Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3

[Huesito88]

The macrocosm map why?

Progression and "consistency" amongst them.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

It's on the third CRT on the sixth page.

Honestly, I think it would have been easier to have made a CRT for every Cosmology thing instead of everything all at once, this seems like an endless discussion.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

It's on the third CRT on the sixth page.

Honestly, I think it would have been easier to have made a CRT for every Cosmology thing instead of everything all at once, this seems like an endless discussion.

The discussion pretty much is done staff input Is needed but it seems like they don’t wanna talk in here

 

[Omegabronic]

It's on the third CRT on the sixth page.

Honestly, I think it would have been easier to have made a CRT for every Cosmology thing instead of everything all at once, this seems like an endless discussion.

we had summaries for the original topic on the earlier thread for staff, but things on, other things happened, and now were are here, in the bottom

 

[Jinsama]

I will still bring the infinite Universe to Toei

good luck bro .. i dont really have the patience anymore for that stuff, lol.

Bulma isnt even earths martest science and she knows less than someone like Jaco ... no idea why Bulmas statement is a debunk.

thats why i stick to math based verse, 1-2 lines are more than enough to debunk the butchering of math.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

good luck bro .. i dont really have the patience anymore for that stuff, lol.

Bulma isnt even earths martest science and she knows less than someone like Jaco ... no idea why Bulmas statement is a debunk.

thats why i stick to math based verse, 1-2 lines are more than enough to debunk the butchering of math.

Really, using Bulma as an argument is something very crude, since she doesn't even know where such a thing is, not even Jaco who travels through the galaxies knows how to find the center of the Universe, now imagine using the Bulma's statement to disprove the Universe being infinite?

I completely agree with you, before I used the arguments for four Galaxies from DB, which are actually sectors looked at by the Kaioshins, now I use Bulma, my god.

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Bulma isnt even earths martest science and she knows less than someone like Jaco ... no idea why Bulmas statement is a debunk.

because bulma confirms that they live on the edge of the universe and jaco states it would take too long to reach the centre, it was a major plot point in the anime and manga for finding the sdb

 

[Omegabronic]

Bulma isnt even earths martest science and she knows less than someone like Jaco ... no idea why Bulmas statement is a debunk.

excuse me?

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

excuse me?

the fact jaco only states the centre is too far away and that means bulma is wrong is funny to me

 

[Omegabronic]

the fact jaco only states the centre is too far away and that means bulma is wrong is funny to me

yeah like, he never proved her wrong in anything lol

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Ain’t no way.. y’all still mentioning the edge and center when 2 detailed summaries were sent and one that was literally color coded and largened to address 2 of the main parts of the living universe showing a space of darkness and light and debunking the notion of universe in a general term whatever

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

Ain’t no way.. y’all still mentioning the edge and center when 2 detailed summaries were sent and one that was literally color coded and largened to address 2 of the main parts of the living universe showing a space of darkness and light and debunking the notion of universe in a general term whatever

last i checked, it only debunked the centre part not the edge which was my point

 

[Omegabronic]

Ain’t no way.. y’all still mentioning the edge and center when 2 detailed summaries were sent and one that was literally color coded and largened to address 2 of the main parts of the living universe showing a space of darkness and light and debunking the notion of universe in a general term whatever

and then there were debunks to that as well, neither you or me has the authority to say what will be accepted or not, so please stop saying "this was debunked" since that doesn't help in anything at all

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

last i checked, it only debunked the centre part not the edge which was my point

How does it not debunk the edge? A finite area can still have a center and edge just not an infinite area

 

[Lord_Farquaad69420]

How does it not debunk the edge? A finite area can still have a center and edge just not an infinite area

wtf you can't be living on the edge of infinity can you, if it has an edge and a centre it means there must be a finite distance between it

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

wtf you can't be living on the edge of infinity can you, if it has an edge and a centre it means there must be a finite distance between it

My guy have you not been reading this crt there’s 2 parts of the universe (the light) the space beyond which is darkness which is why the edge and center arguments annoy me since I’m not claiming an infinity has an edge

 

[OculoOmnibus]

When it comes to the mainline Dragon Ball cosmology, it can get really, really confusing. I myself had to do a lot of research just to see exactly how the universe even functioned because I couldn't tell if the Goku-Beerus clash in the Battle of Gods arc feat was simply just a Universe level feat.

Spacing and Structure​

So for starters we have the Daizenshuu model of what one of the twelve universes look like, as this was created by Akira Toriyama himself.

• (Toriyama illustration)
  
  
• (Translated version and upscaled)
  
  

I will be using this as a reference to what one of the universes looks like, since it was actually made by Toriyama and has been reinforced by many of the main showrunners and writers (such as Takao Koyama). Toei has made a different looking universe structure in the Dragon Ball Super anime, but it really doesn't matter what it looks like since the illustration is merely just a way to visualize it. What's more important is the contents of the universe.

Living Realm / Mortal Universe​

There are at least three different "realms", or planes of existence in one of these universes.

• There's the mortal universe first. Daizenshuu 4 says it's an endless, expansive space, so this by default should mean the universe is at least infinite.
  
  
• However, there is a small problem. In the anime of Dragon Ball Super, it states that there's an edge to the universe.
  
  
• Bulma also states that they are at the "edge" of the universe in the manga.
  
  

Now does this mean that the living universe's size is being retconned? Is this just the Daizenshuu books stating hyperbole? Well, no. I'll explain below when I talk about the other sections of the universe.

