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It's amazing how Super is only making Neko Majin more plausible as time goes
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Dragon ball universe crt
- Thread starter Omegabronic
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- #402
yes this does matter, third parties are not as reliable as the main series itself, this is how we do it around here
Guacamolefletcher
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funny
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 1,988
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Can you prove that they're even a third party and that they're less reliable inherently? Still seems like a red herring, cause you're refusing to acknowledge the more consistent interpretation.
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- #405
first off i was talking about third parties in general and not anything in specific, second off, that is just how the wiki treats it, make a thread for it if you don't like it
Guacamolefletcher
Username Only- 1,988
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it's not about the secondary canon stuff, it's how you're applying it which is clearly incorrect
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- #407
the map has clear contradictions to the main series, plus we even see that it isn't used in the anime, there is nothing wrong about how i am treating it
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Dragon Ball Super map there and still in a new guide
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- #409
the dbs anime consistently does not use the map, we see this in everytime we see a universe from outside, the series has priority over any guide that is complementing it, plus point 2 showns the problems with the map
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It's from the anime, there's no use denying it, the anime doesn't show the entire macrocosm, it's useless to use that map and you've said it at least 1 million times.
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- #411
ok, you agree with point 1 then?
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No, I do not agree with anything in your topic, for the reasons already presented above.
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- #413
but you just agreed that using the macrocosm map for the is useless since the anime doesn't use it?
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I was referring to using the map of the observed living Universe, because it is useless, since there are no other plans and that is not what you understood.
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- #415
then i am still confused about what you said, but ok then i guess
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By the votes, it seems to me that the CRT is being accepted. Something is missing? Are we expecting someone in particular?
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Majority of staff members are in favor of the CRT from what I can tell.
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- #418
well, i was waiting to see what were the opinions of the people that, for the manga, we could use the kaioshin realm stated size it isn't contraidcted in the manga, but i guess we can apply this and i will make a separated thread for that later, the main point of this thread was the removal of the macrocosm map for scaling after all, all that is left now is just to recalc the value for the manga taking the timeframe accepted into account
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No, DD disagreed with this, this cannot be applied, there were arguments against it and we refuted your points, so you have to call in more team members to evaluate and AKM is needed here, without it this cannot be applied at all, as the same map is used in DBS via the latest canon guide and the anime map is incomplete, nor does it have the other realms, observed universe is useless, you should not use it under any circumstances, we already have a map and it is the only one accepted here, any change in the work is going against the author and we use composite cosmology.
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Look how amazing it is, we don't use anything from DBZ, the same map is used as in canon guides, classic Dragon Ball manga, super, and the new DBS guide, we don't use anything from DBZ, this knowledge of yours is flawed.
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- #421
DDM is one staff, we have been waiting for some days for more input on his part or on any other staff that could disagree, to have this on hold forever just because of one person doesn't make much sense when 3 admins and 1 mod already agreed with it
and i refuted your refutations
we already gave time to that, if no one else will come then it doesn't make sense to wait even more, if any other disagrees later on they can make a thread for it
he does not want to participate in db threads anymore, to wait for someone who doesn't even want to be here is not wise
seriously, see point 2 of the op please, the map being used or not has not effect on this whatsoever
there is nothing to say that the other realms would be visible in the first place, i will make a thread for the manga case
the map being accepted doesn't mean much when said map is completely contradictory in the size department, most staff already agreed with it not being on scale and thus unusable in the calculation department
okay, not for long i guess since both clearly use different universe maps
how much will it take for you to look at the second point in the original post?
2: the map is clearly not in scale, and you can clearly see the map makes the snake way, which is only 1.000.000 km long, is seemingly 2x the universe in height if put in a horizontal position, also king kai's planet, which is extremely small, is via this map only 14.25x smaller than the entire living universe, so even in the manga, it shouldn't be used to calc since it is clearly out of scale in size.
it using the map or not does not matter, besides the series itself takes priority over any guide, if the guide shows something completely different from the series, we simply ignore it
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1° My God is a super moderator and admin he is worth three or more team members who agreed to this
2°nd and no, you have not refuted our points, you are just going into denial, we have already proved to you that using the map of the observed Universe is useless, it does not contain other realms, they must be on the map to be accepted for everything to be calculated, without it the map is incomplete
3°rd anyway you'll have to wait, oh my god disagreed and arguments were refuted imposed on the OP, AKM is needed here for it to apply no matter how long it comes but it should be expected.
