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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 86

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Omegas03 said:
AwkguyDB said:
lol It was GT wank that was hilarious. SSJ4 Gogeta was defended as, and I quote, "Comparable to Zeno in feats."
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Yeah because Gogeta totally did something comparable to destroying 18 universes at once with raw power.
@PFM18

Goku was stated to break his limits when he acquired UI though, other than that his perfomance in Ep 123 shows that he got stronger after UI.
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....are you referring to the "limit breaking power" comment by the narrator? When Goku went Kaioken and Vegeta went SSBE? That's obviously what that was referring to. And again, if Goku had drawn his power increases from UI, how did Vegeta catch up? Vegeta didn't break limits with UI Omen like Goku did.
 
Steve Rogers1 said:
It's not just some wild claim. Goku flat out got stronger to the point SSB alone could do better against a stronger Jiren than his 109 SSB Kaioken x20.
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That isn't relevant to this conversation. I am discussing WHY people think he got stronger, which seems to be that he went through the "limit breaks" of going UI Omen, which I am trying to understand.
 
...Except the dialogue from the characters also flat out states multiple times that the characters broke through their limits?

Also, how is direct proof of Goku being stronger post-UI Omen not relevant to the discussion of why people think that Goku got stronger from UI Omen?
 
A Stoned Orc said:
...Except the dialogue from the characters also flat out states multiple times that the characters broke through their limits?

Also, how is direct proof of Goku being stronger post-UI Omen not relevant to the discussion of why people think that Goku got stronger from UI Omen?
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"broke their limits" is never used in a sense that is Goku's growth in power, just related to UI or Kaioken.

Because THAT he got stronger, is not proof of WHY he got stronger. They are different things.
 
Kid Buu because it is the last one the Heroes fought as a villain and the Anime repeatedly stated he's the strongest.
 
I can't wait for the level of bulshit that will be needed for Goku to become stronger than Whis, if the whole TOP '1 million time stronger in 48 minutes' thing is any indication, it's going to be wild.
 
People, do ya think a Hypothetical MUI Vegito or Gogeta could rival the GP like some guys in Youtube believe?
 
No. Goku and Vegeta have displayed nowhere near the level of skill or prowess of Whis, let alone Grand Priest. I'm pretty sure even if MUI Fusion was comparable in raw power, it would still be curbstomped by the Grand Priest in a fight.

I think Goku can reasonably reach Whis-level once he has mastered Ultra Instinct, but for his fusion to match up to Grand Priest, they would need more hax and Vegeta needs to contribute power to it.

Now, if the anime comes back and we get UI Gogeta with Vegeta's Spirit Mastery? THAT might be able to scratch the Grand Priest. You'd be taking UI Goku = SC Vegeta then fusing it into Gogeta, who is vastly superior AND stacks those two powers.
 
Also, in hindsight Ultra Instinct is all about mastering your physical capabilities, whereas Spirit Control seems to be about mastery of your ki capabilities. So if we merged them together, you would have a master of both, which creates far greater argument for a Post-Moro Gogeta to be nearing the Grand Priest's skill.
 
Spirit control is just redundant given what we were told about ki, it's the classic fanfiction issue of trying to fix something that doesn't need fixing or to look clever by introducing some kind of duality when Canon already had a single energy that did both.
 
Question, how strong would manga SS Broly and SS Gogeta be for their combined energy surpassing the 'boundaries of the universe'? Would that be considered a 3-A or Low 2-C statement?
 
CryoTheMayo said:
To my understanding, Spirit Control is nothing more than Ki being refined to its highest degree.
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It's redundant with what everyone has been doing to become stronger since the start IMO.

Also does that happen in the manga ?
 
AKM sama said:
ZERO7772 said:
What is the most cancerous debate in Dragon Ball?
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Which Buu is stronger
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Easy it's Kid Buu

Because Kid Buu was the one............

To absorb Xeno Dabura and fused with Xeno Janemba to make Xeno Janembuu and basically became a Multiversal entity.
 
It's different, because it focuses heavily on the Ki Control aspects and achieving inner potential via meditation. The only other times people have tapped into their latent potential is temporary via rage, magic that unlocks potential (Guru and Elder Kai) or breaking their limits via transformations or UI.

It seems like Spirit Control enables you to unleash your potential, similarly to Elder Kai's RItual, but it's something you can train to achieve. It also seems to grant a far more refined control, resulting in your Ki being far stronger, far faster to charge and capable of learning more difficult techniques that require higher manipulation (Shifting for Instant Transmission, Splitting for Cloning, Growing for Gigantification and ??? for Healing). So it's basically a bulk package of benefits to master and refine.

I assume you are asking about what I said about Gogeta and Broly? The film and novel are canon to both the anime and the manga.
 
@A stoned Orc

Yes, exactly. Or, more generally it can be attributed to the general "saiyan hax" whether ir be mid-battle growth kr zenkais themselves. Which is why I wonder why this site seems to attribute it to UI Omen, especially since they attribute growth to Vegeta who never got UI.
 
