Dragon Ball Super - Super Hero Key and profile additions (SPOILERS!!)

[Omegas03]

I have them in the same ballpark honestly

(and i don't like that debate bc ppl would usually flame you if you say that Jiren is even remotely comparable to Gogeta Blue).

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Either way, they're in the same ballpark

 

[Eseseso]

I think Gogeta Blue is on par with FP Jiren, since Gogeta stomped someone >= a GoD so he's on the same level.

 

[ΚΟΜΙΞ]

The scaling is very simple, how can there be so much discussion?
Cell max is stated by toriyama to be above broly (before you say he wasn't completed, hedo in the movie states that he is completed physically but not mentally so he is still comparable). So cell max, orange piccolo and gohan beast are all "At least low 2-C" and this is the scaling chain:
Gohan beast >> gamma 2 suicide > cell max => broly > orange piccolo.

Next up the gammas. The gammas were stated to be comparable to Goku and vegeta, as of now, goku and vegeta are capped at SSB casually and UI at past the limits. So gammas should at least scale above SSB Goku and Vegeta.
So low 2-C and this scales to the gammas, Super saiyan and ultimage Gohan, base piccolo and potential unleashed piccolo.

And before you say piccolo can't sense Goku and vegeta, he can still sense hikari broly who contest blue Goku and piccolo saw the fight. He could also sense kefla and somehow sign 1 Goku.

This post sums up everything really good.

 

[Eseseso]

The scaling is very simple, how can there be so much discussion?
Cell max is stated by toriyama to be above broly (before you say he wasn't completed, hedo in the movie states that he is completed physically but not mentally so he is still comparable). So cell max, orange piccolo and gohan beast are all "At least low 2-C" and this is the scaling chain:
Gohan beast >> gamma 2 suicide > cell max => broly > orange piccolo.

Next up the gammas. The gammas were stated to be comparable to Goku and vegeta, as of now, goku and vegeta are capped at SSB casually and UI at past the limits. So gammas should at least scale above SSB Goku and Vegeta.
So low 2-C and this scales to the gammas, Super saiyan and ultimage Gohan, base piccolo and potential unleashed piccolo.

And before you say piccolo can't sense Goku and vegeta, he can still sense hikari broly who contest blue Goku and piccolo saw the fight. He could also sense kefla and somehow sign 1 Goku.

Excellent.

 

[Eseseso]

Now I hope Black Frieza appears in the anime so we can debate which is stronger: Black Frieza or Beast Gohan?

 

[Greenshifter]

Would Cell Max scale above current Broly who trained for like 4 years?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Would Cell Max scale above current Broly who trained for like 4 years?

Yes since it's an author statement but it won't change anything because we have no clue how strong he is.

 

[Greenshifter]

So we're not gonna assume Broly got at least 2 times stronger over a period of 4 YEARS?

 

[Eseseso]

Btw could someone provide like a video or something of Beerus being scared of Broly?

Also, without looking at tier differences, scaling wise who'd win, Black Frieza or Gohan Beast?

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

Btw could someone provide like a video or something of Beerus being scared of Broly?

Also, without looking at tier differences, scaling wise who'd win, Black Frieza or Gohan Beast?

I am too lazy and busy to look.
Impossible to know without knowing how black freeza compares to DBS SH Goku and vegeta.

So we're not gonna assume Broly got at least 2 times stronger over a period of 4 YEARS?

My head canon is that Hidden power Jiren and UI Goku already bridge the 2x gap over beerus but the wiki doesn't accept the logic. Unquantifiable scaling won't do. We need either one character scaling above the combined might of two OR a big enough multiplier.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

So we're not gonna assume Broly got at least 2 times stronger over a period of 4 YEARS?

The wiki recognizes it as an unquantifiable jump in power

 

[Omegas03]

We should get the profiles updated, may we call AKM to see if he agrees with the changes?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Someone summarize what has been agreed on

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Scaling, I mean. We know that Gohan, Piccolo, and the Gammas get Low 2-C. I wanna know the scaling chain

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

The scaling is very simple, how can there be so much discussion?
Cell max is stated by toriyama to be above broly (before you say he wasn't completed, hedo in the movie states that he is completed physically but not mentally so he is still comparable). So cell max, orange piccolo and gohan beast are all "At least low 2-C" and this is the scaling chain:
Gohan beast >> gamma 2 suicide > cell max => broly > orange piccolo.

Next up the gammas. The gammas were stated to be comparable to Goku and vegeta, as of now, goku and vegeta are capped at SSB casually and UI at past the limits. So gammas should at least scale above SSB Goku and Vegeta.
So low 2-C and this scales to the gammas, Super saiyan and ultimage Gohan, base piccolo and potential unleashed piccolo.

And before you say piccolo can't sense Goku and vegeta, he can still sense hikari broly who contest blue Goku and piccolo saw the fight. He could also sense kefla and somehow sign 1 Goku.

 

[Aachintya31]

Even if Goku and co become infinitely stronger they would still be low 2-C

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I'm gonna dispute Cell Max scaling to Broly cuz Toriyama's statement implies he was not on his level. And given how insistent they were with Kale and Broly that controlling berserk power makes it stronger, it seems like Toriyama was implying that a proper mind would make Cell Max...well, stronger. And therefore superior to Broly. But he didn't have said proper mind, so...