4° One of the team members said that she or he is needed here, without them nothing can be applied, as it was a discussion rule and as we see, My God disagreed.
5° Seriously? Again with that point? We have already refuted these points of yours, the map must present all realms to be accepted here, the Universe of DB is not normal like the others, where there are realms already clarified by guides, works, and out of interviews presented by Akira
6° the map of the observed universe is incomplete, you cannot see them in this observed universe, but you can see them during the work, which is really what is needed, you are just trying to downgrade cosmology with a map that is only seen three or two times in the work, which is strongly refuted by several guides, manga, and interviews, that the official map of cosmology has all kingdoms showing, you are just contracting all cosmology, I hope you understand.
7° At no time is the accepted map contracted, on the contrary, it is demonstrated several times during the work, yes I am aware that some employees agreed with this, but arguments were presented and their points were refuted, we need more team members. Yes, the map is to scale, no matter how you look at it, I did not contract the material, all kingdoms and the serpent's path have their size defined by the work itself, seeing the serpent's path in a way that presented does not refute the scale shown during years, we can see several Universes in the shape of a marble and does that disqualify them from being Universes? You're trying to impose something that goes against the work and that's it.
8° the same map is used to represent the entire macrocosm of Dragon Ball, the observed universe of the anime does not contract the map at all.
9° th last, your point of view is wrong, because the serpent's map has its size defined, so it's not the size of the universe or something like that, this is the worst argument I've ever seen to unmask the Dragon Ball map, your second point or whatever you call it is not very good, it depends on how you look at the size of the serpent's path, I'll give you an example, you look at a mountain from afar and it looks smaller than you and now you go there and look she up close she 100 times her size, how is that an argument to refute the map?
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- #423
that is not how it works, he did not even disagreed with the op completely, only on the "map is not on scale" part, and did not said anything on the point 1 of the op
that was me saying in a subtle way that you saying to me that i was refuted proves nothing and serves nothing, i can say the exact same thing to you, if all you are going to do is say to me that i was "refuted" then don't even bother talking since that doesn't help and it isn't an argument
again, nothing indicates that the realms would be visible in the first place, we are going in circles
again, saying that the arguments were refuted is not an argument
do you really think that it ethically okay to bother someone who made very clear that he didn't wanted to participate in this kind of thread anymore? no, we will not wait for him since he doesn't want to even be here
so? Klol said that yes, but if even when we gave them time none of them gave much input, we can just move on, if they have problems with the conclusions they can make a new thread for this topic later
they are not that much higher up dude, they are important yes, but their input is not the "begin and end all discussion" kind of thing
can you please stop with the jokes?
none of this is relevant to the points, the realms do not need to be seeable since indicates that they would in the first place
that is not the map of the observable universe, it is a map of the universe
numerous times, definetely far more than 2 or 3 times, plus you are suggesting a map that never appeared in the work even once
that contradict the actual series when we actually see it
no i am not, you are contradicting the series by using a map that is clearly not the one used and that it is contradictory to the material even before super
it was accepted by that it is contradictory in the size department, by @Maverick_Zero_X @Damage3245 @LordGriffin1000 and @Theglassman12 in the work itself it has contradictions, unless you are suggesting that king kai's planet is only 14.25x the size of the entire universe?
you are not the one to decide that, you pressented your arguments, they didn't change their minds, you believing that it was doesn't mean that it actually was
we waited for more staff members, i posted on their message walls, they didn't come, and waiting for even more time seems silly, if any of them have problems with this, they can make their own threads later
so the snake way is half the universe in size even tho it is described as having only 1.000.000km in length?
the realms don't have, we currently use the map to calc their sizes, which as agreed by numerous people here and staff, is a no go, if you want to upgrade their sizes later, you can try, but this thread is not for that
when did i ever said anything similar to that?
i can say the exact same thing to you
show me a scene in the show itself that uses that map, no guide, but the dbs anime in of itself, and even then, point 2 still stands no matter what
which is why the macrocosm map is wrong, since it makes the snake way that big
if the map was accurate we wouldn't see the snake way nor the kai's planets in the afterlife, your example is not aplicable here since these two things are utterly minuscule in comparisson to even a planet, much less a universe
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- #424
either way, i am going to request the recalc in the calc request thread now, just to be sure that everything is done correctly and put in a blog, thanks everyone who helped here
edit: wait a moment, can i even ask for recalcs in the calc requesting thread? is that allowed?
edit: wait a moment, can i even ask for recalcs in the calc requesting thread? is that allowed?