Heavenly Realm / Otherworld​

The next part of the universe is the Heavenly Realm, or "Otherworld", which is the realm that Heaven, the four planets of the Kais and Enma/Yemma's check in station is located. Both Heaven and Otherworld are two different things. Heaven is the actual planet where the souls of the dead stay, and Otherworld/Heavenly realm is the entire plane of existence they live on. Heaven is stated to be "as wide as the universe itself", which may seem completely exaggerated based on the visualized universe Toriyama drew, however I will get to why that is.

• Heaven (Daizenshuu 4)
  
  
• 
  
  
  
• (Translated from above)
  
  

For anyone who took an astronomy class, you may know that the observable universe in real life is not infinite in size, it's roughly about 46 billion light years wide. When it comes to Dragon Ball, the only possible explanation for both these statements to co-exist and not have any retcons is if the observable universe (as in the galaxies and stars in the universe) are only finite in size, but the plane of existence that the living people reside in is infinite. It can be backed up with how you simply cannot just "fly" all the way to Otherworld as it is a whole different plane of existence, and characters are only actually able to get there by using special spirit techniques such as Instant Transmission or Kai Kai which seems to let you teleport across dimensions (though not the Time Chamber or anywhere sealed off from the universe).

Oh also, time flows differently between the Living World and Otherworld as confirmed by Goku in the Buu saga, which should be enough proof they're two different space-time continuums when it comes to fictional dimension tiering.

Kaioshin Realm​

Now that we have two universe sized structures out of the way, we go on to the last section of the universe which is the Supreme Kai/Kaioshin Realm. This is the separate space of the universe the Supreme Kais reside in to watch over all of life.

• In the Daizenshuu books, it is stated to be 1/10th the size of both the Living Universe and Otherworld combined. As we know in math, ∞/10 is still just infinity. This would also mean that the Kaioshin Realm is an infinitely sized plane of existence as well.
  
  

So overall, this would mean that there are at minimum, three space-time continuums when it comes to one universe. There are twelve universes in total, and some even have similar causalities such as Universe 6 and Universe 7 being extremely similar in history yet diverging in some aspects (such as Planet Sadala not being abandoned for Planet Vegeta)

Miscellaneous Realms​

Now there are other places stated in Daizenshuu such as the "Enma Realm" and the Demon Realm, but based on what we know these are likely part of Otherworld and the Living Universe respectively. If anyone has any proof of these two being separate planes of existence then I would like to see the evidence.

• The Time Chamber is about the size of Earth, stated by Goku when him and Gohan trained in it in the Cell arc.
  
  
• A Daizenshuu 4 page stating the formation of the universe. Keep in mind that the "Galaxies" are more correctly just quadrants, as Jaco does state in the Dragon Ball Super manga that there are countless amounts of galaxies in the universe, not really a retcon but just better stated as to what the "four galaxies" actually are.
  
  

Other Places in the Multiverse​

I'll also talk about Zeno's Realm and the Null Realm (also known as "World of Void"), since both seem to be existing entirely outside the Multiverse structure itself as said in the anime.

• We see with Zeno's Realm, it has universes floating around the palace. Now I don't know exactly how big the Zeno World is so I won't factor this into the size of the multiverse, but I will say that based on it's appearance, it seems to be egregiously larger than the already above infinite sized universes.
  
  
• But we do know how large the Null Realm is, as it's stated to be "infinite nothingness" and isolated outside the multiverse. Again, this world is stated to have no time or space, reinforcing what I said earlier about the different planes of existence. The realm seems to also exist in every alternate timeline as well.
  
  

Timelines​

But here comes a tricky part: There are multiple timelines that can be created when travelling through time. The way time works in Dragon Ball is far different than real life, since the universal structure is way larger and different than most modern theories of the multiverse.

Time Travel in Dragon Ball​

Now we know how they're created: You alter the past and the time axis spins into a whole different stream of events.

In the Black arc, new timelines are created by both Trunks and Zamasu due to actions that alter the past. There are six timelines as of now based on the amount of rings Gowasu has. This was formerly seven before Future Zeno erased the entirety of Trunks' timeline.

Scaling of Timelines​

Does this mean that the 4D scaling I mentioned earlier for the universes is invalidated because the new timelines contain the entire existence of the Dragon World within them? Does this mean that this puts characters like Zeno up to Multiversal+ because the concept of time is above the structure of space-time continuums in multiverse theory? Nope, not at all.

Assuming there are at least 12 universes, each with their three planes of existence, this would mean that there are at least 36 different space-time continuums, and adding the Null Realm makes this 37. As said above I won't factor in Zeno's Realm as I can't find any material that verbally tells us it's size, for all we know they could just be decorations made by the Grand Priest.

In total, we know that there are at minimum, 222 space-time continuums in the mainline Dragon Ball canon. If we assume that some of these timelines never experienced Zeno erasing the other six universe, this number could jump up to 500+. This means that the Dragon Ball cosmology stays mostly around Low Multiverse level when it comes to power scaling.

Feat Examples​

With this cosmology revision I stated above, here is what the appropriate scaling for some major feats in Dragon Ball Super should really be.

• Goku-Beerus Universe Destroying Clash - Low Multiverse level
• Infinite Zamasu's existence spreading across timelines - At least Low Multiverse level
• Future Zeno erasing the entirety of Trunks' timeline - At least Low Multiverse level

Most of the reference material in this thread is from the Daizenshuu books or the actual anime/manga itself. There are other Dragon Ball guidebooks I reference as well since most of them were approved by Toriyama.

If there are any arguments for scaling Dragon Ball any higher I would like to hear them, though I am not very active on the forums much due to my personal life getting in the way (I debunked some Sonic scaling once and I haven't checked any replies).

