Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3

[Reiner04]

The point of the convo is that we are arguing infinite can have edge and basically establishing it as official, there is no such thing as infinite with edge. That's given.

Also that's the last thing I'll say. Everything else is on staff.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

The point of the convo is that we are arguing infinite can have edge and basically establishing it as official, there is no such thing as infinite with edge. That's given.

Can you name all the numbers between 0 and 1 since you’re claiming infinite cannot have an edge

Edit: Forgot to mention this an infinite series can be bounded in some cases. For example, the collection of all rational numbers between 0 and 1 (aka 0 < x < 1) is both infinite and is bounded between 2 edges. Using all real numbers instead give us an uncountably infinitely many points befween 0 and 1

 

[Reiner04]

Can you name all the numbers between 0 and 1 since you’re claiming infinite cannot have an edge

That's the biggest misinterpretation I have seen. 1 to 2 is relative. If you're counting natural numbers only then it's finite. If you're applying some kind of function then it's finite. The moment you start counting all the real numbers btw 1 and 2, then it becomes uncountable infinite with no edge, you'll never be able to reach 2.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

That's the biggest misinterpretation I have seen. 1 to 2 is relative. If you're counting natural numbers only then it's finite. If you're applying some kind of function then it's finite. The moment you start counting all the real numbers btw 1 and 2, then it becomes uncountable infinite with no edge, you'll never be able to reach 2.

1, 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.1111, … etc

 

[Reiner04]

Infinite can have edge and basically trying to prove it? Are we ******* serious at this moment? There is no such thing as this.

1, 1.1, 1.11, 1.111, 1.1111, … etc

If it's real numbers. As I said 0, 1, 2, etcetcetc are basically used to count things 2 bananas aren't infinite. They're just ordered with natural numbers. Natural numbers have edge not real numbers btw any two numbers.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Infinite can have edge and basically trying to prove it? Are we ******* serious at this moment? There is no such thing as this.

If it's real numbers. As I said 0, 1, 2, etcetcetc are basically used to count things 2 bananas aren't infinite. They're just ordered with natural numbers. Natural numbers have edge not real numbers btw any two numbers.

I literally mentioned what I’m talking about

Edit: Forgot to mention this an infinite series can be bounded in some cases. For example, the collection of all rational numbers between 0 and 1 (aka 0 < x < 1) is both infinite and is bounded between 2 edges. Using all real numbers instead give us an uncountably infinitely many points befween 0 and 1

 

[Vietthai96]

what the hell guys, can we stop talking about this???, literally it isn't really help the thread

 

[Reiner04]

Okay, that was edit dude
Anyway there no such theory or arguements exist for infinite to have edge or border or end in irl or in tiering system. So irrelevant. It's a point of if it'll be accepted as something that should be considered possible in fiction but that doesn't depends on me.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Okay, that was edit dude
Anyway there no such theory or arguements exist for infinite to have edge or border or end in irl or in tiering system. So irrelevant. It's a point of if it'll be accepted as something that should be considered possible in fiction but that doesn't depends on me.

I made my edit before you responded
also infinite having an edge or border is something accepted on vsb I only know about it because of vsb lol

what the hell guys, can we stop talking about this???, literally it isn't really help the thread

mb

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Not directly

If that is the case, then the statements from the Daizenshuu are hardly usable, as the material was gathered by Caramel Mama and not Toriyama, any editors in his circle, or even staff from Bird Studio. This has been the precedent for years on the Wiki.

 

[Reiner04]

infinite having an edge or border is something accepted on vsb I only know about it because of vsb

If it's really the case then I don't see any contradiction in least from my side. I have no opinion over credibility of guide books though so I'll leave that part of discussion.

 

[omegabronic]

It isn't matter, visual contradiction isn't anti-feat, because in fiction something infinite can have edge and you can't appropriately display something infinite by visual alone.