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My God
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hey damage, since you are a calc member and an admin i get that you can answer me on this, are recalcs allowed to be asked in the calculations request thread? nothing on the op of that thread says that it is, but i want to be sure
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I think you can request a calc to be calced on there, even if somebody else has already calced it.
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Meudeus, Can you tag other team members to see the counterarguments? Please, it's really hard to debate with Omega, he gets repetitive and circular arguments.
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- #430
just requested, now we wait
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Just a heads up, I still overall disagree with the main thing that would result in the potential downgrade. And even if we assumed baseline or 3x baseline, the feat still be like 5 or 10x that given that still need to take account that the starting point of the explosion was near the edge.
Plus, I think we should ignore things like "Snake Way being 1/4th the diameter of other world" or "We only see a few galaxies in the living universe bubble", not that the Otherworld's Bubble is much bigger than Living Universe's bubble or that the pancake of the living universe is still much larger than the sphere of the observable universe located in the edge of the full sized living universe.
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I really completely agree with that
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Did you ever find that statement regarding the Observable Universe in Dragon Ball?
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- #434
yeah absolutely, i never argued for baseline, maybe the manga if the timeframe affects it, but that is more of an calc thing than anything else, and even then it will probably still be above baseline
well, it is also 2x the living universe in height if put on a horizontal position
that was not an argument used ever, that was used to show that the anime of dbs straight up doesn't use the macrocosm map at all
i....i am kind of confused but what you said here
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There was the Bulma statement I shared earlier in the thread about "Earth being at the edge and we would need to be in the center of the universe to make a full scale visual of the whole universe." Not that it's specifically mentioning observable universe, but the statement alone should be common knowledge that despite having telescope and space travel technology far, which would imply they should have technology capable of reaching well beyond 47 lightyears in visual site seeing. They still can't see anything beyond a spec within the full universe.
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How do we know their Observable Universe is the same as ours though? Since they can tell that they're at the edge of the Universe and we can't, that suggests differences.
I’m debating against someone who is scaling Goku as outer. Can someone help me counter the 5D afterlife argument?
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There's kind of no way to debate that Akira toriyama still mentions that Gods are transcendent, not that I agree with that, but that's just the way it is, it's just that vsbttles doesn't use quotes like Extradimensionals or quotes transcending all dimensions, but it depends on the wiki you use it and sometimes it's accepted, because it's not the same system
But this is no time to cuss lol
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This is unnecessary. Don't address other debaters like this.
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First, the best way to answer that is to go over what an "Observable Universe" is. An "Observable Universe" by definition isn't even close to being a full universe not even IRL. It simply means the spherical range of sit from the central observer. The "Observable Universe" is from Earth in this case in which based on our latest telescope technology, we can see up to 47 lightyears away. But none of the omni directions have even reached "The physical edge of the universe." For all we know, the universe isn't even a sphere but it's more pancake or coin shaped. Imagine having a marble and a pancake. And the pancake is taller than the marble even when lying flat, but it's other two dimensions are much longer. That's the true gap between the size of our "Observable universe we discovered and still expanding" and how big the rest of the universe is.
Dragon Ball not only has far more advanced technology both via better telescopes and ships/drones actually capable of moving many times faster than light; which the observable universe we discovered despite us going off the theory that FTL travel is scientifically impossible. There's literally 0 reason for Dragon Ball's Observable universe to be any smaller than ours; if any thing it should logically be much faster given the expensive telescope range that can be accomplished and flashes of light that expand faster than light. And on top of that, their marble is specifically hidden in the edge of the pancake but still can be perfectly enclosed where as in ours the marble could be anywhere within the pancake whether it be the center or the edge. And it's still easily far above baseline 3-A regardless.
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