 

[Omegabronic]

When it comes to the mainline Dragon Ball cosmology, it can get really, really confusing. I myself had to do a lot of research just to see exactly how the universe even functioned because I couldn't tell if the Goku-Beerus clash in the Battle of Gods arc feat was simply just a Universe level feat.

Spacing and Structure​

So for starters we have the Daizenshuu model of what one of the twelve universes look like, as this was created by Akira Toriyama himself.

• (Toriyama illustration)
  
  
• (Translated version and upscaled)
  
  

I will be using this as a reference to what one of the universes looks like, since it was actually made by Toriyama and has been reinforced by many of the main showrunners and writers (such as Takao Koyama). Toei has made a different looking universe structure in the Dragon Ball Super anime, but it really doesn't matter what it looks like since the illustration is merely just a way to visualize it. What's more important is the contents of the universe.

Living Realm / Mortal Universe​

There are at least three different "realms", or planes of existence in one of these universes.

• There's the mortal universe first. Daizenshuu 4 says it's an endless, expansive space, so this by default should mean the universe is at least infinite.
  
  
• However, there is a small problem. In the anime of Dragon Ball Super, it states that there's an edge to the universe.
  
  
• Bulma also states that they are at the "edge" of the universe in the manga.
  
  

Now does this mean that the living universe's size is being retconned? Is this just the Daizenshuu books stating hyperbole? Well, no. I'll explain below when I talk about the other sections of the universe.

Heavenly Realm / Otherworld​

The next part of the universe is the Heavenly Realm, or "Otherworld", which is the realm that Heaven, the four planets of the Kais and Enma/Yemma's check in station is located. Both Heaven and Otherworld are two different things. Heaven is the actual planet where the souls of the dead stay, and Otherworld/Heavenly realm is the entire plane of existence they live on. Heaven is stated to be "as wide as the universe itself", which may seem completely exaggerated based on the visualized universe Toriyama drew, however I will get to why that is.

• Heaven (Daizenshuu 4)
  
  
• 
  
  
  
• (Translated from above)
  
  

For anyone who took an astronomy class, you may know that the observable universe in real life is not infinite in size, it's roughly about 46 billion light years wide. When it comes to Dragon Ball, the only possible explanation for both these statements to co-exist and not have any retcons is if the observable universe (as in the galaxies and stars in the universe) are only finite in size, but the plane of existence that the living people reside in is infinite. It can be backed up with how you simply cannot just "fly" all the way to Otherworld as it is a whole different plane of existence, and characters are only actually able to get there by using special spirit techniques such as Instant Transmission or Kai Kai which seems to let you teleport across dimensions (though not the Time Chamber or anywhere sealed off from the universe).

Oh also, time flows differently between the Living World and Otherworld as confirmed by Goku in the Buu saga, which should be enough proof they're two different space-time continuums when it comes to fictional dimension tiering.

Kaioshin Realm​

Now that we have two universe sized structures out of the way, we go on to the last section of the universe which is the Supreme Kai/Kaioshin Realm. This is the separate space of the universe the Supreme Kais reside in to watch over all of life.

• In the Daizenshuu books, it is stated to be 1/10th the size of both the Living Universe and Otherworld combined. As we know in math, ∞/10 is still just infinity. This would also mean that the Kaioshin Realm is an infinitely sized plane of existence as well.
  
  

So overall, this would mean that there are at minimum, three space-time continuums when it comes to one universe. There are twelve universes in total, and some even have similar causalities such as Universe 6 and Universe 7 being extremely similar in history yet diverging in some aspects (such as Planet Sadala not being abandoned for Planet Vegeta)

Miscellaneous Realms​

Now there are other places stated in Daizenshuu such as the "Enma Realm" and the Demon Realm, but based on what we know these are likely part of Otherworld and the Living Universe respectively. If anyone has any proof of these two being separate planes of existence then I would like to see the evidence.

• The Time Chamber is about the size of Earth, stated by Goku when him and Gohan trained in it in the Cell arc.
  
  
• A Daizenshuu 4 page stating the formation of the universe. Keep in mind that the "Galaxies" are more correctly just quadrants, as Jaco does state in the Dragon Ball Super manga that there are countless amounts of galaxies in the universe, not really a retcon but just better stated as to what the "four galaxies" actually are.
  
  

Other Places in the Multiverse​

I'll also talk about Zeno's Realm and the Null Realm (also known as "World of Void"), since both seem to be existing entirely outside the Multiverse structure itself as said in the anime.

• We see with Zeno's Realm, it has universes floating around the palace. Now I don't know exactly how big the Zeno World is so I won't factor this into the size of the multiverse, but I will say that based on it's appearance, it seems to be egregiously larger than the already above infinite sized universes.
  
  
• But we do know how large the Null Realm is, as it's stated to be "infinite nothingness" and isolated outside the multiverse. Again, this world is stated to have no time or space, reinforcing what I said earlier about the different planes of existence. The realm seems to also exist in every alternate timeline as well.
  
  

Timelines​

But here comes a tricky part: There are multiple timelines that can be created when travelling through time. The way time works in Dragon Ball is far different than real life, since the universal structure is way larger and different than most modern theories of the multiverse.

Time Travel in Dragon Ball​

Now we know how they're created: You alter the past and the time axis spins into a whole different stream of events.

In the Black arc, new timelines are created by both Trunks and Zamasu due to actions that alter the past. There are six timelines as of now based on the amount of rings Gowasu has. This was formerly seven before Future Zeno erased the entirety of Trunks' timeline.