I was not talking about infinity tho, but about a supposed darkness that should have been there but isn't

The macrocosm there is depicted as a bubble with a galaxy inside of it instead of 2 realms and the Kaioshin realm orbiting it

It is depicted as a massive cosmos, i don't see any one galaxy there, also these are other dimensions, they wouldn't shown

Demon Realm might be considered its own universe due to this

• If they're stated to mirror "The Universe" or "Our Universe" or "The Real World", they would refer to being universes.
• If there is shown to be a collection of multiple alternate worlds/dimensions that are either stated to be parallel and/or there are visual depictions resembling each of those worlds/dimensions to be metaphorically similar to each other (Such as bubbles or other structures that appear similar in size), and most importantly, at least one of those individual worlds/dimensions has shown enough evidence to consider them a Universe level+ sized spacetime continuum, then the conclusion is to consider all of those individual worlds/dimensions universes and that the entire collection is a multiverse.
  So it might be considered

Nah, we don't have enough info

 

[Reiner04]

Regarding infinite speed, it has nothing to do with infinite having edge even as per our standards. But the feats and statements regarding infinite with an edge are the statements and scans are things of high skepticism. Something being infinite in that case requires high and more strong evidence than usual just throwing around statements.

Post in thread 'Regarding Infinite Speed' https://vsbattles.com/threads/regarding-infinite-speed.128946/post-4368816

 

[Stefano4444]

Something being infinite in that case requires high and more strong evidence than usual just throwing around statements.

Pretty sure all infinite feats in the site are only due of accepted statements, since you can't trully visually display an infinite space.

Like you can drawn a page where it display countless galaxies (or at least so many that they cover most of the panel), but that alone doesn't = infinite.

 

[Reiner04]

Pretty sure all infinite feats in the site are only due of accepted statements, since you can't trully visually display an infinite space.

Because they don't have anti feat statements to be called a outlier/hyperbole/whatever. If something is stated to have an edge than there is need to have a stronger evidence than a random guidebook throw away statement. Edge is contradictory to the infinite but if edge itself just meant something else in context and not really a physical edge then it's different thing or if infinite space statements has way more consistency than edge. Like DMC, there was one statement which was used against it but that statement was just a figure of speech and there were way many infinite statements to counter that single one.

I am pretty sure that anime or manga itself doesn't have any statement regarding universe being infinite and it's mostly coming from guide books and just few of them.

 

[Phsccarvalho]

Sorry if it is, but is this still a staff topic? If so, you can delete my comment.

 

[Reiner04]

Sorry if it is, but is this still a staff topic? If so, you can delete my comment.

It is but as long as you have something to contribute regarding cosmology then you are welcome or if you have smth important to say on it.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

If that is the case, then the statements from the Daizenshuu are hardly usable, as the material was gathered by Caramel Mama and not Toriyama, any editors in his circle, or even staff from Bird Studio. This has been the precedent for years on the Wiki.

In “Dragon Ball Heroes: 5th Anniversary Guide Book”, Higuchi Wataru (Producer) stated that his intention is to work cooperatively with “Akira Toriyama” and other interested parties to create something that all fans can accept, thus the ability to incorporate “What-If Elements” (ex: Super Dragon Ball Heroes) express the true depth of Dragon Ball.
Also I’m pretty sure Toriyama comments on how Daizenshuu is a really good enclyopefia and how he wishes that he had it during his time writing the manga

Because they don't have anti feat statements to be called a outlier/hyperbole/whatever. If something is stated to have an edge than there is need to have a stronger evidence than a random guidebook throw away statement. Edge is contradictory to the infinite but if edge itself just meant something else in context and not really a physical edge then it's different thing or if infinite space statements has way more consistency than edge. Like DMC, there was one statement which was used against it but that statement was just a figure of speech and there were way many infinite statements to counter that single one.

I am pretty sure that anime or manga itself doesn't have any statement regarding universe being infinite and it's mostly coming from guide books and just few of them.

I was just showing that Infinite can indeed have an edge either way it wouldn’t be the case here as if you read my comments above there’s a unobservable universe and a observable universe the observable one being infinitely expanding, but the unobservable being infinitely expansive with galaxy illuminations many light years long

 

[omegabronic]

I was just showing that Infinite can indeed have an edge either way it wouldn’t be the case here as if you read my comments above there’s a unobservable universe and a observable universe the observable one being infinitely expanding, but the unobservable being infinitely expansive with galaxy illuminations many light years long

can you give examples on this wiki for infinities having an edge?

