They didn't straight up say it wasn't true, there is more room for interpretation than you're saying there is.
Statements don't contradict the previous cosmology, only the visuals here
they say they are the edge of the universe and that it has an center, not specifying any part of it while doing so
"we are on the edge of the universe" "we have to go to the center of the universe for a full scan" plus the entire plot of bulma wanting to go to the center of the universe was to be able to scan all of it, which wouldn't matter if the universe was infinite since the distance would be the same regardless
I don't think that contradicts any previous statements
What? What do you mean we’d have to show more evidence if there’s stated to be a light and darkness and the light of the universe is finite wheres the contradiction? I don’t see what you’re implying the sdb’s are also implied to only go to the living universe as they never go to the Kaioshin realm or afterlife unless you want to make that claim
this is not a line, it is a full 3 dimensional space, to have a center would imply that there is an border where it ends for it to have a center, a infinite line would not have a center
she never is tho? jaco never refutes anything in regarding of the universe having an center or and edge, he only ever says that getting to the center is very difficult
she is reliable as one of the smartest characters in db
just click on the "reply" on the bottom right and then do it again for each post you will respondfor the multi post stuff, I don't know how to respond to multiple messages at once
the fact that the universe in general is said to have an edge and center?
that is not relevant to my point
now with that change made, we can discuss it now, seriosly what took you so long dude lol
I don’t see why the finite part of the universe wouldn’t have an edge and center but luckily the darkness doesn’t
She doesn't necessarily know about the size of the universe as she's never traversed it fully and she would just be speaking from theories she has.
how many times will i have to repeat this? the statement in question never says anything about the "edge" and "center" only being refering to a "finite" part, it is talking about the universe in general
says who that they don't go to these realms? we simply don't have enough information on them to say that they only go to a specific part of the universe
don't see how both of those example matter here
because it is a universe
prove that? you only gave examples of alternate names for the realms themselves, show me any part in the series where the "iluminated part" of the universe was called "universe"
secondary cannon cannot be used to force a specific interpretation of a main cannon statement, it needs to be supported by the series itself in this case, which the said statement doesn't give, that is how secondary cannon works
again, i am just using secondary cannon as how it is used
I showed scans proving that the term universe or cosmos can be referring to things within Universe 7 and that even the Living Universe is called The Universe at times and that you Saying universe in a “general” term makes no sense and you haven’t backed up any evidence im just showing your faulty logic and I showed evidence backed up by scans while you have your own interpretation which has no basis besides trying to prove there’s a contradiction that doesn’t exist and im confused wdym you’re using secondary canon as it’s used?
welp, we wait, there is nothing else to do aside from that
I guess so
I don’t see why it’d matter but are you referring to the Anime depiction and the macrocosm map?
Yes
The macrocosm map why?