Scaling of Timelines​

Does this mean that the 4D scaling I mentioned earlier for the universes is invalidated because the new timelines contain the entire existence of the Dragon World within them? Does this mean that this puts characters like Zeno up to Multiversal+ because the concept of time is above the structure of space-time continuums in multiverse theory? Nope, not at all.

Assuming there are at least 12 universes, each with their three planes of existence, this would mean that there are at least 36 different space-time continuums, and adding the Null Realm makes this 37. As said above I won't factor in Zeno's Realm as I can't find any material that verbally tells us it's size, for all we know they could just be decorations made by the Grand Priest.

In total, we know that there are at minimum, 222 space-time continuums in the mainline Dragon Ball canon. If we assume that some of these timelines never experienced Zeno erasing the other six universe, this number could jump up to 500+. This means that the Dragon Ball cosmology stays mostly around Low Multiverse level when it comes to power scaling.

Feat Examples​

With this cosmology revision I stated above, here is what the appropriate scaling for some major feats in Dragon Ball Super should really be.

• Goku-Beerus Universe Destroying Clash - Low Multiverse level
• Infinite Zamasu's existence spreading across timelines - At least Low Multiverse level
• Future Zeno erasing the entirety of Trunks' timeline - At least Low Multiverse level

Most of the reference material in this thread is from the Daizenshuu books or the actual anime/manga itself. There are other Dragon Ball guidebooks I reference as well since most of them were approved by Toriyama.

If there are any arguments for scaling Dragon Ball any higher I would like to hear them, though I am not very active on the forums much due to my personal life getting in the way (I debunked some Sonic scaling once and I haven't checked any replies).

first off, leave the "realms are different space times" stuff out, it was already rejected numerous times in past threads and even debated in the other parts of this thread, otherworld not having time is contradicted numerous times in the series, and we don't treat timeless realms as tier 2 structures without further context, also the null realm was stated to be "eternal" in the original japanese, not infinite

second off all of the otherworld stuff and heaven being as big as the universe is only ever said about the toei continuity, and was removed a while a go because of such, so no to that

third, the plane of existance of the living universe is the living universe, bulma doesn't say anything about them being on the edge of a "visible universe" she says that they are on the edge of the universe in general, no specification

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

This is supposed to be both a Cosmology blog for the Toei and Canon continuity, no?
We can still put the Universal Heaven and three space-time continuums stuff in the anime section

 

[OculoOmnibus]

first off, leave the "realms are different space times" stuff out, it was already rejected numerous times in past threads and even debated in the other parts of this thread, otherworld not having time is contradicted numerous times in the series, and we don't treat timeless realms as tier 2 structures without further context, also the null realm was stated to be "eternal" in the original japanese, not infinite

second off all of the otherworld stuff and heaven being as big as the universe is only ever said about the toei continuity, and was removed a while a go because of such, so no to that

third, the plane of existance of the living universe is the living universe, bulma doesn't say anything about them being on the edge of a "visible universe" she says that they are on the edge of the universe in general, no specification

1. When did I state Otherworld having no time? I only stated that the flow of time was different in it.

2. Did you not read the Daizenshuu guidebooks? They flat out say that Heaven is as wide as the Universe itself, and this was approved by Toriyama himself so it should also applies to the manga continuity.

3. How can you be so sure? Did you even read at all what was in my post? I completely clarified this info while posting it. Maybe read the sources of my posts before jumping to conclusions.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This is supposed to be both a Cosmology blog for the Toei and Canon continuity, no?
We can still put the Universal Heaven and three space-time continuums stuff in the anime section

We can

 

[Omegabronic]

This is supposed to be both a Cosmology blog for the Toei and Canon continuity, no?
We can still put the Universal Heaven and three space-time continuums stuff in the anime section

the three space time suff is already there, i was saying how that does not apply to the main cannon

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Heavenly Realm / Otherworld​

The next part of the universe is the Heavenly Realm, or "Otherworld", which is the realm that Heaven, the four planets of the Kais and Enma/Yemma's check in station is located. Both Heaven and Otherworld are two different things. Heaven is the actual planet where the souls of the dead stay, and Otherworld/Heavenly realm is the entire plane of existence they live on. Heaven is stated to be "as wide as the universe itself", which may seem completely exaggerated based on the visualized universe Toriyama drew, however I will get to why that is.

• Heaven (Daizenshuu 4)
  
  
• 
  
  
  
• (Translated from above)
  
  

For anyone who took an astronomy class, you may know that the observable universe in real life is not infinite in size, it's roughly about 46 billion light years wide. When it comes to Dragon Ball, the only possible explanation for both these statements to co-exist and not have any retcons is if the observable universe (as in the galaxies and stars in the universe) are only finite in size, but the plane of existence that the living people reside in is infinite. It can be backed up with how you simply cannot just "fly" all the way to Otherworld as it is a whole different plane of existence, and characters are only actually able to get there by using special spirit techniques such as Instant Transmission or Kai Kai which seems to let you teleport across dimensions (though not the Time Chamber or anywhere sealed off from the universe).

Oh also, time flows differently between the Living World and Otherworld as confirmed by Goku in the Buu saga, which should be enough proof they're two different space-time continuums when it comes to fictional dimension tiering.

Just so you know, Heaven is not considered to be as big as the universe in this canon. All information about this is just anime, literally where the information is said in the guides it says "Anime:". So Heaven is not as big as the Universe in the Z manga and dbs anime and manga.

Also, I think the first scan talking about the Otherworld, is from a dragon ball game called "Dragon Ball Z: The Anime Adventure Game", an American game that was only licensed to be made, so nothing coming from it is for to be used.