At the very least, Cell Max scales above Orange Piccolo, who scales far above the Gammas, who are comparable to Goku and Vegeta

 

[Aachintya31]

I'm gonna dispute Cell Max scaling to Broly cuz Toriyama's statement implies he was not on his level. And given how insistent they were with Kale and Broly that controlling berserk power makes it stronger, it seems like Toriyama were implying that a proper mind would make Cell Max...well, stronger. And therefore superior to Broly. But he didn't have said proper mind, so...

Yes ki control is Also a major factor in strength which is well established in Dragon ball , from Goku learning how to control his ki leaks to attain ssb , a calm mind is required for greater strength be it kaioken or ultra instinct.
There is no point in mixing toriyama's statement and Dr.Hedo's comment to get low 2-C

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

There is no point in mixing toriyama's statement and Dr.Hedo's comment to get low 2-C

You mean scaling to Broly. That would be At least Low 2-C or "half 2-C"

The Gammas, by Piccolo's admission, are comparable to Goku and Vegeta, therefore making them Low 2-C. And then there's a scaling chain from there

Tldr they are indeed Low 2-C just not unquantifably higher into the tier

 

[Nullflowerblush]

I'm gonna dispute Cell Max scaling to Broly cuz Toriyama's statement implies he was not on his level. And given how insistent they were with Kale and Broly that controlling berserk power makes it stronger, it seems like Toriyama was implying that a proper mind would make Cell Max...well, stronger. And therefore superior to Broly. But he didn't have said proper mind, so...

Cell Max does have a proper mind. He is capable of holding his own against the Earth's mightiest defenders and take down the likes of the Gammas and Piccolo, as well as unleash lasers from every orifice of his body and create energy blasts the size of continents on a whim. No dialogue suggests that Cell Max was mentally inept, just that he was not successfully controlled, which is what Toriyama acknowledged as his ultimate downfall.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I wasn't trying to imply he was mentally inept. I was saying that he was berserk. And given that controlling their berserk power was shown or said to make the two other powerful berserk fighters (Kale and Broly) stronger, we can apply the same logic to Cell Max. Maybe coulda worded it better

 

[FluffyCreatureZ]

I wasn't trying to imply he was mentally inept. I was saying that he was berserk. And given that controlling their berserk power was shown or said to make the two other powerful berserk fighters (Kale and Broly) stronger, we can apply the same logic to Cell Max. Maybe coulda worded it better

Dumb logic because broly at his strongest is also a berserker.

 

[Eseseso]

How close are we to concluding?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Dumb logic because broly at his strongest is also a berserker.

According to this, Broly would be much stronger if he could control his power. That and I'm pretty sure that's what he's being trained for.

Plus, the same thing happened to Kale, who had the same issue. She was berserk, but became even stronger upon controlling her power. In fact, the two have basically the same transformation

 

[Omegas03]

The scaling should go just as

Orange Piccolo >>>> DBSSH Ultimate Gohan >~ FP Gammas ~ DBSSH SSB Goku > Ultimate Piccolo > Initial Gammas ~ DBSB SSB Goku >>>>> "Rusty" SSJ Gohan > Piccolo > Base Gohan ~ Base Goku.

Piccolo compared the initial power of the gammas to SSB Goku, then he was confident as Ultimate/Yellow Piccolo to defeat Gamma 2. or at least Gammas ~ DBSB SSB but Ultimate Piccolo still backscales from him.

Gamma 2's suicide move, Cell Max and Gohan Beast are trickier though.

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

Why is SSB on there twice

The rivals are only compared to initial Gamma 2

 

[Braking]

Why is SSB on there twice

ssb goku (broly movie) and ssb goku (super hero)

 

[Omegas03]

I put DBS Broly SSB and theoretical DBS Super Hero SSB, although the latest one is kinda redundant but the point is clear

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

They don't clarify anything regarding that so it shouldn't be there

 

[BluudyManikin777]

What's the consensus on Goku and Vegeta might not have been able to defeat Cell Max?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

What's the consensus on Goku and Vegeta might not have been able to defeat Cell Max?

The statement holds true

 

[BluudyManikin777]

That's being used here

I mean it would be safe to assume Gohan was accounting for TOP UI Goku right? If so, then Cell should be "at least Low 2-C" as well as Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast
So much upscaling that there should be more 2-C already

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

I mean it would be safe to assume Gohan was accounting for TOP UI Goku right? If so, then Cell should be "at least Low 2-C" as well as Orange Piccolo and Gohan Beast

no

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

So much upscaling that there should be more 2-C already

The consensus is that one must scale to the joint effort of the 2-C feat

For instance, clashing with two Destroyers at the same time

 

[BluudyManikin777]

The consensus is that one must scale to the joint effort of the 2-C feat

So even with a 2x multiplier the character in question is still at half 2-C?

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

So even with a 2x multiplier the character in question is still at half 2-C?

There's no stated multipliers in the half 2-C scaling chain

 

[BluudyManikin777]

There's no stated multipliers in the half 2-C scaling

It was just a hypothetical question

 

[Sir_Marvulous]

It was just a hypothetical question

Multipliers are weird in tier 2 so I have no idea

 

[Omegas03]

I think they should stay in at least Low 2-C until higher feats are demostrated. Otherwise you can perfectly put an Gogeta Blue with Kaioken's boost at 2-C