 

[Reiner04]

I was just showing that Infinite can indeed have an edge

Good.

I was just showing that Infinite can indeed have an edge either way it wouldn’t be the case here as if you read my comments above there’s a unobservable universe and a observable universe the observable one being infinitely expanding, but the unobservable being infinitely expansive with galaxy illuminations many light years long

When observable universe and unknown region of the universe was ever a established thing in dragonball? Have they ever divided the Universe on this basis? As it seems like pure headcanon to me.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

can you give examples on this wiki for infinities having an edge?

Perhaps this may help an
infinite series can be bounded in some cases. For example, the collection of all rational numbers between 0 and 1 (aka 0 < x < 1) is both infinite and is bounded between 2 edges. Using all real numbers instead give us an uncountably infinitely many points befween 0 and 1

Good.

When observable universe and unknown region of the universe was ever a established thing in dragonball? Have they ever divided the Universe on this basis? As it seems like pure headcanon to me.

It’s not head canon I got it from the guides and Yakon specifically as I’ve shown above is from somewhere in the far universe where light cannot reach which is consistent with the guides

 

[Reiner04]

Perhaps this may help an
infinite series can be bounded in some cases. For example, the collection of all rational numbers between 0 and 1 (aka 0 < x < 1) is both infinite and is bounded between 2 edges. Using all real numbers instead give us an uncountably infinitely many points befween 0 and 1

Did you ignored my comments and what DT has said? Infinite can never have edge and neither our tiering system says so.
Post in thread 'Regarding Infinite Speed' https://vsbattles.com/threads/regarding-infinite-speed.128946/post-4368816

It’s not head canon I got it from the guides and Yakon specifically as I’ve shown above is from somewhere in the far universe where light cannot reach which is consistent with the guides

That universe is divided in known and unknown universe? And it has been established in the show as well? Can I see the scans?

 

[omegabronic]

Perhaps this may help an
infinite series can be bounded in some cases. For example, the collection of all rational numbers between 0 and 1 (aka 0 < x < 1) is both infinite and is bounded between 2 edges. Using all real numbers instead give us an uncountably infinitely many points befween 0 and 1

yeah but this is numbers, we are talking about physical 3D space, also this

Did you ignored my comments and what DT has said? Infinite can never have edge and neither our tiering system says so.
Post in thread 'Regarding Infinite Speed' https://vsbattles.com/threads/regarding-infinite-speed.128946/post-4368816

It’s not head canon I got it from the guides and Yakon specifically as I’ve shown above is from somewhere in the far universe where light cannot reach which is consistent with the guides

which is retconed when we see the actual cosmos universe from outside and no darkness is seem around it

 

[pineappleman]

Yo
I'm just popping in to make it clear that the edge that we see in Super is that of the observable Universe which is only infinitely expanding and not infinite outright, which is why there is an edge/can be a center to it
The unobservable universe is what's stated to be infinite outright

 

[Nullflowerblush]

Also I’m pretty sure Toriyama comments on how Daizenshuu is a really good enclyopefia and how he wishes that he had it during his time writing the manga

That does not really change the fact that:

1. Toriyama had very little hand in the production of the Daizenshuu
2. Toriyama admits to being super forgetful and not remembering too many specific details about the series
3. The Daizenshuu often presents information contradictory to both itself and the source material

 

[omegabronic]

Yo
I'm just popping in to make it clear that the edge that we see in Super is that of the observable Universe which is only infinitely expanding and not infinite outright, which is why there is an edge/can be a center to it
The unobservable universe is what's stated to be infinite outright

what is the evidence for this?

 

[pineappleman]

That does not really change the fact that:

1. Toriyama had very little hand in the production of the Daizenshuu
2. Toriyama admits to being super forgetful and not remembering too many specific details about the series

Both those claims only give more credence to Daizenshuu since Toriyama himself said that the Daizenshuu staff are more reliable than he is when it comes to DB cosmology

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Did you ignored my comments and what DT has said? Infinite can never have edge and neither our tiering system says so.
Post in thread 'Regarding Infinite Speed' https://vsbattles.com/threads/regarding-infinite-speed.128946/post-4368816


That universe is divided in known and unknown universe? And it has been established in the show as well? Can I see the scans?