 

[Omegabronic]

1. When did I state Otherworld having no time? I only stated that the flow of time was different in it.

yeah, and that is not what the scan you showed said, it said that the otherworld has no time flow whatsoever

2. Did you not read the Daizenshuu guidebooks? They flat out say that Heaven is as wide as the Universe itself.

only in the sections that are talking about the anime, see here for more context, this was discussed before

3. How can you be so sure? Did you even read at all what was in my post? I completely clarified this info while posting it. Maybe read the sources of my posts before jumping to conclusions.

i read it, that is why i said what i said

 

[OculoOmnibus]

This is supposed to be both a Cosmology blog for the Toei and Canon continuity, no?
We can still put the Universal Heaven and three space-time continuums stuff in the anime section

I don't know exactly how VSBW came to conclusions on the Daizenshuus only applying to the Toei continuity, since a lot of them were approved by Toriyama himself and he's even commentated on them being more reliable since he forgets a lot of stuff.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

And, and, and, and, the faces are being refuted

 

[Phsccarvalho]

I don't know exactly how VSBW came to conclusions on the Daizenshuus only applying to the Toei continuity, since a lot of them were approved by Toriyama himself and he's even commentated on them being more reliable since he forgets a lot of stuff.

Because there are literally two sections.

"Events:" and "Anime:"

"Events:" - Things that happened in the manga

"Anime:" - Things that happened in the anime.

If we were to accept things from the "Anime:" section as canonical for the manga, then we would have to consider information coming from movies like Gogeta and Jamemba as well, since in that same guide, in a section "Anime:" talks about this movie .

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

When it comes to the mainline Dragon Ball cosmology, it can get really, really confusing. I myself had to do a lot of research just to see exactly how the universe even functioned because I couldn't tell if the Goku-Beerus clash in the Battle of Gods arc feat was simply just a Universe level feat.

Spacing and Structure​

So for starters we have the Daizenshuu model of what one of the twelve universes look like, as this was created by Akira Toriyama himself.

• (Toriyama illustration)
  
  
• (Translated version and upscaled)
  
  

I will be using this as a reference to what one of the universes looks like, since it was actually made by Toriyama and has been reinforced by many of the main showrunners and writers (such as Takao Koyama). Toei has made a different looking universe structure in the Dragon Ball Super anime, but it really doesn't matter what it looks like since the illustration is merely just a way to visualize it. What's more important is the contents of the universe.

Living Realm / Mortal Universe​

There are at least three different "realms", or planes of existence in one of these universes.

• There's the mortal universe first. Daizenshuu 4 says it's an endless, expansive space, so this by default should mean the universe is at least infinite.
  
  
• However, there is a small problem. In the anime of Dragon Ball Super, it states that there's an edge to the universe.
  
  
• Bulma also states that they are at the "edge" of the universe in the manga.
  
  

Now does this mean that the living universe's size is being retconned? Is this just the Daizenshuu books stating hyperbole? Well, no. I'll explain below when I talk about the other sections of the universe.

Heavenly Realm / Otherworld​

The next part of the universe is the Heavenly Realm, or "Otherworld", which is the realm that Heaven, the four planets of the Kais and Enma/Yemma's check in station is located. Both Heaven and Otherworld are two different things. Heaven is the actual planet where the souls of the dead stay, and Otherworld/Heavenly realm is the entire plane of existence they live on. Heaven is stated to be "as wide as the universe itself", which may seem completely exaggerated based on the visualized universe Toriyama drew, however I will get to why that is.

• Heaven (Daizenshuu 4)
  
  
• 
  
  
  
• (Translated from above)
  
  

For anyone who took an astronomy class, you may know that the observable universe in real life is not infinite in size, it's roughly about 46 billion light years wide. When it comes to Dragon Ball, the only possible explanation for both these statements to co-exist and not have any retcons is if the observable universe (as in the galaxies and stars in the universe) are only finite in size, but the plane of existence that the living people reside in is infinite. It can be backed up with how you simply cannot just "fly" all the way to Otherworld as it is a whole different plane of existence, and characters are only actually able to get there by using special spirit techniques such as Instant Transmission or Kai Kai which seems to let you teleport across dimensions (though not the Time Chamber or anywhere sealed off from the universe).

Oh also, time flows differently between the Living World and Otherworld as confirmed by Goku in the Buu saga, which should be enough proof they're two different space-time continuums when it comes to fictional dimension tiering.

Kaioshin Realm​

Now that we have two universe sized structures out of the way, we go on to the last section of the universe which is the Supreme Kai/Kaioshin Realm. This is the separate space of the universe the Supreme Kais reside in to watch over all of life.

• In the Daizenshuu books, it is stated to be 1/10th the size of both the Living Universe and Otherworld combined. As we know in math, ∞/10 is still just infinity. This would also mean that the Kaioshin Realm is an infinitely sized plane of existence as well.
  
  

So overall, this would mean that there are at minimum, three space-time continuums when it comes to one universe. There are twelve universes in total, and some even have similar causalities such as Universe 6 and Universe 7 being extremely similar in history yet diverging in some aspects (such as Planet Sadala not being abandoned for Planet Vegeta)

Miscellaneous Realms​

Now there are other places stated in Daizenshuu such as the "Enma Realm" and the Demon Realm, but based on what we know these are likely part of Otherworld and the Living Universe respectively. If anyone has any proof of these two being separate planes of existence then I would like to see the evidence.

• The Time Chamber is about the size of Earth, stated by Goku when him and Gohan trained in it in the Cell arc.
  