You never sent that but if DT said that then it’s not really useful the argument anyways
And for the scans it’s right here

I have done so now


now for some scans:
(Daizenshuu 7 is the source)
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/669891148143394826/720185966123286538/universe.PNG Translation: Infinitely expansive and galaxy illuminations tens of thousand of light years… Hundreds of million light years… Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach (Yakon being an example making this consistent (Source Daizenshuu 4)
https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/yVcr2ZcJN-YKJeMJsnsJjpZve5Jo3lhdzge22E3YuPs/?cb=20190713022613&path-prefix=pt-br/https/vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/liberproeliis/images/5/5c/Daiz4-pag20.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/264 Translation: An Infinite Space filled with light and darkness (Daizenshuu 4)
Proof of the observable universe as it’s light is infinitely expanding (Daizenshuu 4)

all of this shows that there’s a observable universe where is illuminated and a non observable universe thats filled with darkness I also had a scan that showed the cardinal directions I lost it but I’ll try to find it again

yeah but this is numbers, we are talking about physical 3D space, also this




which is retconed when we see the actual cosmos universe from outside and no darkness is seem around it

So are you claiming the entire universe map got retconned because that’s not shown when a picture of the macrocosm is shown you would need to prove something’s been retconned

That does not really change the fact that:

1. Toriyama had very little hand in the production of the Daizenshuu
2. Toriyama admits to being super forgetful and not remembering too many specific details about the series
3. The Daizenshuu often presents information contradictory to both itself and the source material

When has the daizenshuu been contradictory?

what is the evidence for this?

It’s in my current message

 

[Reiner04]

Okay, I read those scans I only saw one legit scan
An infinite space of light and darkness,

which is contradicted by the show and not being supported and easily a hyperbole.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Okay, I read those scans I only saw one legit scan
An infinite space of light and darkness,

which is contradicted by the show and not being supported and easily a hyperbole.

That’s not the only scan there’s a scan that says the endless space envelops celestial bodies a scan that talks about the infinite universe and how they are galaxy illuminations a certain amount of light years and a scan of the observable universe being infinitely expanding decided by the Kaio based off cardinal directions and there’s many other infinite universe scans but I didn’t post them as they’re already mentioned in the blog

 

[omegabronic]

So are you claiming the entire universe map got retconned because that’s not shown when a picture of the macrocosm is shown you would need to prove something’s been retconned

1 i am not saying that it was retconed, just that when we see the living universe from the outside it doesn't have any darkness around it, 2 even if i was talking about the map, the map itself was never shown in z nor in super anime, so it wouldn't be a retcon as much as the guide contradicting the series

It’s in my current message

can you link it? i am not seeing it

 

[Reiner04]

That’s not the only scan there’s a scan that says the endless space envelops celestial bodies a scan that talks about the infinite universe and how they are galaxy illuminations a certain amount of light years and a scan of the observable universe being infinitely expanding decided by the Kaio based off cardinal directions and there’s many other infinite universe scans but I didn’t post them as they’re already mentioned in the blog

Can I see the Raw scan? Also is it in the show or guide book again? Because it is again contradicted and not supported.

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

1 i am not saying that it was retconed, just that when we see the living universe from the outside it doesn't have any darkness around it, 2 even if i was talking about the map, the map itself was never shown in z nor in super anime, so it wouldn't be a retcon as much as the guide contradicting the series


can you link it? i am not seeing it

Post in thread 'Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5532555

Can I see the Raw scan? Also is it in the show or guide book again? Because it is again contradicted and not supported.

All of it is in Japanese… and you keep saying contradicted but it’s your burden of proof to prove it’s contradicted

 

[omegabronic]

Post in thread 'Dragonball Cosmology Revision: Part 3'
https://vsbattles.com/threads/dragonball-cosmology-revision-part-3.150265/post-5532555

i don't see how this answers my questions, i asked for the proof that the statement in super was talking about the observable universe

 

[Reiner04]

Sigh, blatant ignorance and arguementum infinitum. Leaving the topic now and will suggest to leave as well. No need to argue over something that has already been discussed and everything has been said, unless adding a new arguement or scan (in this thread).