  
• A Daizenshuu 4 page stating the formation of the universe. Keep in mind that the "Galaxies" are more correctly just quadrants, as Jaco does state in the Dragon Ball Super manga that there are countless amounts of galaxies in the universe, not really a retcon but just better stated as to what the "four galaxies" actually are.
  
  

Other Places in the Multiverse​

I'll also talk about Zeno's Realm and the Null Realm (also known as "World of Void"), since both seem to be existing entirely outside the Multiverse structure itself as said in the anime.

• We see with Zeno's Realm, it has universes floating around the palace. Now I don't know exactly how big the Zeno World is so I won't factor this into the size of the multiverse, but I will say that based on it's appearance, it seems to be egregiously larger than the already above infinite sized universes.
  
  
• But we do know how large the Null Realm is, as it's stated to be "infinite nothingness" and isolated outside the multiverse. Again, this world is stated to have no time or space, reinforcing what I said earlier about the different planes of existence. The realm seems to also exist in every alternate timeline as well.
  
  

Timelines​

But here comes a tricky part: There are multiple timelines that can be created when travelling through time. The way time works in Dragon Ball is far different than real life, since the universal structure is way larger and different than most modern theories of the multiverse.

Time Travel in Dragon Ball​

Now we know how they're created: You alter the past and the time axis spins into a whole different stream of events.

In the Black arc, new timelines are created by both Trunks and Zamasu due to actions that alter the past. There are six timelines as of now based on the amount of rings Gowasu has. This was formerly seven before Future Zeno erased the entirety of Trunks' timeline.

Scaling of Timelines​

Does this mean that the 4D scaling I mentioned earlier for the universes is invalidated because the new timelines contain the entire existence of the Dragon World within them? Does this mean that this puts characters like Zeno up to Multiversal+ because the concept of time is above the structure of space-time continuums in multiverse theory? Nope, not at all.

Assuming there are at least 12 universes, each with their three planes of existence, this would mean that there are at least 36 different space-time continuums, and adding the Null Realm makes this 37. As said above I won't factor in Zeno's Realm as I can't find any material that verbally tells us it's size, for all we know they could just be decorations made by the Grand Priest.

In total, we know that there are at minimum, 222 space-time continuums in the mainline Dragon Ball canon. If we assume that some of these timelines never experienced Zeno erasing the other six universe, this number could jump up to 500+. This means that the Dragon Ball cosmology stays mostly around Low Multiverse level when it comes to power scaling.

Feat Examples​

With this cosmology revision I stated above, here is what the appropriate scaling for some major feats in Dragon Ball Super should really be.

• Goku-Beerus Universe Destroying Clash - Low Multiverse level
• Infinite Zamasu's existence spreading across timelines - At least Low Multiverse level
• Future Zeno erasing the entirety of Trunks' timeline - At least Low Multiverse level

Most of the reference material in this thread is from the Daizenshuu books or the actual anime/manga itself. There are other Dragon Ball guidebooks I reference as well since most of them were approved by Toriyama.

If there are any arguments for scaling Dragon Ball any higher I would like to hear them, though I am not very active on the forums much due to my personal life getting in the way (I debunked some Sonic scaling once and I haven't checked any replies).

A lot of this isn’t needed but about the infinite universe section yeah pretty much

Also I feel like you’re gonna say “it’s referring to universe in a general term” or whatever that means but the living realm for example can just be called the living realm or even the universe and the afterlife can be called he cosmos and the macrocosm is never referred to as macrocosm is referred to as a Universe or Universe 7 so it not specifying which area of the universe it is doesn’t matter because the light part of the universe could still be referred to as the universe and the dark vice versa https://i.imgur.com/nAFxWNx_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand but context is all that matters nitpicking terminology wont get us nowhere regarding the context and using supplementary material proves that it has to indeed be talking about the light the only way you could argue otherwise is the fact that it mentioned the edge and center of the whole living universe or universe 7 or wtv but you can’t just say there has to be only one interpretation when that interpretation isn’t backed up by any facts and is just an inconsistent way to say it’s contradicted when there’s no contradiction you’re just making one so all I’m showing is that the guides aren’t contradicted by the guides at all

with this as well

first off, leave the "realms are different space times" stuff out, it was already rejected numerous times in past threads and even debated in the other parts of this thread, otherworld not having time is contradicted numerous times in the series, and we don't treat timeless realms as tier 2 structures without further context, also the null realm was stated to be "eternal" in the original japanese, not infinite

second off all of the otherworld stuff and heaven being as big as the universe is only ever said about the toei continuity, and was removed a while a go because of such, so no to that

third, the plane of existance of the living universe is the living universe, bulma doesn't say anything about them being on the edge of a "visible universe" she says that they are on the edge of the universe in general, no specification

what Do you mean by universe in general?

 

[Ped2018]

Man, this thread has zero staff

 

[Eden_Warlock99]

A lot of this isn’t needed but about the infinite universe section yeah pretty much

We gotta talk about everything in a Cosmology blog, that's what makes it rich

 

[OculoOmnibus]

Just so you know, Heaven is not considered to be as big as the universe in this canon. All information about this is just anime, literally where the information is said in the guides it says "Anime:". So Heaven is not as big as the Universe in the Z manga and dbs anime and manga.

Also, I think the first scan talking about the Otherworld, is from a dragon ball game called "Dragon Ball Z: The Anime Adventure Game", an American game that was only licensed to be made, so nothing coming from it is for to be used.

My bad about Number 2, I looked at a lot of guidebooks DBZ related and had a hard time organizing some of them (Especially the Daizenshuus).

I also relied on the universe structure itself, since then again Heaven is a huge planet inside the even larger realm.