 

[pineappleman]

what is the evidence for this?

"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach." (Daizenshuu 4)
This Daizenshuu scan refers to what we're calling the 'Observable Universe' here, it talks about an infinitely expanding light but with darkness that still dwells before it, and creatures that live there. This is the section where the Four Kaio govern their own associated cardinal direction holding countless galaxies.

(Daizenshuu 4)
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world."

What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.

And we know that this place HAS to be beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super, since it's littered by stars and light. It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond. There are no contradictions, everything is in line with the show.

Now, for the scans on the infinite nature of the entirety of the Living World:

"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives" (Daizenshuu 4)

"An endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world." (Daizenshuu 7)


People read incomplete Daizenshuu pages at surface level, see that it refers to both a Universe that is infinitely expanding and outright infinite, and falsely conclude that it has inconsistencies. This is false. The same people do this and end up thinking that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies.
Read all available information, and with the proper context provided you will understand how the DB cosmology works. It's a cosmology that contains both an infinitely expanding Universe, and an infinite Universe.

And it's backed up by the show itself, through Yakon and his home planet and the edge of the Observable Universe being lit with stars.

 

[omegabronic]

"Infinitely expanding and galaxy illuminations Ten of thousands of light years.. Hundreds of millions of light years.. Countless unknown aliens monsters live beyond stars where light cannot reach." (Daizenshuu 4)
This Daizenshuu scan refers to what we're calling the 'Observable Universe' here, it talks about an infinitely expanding light but with darkness that still dwells before it, and creatures that live there. This is the section where the Four Kaio govern their own associated cardinal direction holding countless galaxies.

(Daizenshuu 4)
"The infinitely expanding universe is determined mainly by the direction that each king manages, and the place managed by the king is supervised by the king of the world, and the gods of the north, south, east, and west manage the Universe. Ultimately, the Great King God is supposed to oversee the whole world."

What lies beyond, is the 'Unobservable Universe.' We call it Unobservable, because it's stated to be beyond the Stars and contain no light, and it is the same place where Yakon was stated to come from and reside in, and the place that they fought him in.

And we know that this place HAS to be beyond the edge of the Observable Universe that we see in Super, since it's littered by stars and light. It's in the Unobservable Universe that lays beyond. There are no contradictions, everything is in line with the show.

Now, for the scans on the infinite nature of the entirety of the Living World:

"An infinite space of light and darkness where the unknown lives" (Daizenshuu 4)

"An endless space that envelops all celestial bodies that exist in this world." (Daizenshuu 7)


People read incomplete Daizenshuu pages at surface level, see that it refers to both a Universe that is infinitely expanding and outright infinite, and falsely conclude that it has inconsistencies. This is false. The same people do this and end up thinking that the DB Universe only has 4 galaxies.
Read all available information, and with the proper context provided you will understand how the DB cosmology works. It's a cosmology that contains both an infinitely expanding Universe, and an infinite Universe.

And it's backed up by the show itself, through Yakon and his home planet and the edge of the Observable Universe being lit with stars.

outside of my points about this said darkness not being seen when we see the actual universe from outside, you are using the guide to conclude that a statement in the show is talking about something that is said in the guide to support the guide? is that it?

 

[omegabronic]

Sigh, blatant ignorance and arguementum infinitum. Leaving the topic now and will suggest to leave as well. No need to argue over something that has already been discussed and everything has been said, unless adding a new arguement or scan (in this thread).

agreed

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

outside of my points about this said darkness not being seen when we see the actual universe from outside, you are using the guide to conclude that a statement in the show is talking about something that is said in the guide to support the guide? is that it?

basically the guides state behind the observable universe lies an infinite darkness and this is supported by the canon material

Sigh, blatant ignorance and arguementum infinitum. Leaving the topic now and will suggest to leave as well. No need to argue over something that has already been discussed and everything has been said, unless adding a new arguement or scan (in this thread).

all I asked you to do was prove it was contradicted but if you want to leave I won’t stop you farewell

 

[pineappleman]

outside of my points about this said darkness not being seen when we see the actual universe from outside, you are using the guide to conclude that a statement in the show is talking about something that is said in the guide to support the guide? is that it?

can you rephrase that