(This still would mean Dragon Ball only caps at 2-C)

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Man, this thread has zero staff

A lot of staff have been dmed and they didn’t chat the only thing I can think of is making another part to this thread so staff are more willing to comment since i think 6 pages is a big turn off

 

[DivineAura44]

When it comes to the mainline Dragon Ball cosmology, it can get really, really confusing. I myself had to do a lot of research just to see exactly how the universe even functioned because I couldn't tell if the Goku-Beerus clash in the Battle of Gods arc feat was simply just a Universe level feat.

Spacing and Structure​

So for starters we have the Daizenshuu model of what one of the twelve universes look like, as this was created by Akira Toriyama himself.

• (Toriyama illustration)
  
  
• (Translated version and upscaled)
  
  

I will be using this as a reference to what one of the universes looks like, since it was actually made by Toriyama and has been reinforced by many of the main showrunners and writers (such as Takao Koyama). Toei has made a different looking universe structure in the Dragon Ball Super anime, but it really doesn't matter what it looks like since the illustration is merely just a way to visualize it. What's more important is the contents of the universe.

Living Realm / Mortal Universe​

There are at least three different "realms", or planes of existence in one of these universes.

• There's the mortal universe first. Daizenshuu 4 says it's an endless, expansive space, so this by default should mean the universe is at least infinite.
  
  
• However, there is a small problem. In the anime of Dragon Ball Super, it states that there's an edge to the universe.
  
  
• Bulma also states that they are at the "edge" of the universe in the manga.
  
  

Now does this mean that the living universe's size is being retconned? Is this just the Daizenshuu books stating hyperbole? Well, no. I'll explain below when I talk about the other sections of the universe.

Heavenly Realm / Otherworld​

The next part of the universe is the Heavenly Realm, or "Otherworld", which is the realm that Heaven, the four planets of the Kais and Enma/Yemma's check in station is located. Both Heaven and Otherworld are two different things. Heaven is the actual planet where the souls of the dead stay, and Otherworld/Heavenly realm is the entire plane of existence they live on. Heaven is stated to be "as wide as the universe itself", which may seem completely exaggerated based on the visualized universe Toriyama drew, however I will get to why that is.

• Heaven (Daizenshuu 4)
  
  
• 
  
  
  
• (Translated from above)
  
  

For anyone who took an astronomy class, you may know that the observable universe in real life is not infinite in size, it's roughly about 46 billion light years wide. When it comes to Dragon Ball, the only possible explanation for both these statements to co-exist and not have any retcons is if the observable universe (as in the galaxies and stars in the universe) are only finite in size, but the plane of existence that the living people reside in is infinite. It can be backed up with how you simply cannot just "fly" all the way to Otherworld as it is a whole different plane of existence, and characters are only actually able to get there by using special spirit techniques such as Instant Transmission or Kai Kai which seems to let you teleport across dimensions (though not the Time Chamber or anywhere sealed off from the universe).

Oh also, time flows differently between the Living World and Otherworld as confirmed by Goku in the Buu saga, which should be enough proof they're two different space-time continuums when it comes to fictional dimension tiering.

Kaioshin Realm​

Now that we have two universe sized structures out of the way, we go on to the last section of the universe which is the Supreme Kai/Kaioshin Realm. This is the separate space of the universe the Supreme Kais reside in to watch over all of life.

• In the Daizenshuu books, it is stated to be 1/10th the size of both the Living Universe and Otherworld combined. As we know in math, ∞/10 is still just infinity. This would also mean that the Kaioshin Realm is an infinitely sized plane of existence as well.
  
  

So overall, this would mean that there are at minimum, three space-time continuums when it comes to one universe. There are twelve universes in total, and some even have similar causalities such as Universe 6 and Universe 7 being extremely similar in history yet diverging in some aspects (such as Planet Sadala not being abandoned for Planet Vegeta)

Miscellaneous Realms​

Now there are other places stated in Daizenshuu such as the "Enma Realm" and the Demon Realm, but based on what we know these are likely part of Otherworld and the Living Universe respectively. If anyone has any proof of these two being separate planes of existence then I would like to see the evidence.

• The Time Chamber is about the size of Earth, stated by Goku when him and Gohan trained in it in the Cell arc.
  
  
• A Daizenshuu 4 page stating the formation of the universe. Keep in mind that the "Galaxies" are more correctly just quadrants, as Jaco does state in the Dragon Ball Super manga that there are countless amounts of galaxies in the universe, not really a retcon but just better stated as to what the "four galaxies" actually are.
  
  

Other Places in the Multiverse​

I'll also talk about Zeno's Realm and the Null Realm (also known as "World of Void"), since both seem to be existing entirely outside the Multiverse structure itself as said in the anime.

• We see with Zeno's Realm, it has universes floating around the palace. Now I don't know exactly how big the Zeno World is so I won't factor this into the size of the multiverse, but I will say that based on it's appearance, it seems to be egregiously larger than the already above infinite sized universes.
  
  
• But we do know how large the Null Realm is, as it's stated to be "infinite nothingness" and isolated outside the multiverse. Again, this world is stated to have no time or space, reinforcing what I said earlier about the different planes of existence. The realm seems to also exist in every alternate timeline as well.
  
  

Timelines​

But here comes a tricky part: There are multiple timelines that can be created when travelling through time. The way time works in Dragon Ball is far different than real life, since the universal structure is way larger and different than most modern theories of the multiverse.

Time Travel in Dragon Ball​

Now we know how they're created: You alter the past and the time axis spins into a whole different stream of events.

In the Black arc, new timelines are created by both Trunks and Zamasu due to actions that alter the past. There are six timelines as of now based on the amount of rings Gowasu has. This was formerly seven before Future Zeno erased the entirety of Trunks' timeline.

Scaling of Timelines​

Does this mean that the 4D scaling I mentioned earlier for the universes is invalidated because the new timelines contain the entire existence of the Dragon World within them? Does this mean that this puts characters like Zeno up to Multiversal+ because the concept of time is above the structure of space-time continuums in multiverse theory? Nope, not at all.

Assuming there are at least 12 universes, each with their three planes of existence, this would mean that there are at least 36 different space-time continuums, and adding the Null Realm makes this 37. As said above I won't factor in Zeno's Realm as I can't find any material that verbally tells us it's size, for all we know they could just be decorations made by the Grand Priest.

In total, we know that there are at minimum, 222 space-time continuums in the mainline Dragon Ball canon. If we assume that some of these timelines never experienced Zeno erasing the other six universe, this number could jump up to 500+. This means that the Dragon Ball cosmology stays mostly around Low Multiverse level when it comes to power scaling.

Feat Examples​

With this cosmology revision I stated above, here is what the appropriate scaling for some major feats in Dragon Ball Super should really be.

• Goku-Beerus Universe Destroying Clash - Low Multiverse level
• Infinite Zamasu's existence spreading across timelines - At least Low Multiverse level
• Future Zeno erasing the entirety of Trunks' timeline - At least Low Multiverse level

Most of the reference material in this thread is from the Daizenshuu books or the actual anime/manga itself. There are other Dragon Ball guidebooks I reference as well since most of them were approved by Toriyama.

If there are any arguments for scaling Dragon Ball any higher I would like to hear them, though I am not very active on the forums much due to my personal life getting in the way (I debunked some Sonic scaling once and I haven't checked any replies).

You should probably make a response they kinda closed the thread.

 

[Omegabronic]

A lot of this isn’t needed but about the infinite universe section yeah pretty much

with this as well

what Do you mean by universe in general?

she just uses the term "universe" without specifying any specific part of it, but you and i discussed that beforehand earlier

I don't know exactly how VSBW came to conclusions on the Daizenshuus only applying to the Toei continuity, since a lot of them were approved by Toriyama himself and he's even commentated on them being more reliable since he forgets a lot of stuff.

because the section in question is talking about the anime, being approved by akira has nothing to do with it

 

[Ped2018]

A lot of staff have been dmed and they didn’t chat the only thing I can think of is making another part to this thread so staff are more willing to comment since i think 6 pages is a big turn off

That would be a good idea, discussing everything that needs to be discussed here, creating another thread with the conclusions of this one and then debating the staff

 

[Omegabronic]

That would be a good idea, discussing everything that needs to be discussed here, creating another thread with the conclusions of this one and then debating the staff

staff would need to come here to approve a conclusion in the first place

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

she just uses the term "universe" without specifying any specific part of it, but you and i discussed that beforehand earlier


because the section in question is talking about the anime, being approved by akira has nothing to do with it

okay then why can’t it be the light of the observable universe if other realms can be called a “universe” and make it

she just uses the term "universe" without specifying any specific part of it, but you and i discussed that beforehand earlier


because the section in question is talking about the anime, being approved by akira has nothing to do with it

Also I feel like you’re gonna say “it’s referring to universe in a general term” or whatever that means but the living realm for example can just be called the living realm or even the universe and the afterlife can be called he cosmos and the macrocosm is never referred to as macrocosm is referred to as a Universe or Universe 7 so it not specifying which area of the universe it is doesn’t matter because the light part of the universe could still be referred to as the universe and the dark vice versa https://i.imgur.com/nAFxWNx_d.webp?maxwidth=760&fidelity=grand but context is all that matters nitpicking terminology wont get us nowhere regarding the context and using supplementary material proves that it has to indeed be talking about the light the only way you could argue otherwise is the fact that it mentioned the edge and center of the whole living universe or universe 7 or wtv but you can’t just say there has to be only one interpretation when that interpretation isn’t backed up by any facts and is just an inconsistent way to say it’s contradicted when there’s no contradiction you’re just making one so all I’m showing is that the canon isn’t contradicted by the guides at all

staff would need to come here to approve a conclusion in the first place

Yeah but sadly appears like they won’t give a response

 

[OculoOmnibus]

she just uses the term "universe" without specifying any specific part of it, but you and i discussed that beforehand earlier

I also acknowledged that fact and stated a possible answer to the question as to what that could be referring to, since a lot of Dragon Ball's cosmic layout (pertaining to just in the Living World, nothing more) can draw parallels to our real world such as the planets, galaxies and such.

 

[Omegabronic]

okay then why can’t it be the light of the observable universe if other realms can be called a “universe” and make it

i didn't understood your question at all, could you explain better?

also as i said earlier, if the universe was infinite anyway changing positions to scan all of space area of the living universe would not matter in the slightest

Yeah but sadly appears like they won’t give a response

as i said, we wait, keep bumping the thread now an then, and then wait again, we can all be patient here

 

[Omegabronic]

I also acknowledged that fact and stated a possible answer to the question as to what that could be referring to, since a lot of Dragon Ball's cosmic layout (pertaining to just in the Living World, nothing more) can draw parallels to our real world such as the planets, galaxies and such.

do you have evidence in the scenes and context in question to say that your possibility in the true one? also that doesn't work in context since bulma wants to go the the center of the universe to scan all of space in search of the super dragon balls, if it was infinite then moving any finite distance wouldn't matter at all