Hey Y'all I wasn't sure if you guys seen the new SDBH Manga chapters but like........dang. Some Potential Upgrades but here's the Official Manga Summary translated. This btw is the final chapter of the DDRM Saga and a new series is going to be starting soon, probably the teased Big Bang Mission.


Super Dragon Ball Heroes: Dark Demon Realm Mission! Chapter 17 ― Final Chapter
Date: February 1, 2020, Saikyð¥╠ä Jump March 2020 issue
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Illustration page text: A story 5 million years in the making ... finally comes to an end!!
A final, decisive battle with time itself on the line!!

Summary: Trunks, the Kaið¥╠äshin of Time, Old Kaið¥╠äshin, and Tokitoki awaken in a dark void. Scenes of their battles in other timelines hover around them in fog-like wisps. The Kaið¥╠äshin of Time explains that Mechickaboola is absorbing time itself. If this keeps up, the world will be ruined.

Old Kaið¥╠äshin asserts the need to find a way out, as a chain flies out from a pinhole of light far above him and smacks him square in the face. The chain splits into four and wraps itself around each of the characters, pulling them up toward the light. The fourth link of chains extends further downward, collecting someone outside of view.

Back in the former Time Nest—now itself mostly rubble and void—Demigra pulls the heroes, along with Towa, by happenstance, out of Mechickaboola's chest. The chains retreat into his staff. The Kaið¥╠äshin of Time is shocked by the identity of their savior, and questions how he can be capable of such powers as a user of dark magic. Demigra explains that he used his wish on Dark Shen Long, resurrected from the Dragon Balls they gathered from the GT timeline, to wish for the kind of power that could stand up to Mechickaboola—the power of light. (Demigra got a power amp and new ability)

However, as he had spent so much time infusing himself with dark power, Demigra is uncapable of using the powers of light to their fullest potential. Mechickaboola breaks free from his chains. Demigra asks the Kaið¥╠äshin of Time, whom he refers to as Chronoa, about the Keysword. She should have received it from Robel. The Kaið¥╠äshin of Time tells him it was tossed away somewhere by Mechickaboola.

Frustrated by their current circumstances, Demigra desperately fires another chain toward Mechickaboola, but Trunks tells him they still have a way to fight back, powering up into Super Saiyan God. Trunks attacks in combination with Demigra's chains and lands an attack with his sword on Mechickaboola's chest. However, Mechickaboola instantly recovers from the damage. Having absorbed the time itself, he is now capable of limitless Regenerationn. (Is this an upgrade for his Immortality to type 3 or even 5)

As the heroes wonder how to fight an essentially immortal foe, a rift in time opens behind them. Robel, Chamel, and the rest of the Time Patrol step through. Pan jeers at Mechickaboola for playing dirty as Goten cheers her on. Goku emerges holding the Keysword.

The Kaið¥╠äshin of Time and Demigra shout simultaneously to their respective allies to buy them time for the Kaið¥╠äshin of Time to recharge the Keysword. Goku and Vegeta take a pair of Potara Earrings off of Old Kaið¥╠äshin, earlier knocked unconscious by the chains.

Goten powers up into Super Saiyan and he and Pan fire shots at Mechickaboola. Mechickaboola easily blocks them, but leaves an opening for Gohan, powered up into Super Saiyan 4, to attack. Mechickaboola stops Gohan's kick, but his subsequent blast against Gohan is blocked by a combination of Robel and Chamel's magic, allowing the Saiyan to retreat.

Super Saiyan 4 Vegetto rushes in and lands successful physical and ki-based attacks against Mechickaboola. Mechickaboola is impressed by this mere mortal's strength, but proclaims all attacks ineffective against his newly immortal state. (Vegetto Profile when?)

Mechickaboola is stopped once again by Demigra's chains, as he and Vegetto look down to see that the Kaið¥╠äshin of Time has finished recharging the Keysword, wielded by Super Saiyan God Trunks.

Mechickaboola taunts them, saying that even if a strengthened sword can resist his dark powers, it means nothing without the ability to do damage. He can simply regenerate from any attack they can land.

Demigra pulls Mechickaboola toward the sword, and Trunks strikes. At first the blow seems ineffective, but a large seal baring the Kaið¥╠äshin of Time's crest soon appears across Mechickaboola's chest. Trunks and the others have combined all four of the power of the gods, the power of darkness, the power of light, and the power of time in order to seal Mechickaboola away. Trunks strikes him one more time with the sword, sealing him in an "Eternal Labyrinth." Mechickaboola vows to escape as a rift in space-time closes in on him, but the portal seals him away before he can finish cursing the Time Patrol's name. (WE NEED A TRUNKS PROFILE)'

The team celebrates its victory, but Chamel points out that they remain trapped in a dark, ruined world. The Kaið¥╠äshin of Time admits that the time Mechickaboola swallowed up was sealed away along with him, and she has no way of restoring it on her own. Pan breaks down crying. Tokitoki lets out a cry and assumes a giant form, hovering over a now-restored Time Nest. (Tokitoki restored Time)

Old Kaið¥╠äshin, now awake, explains that this is the true form and power of Tokitoki, the one who rules over time. However, it is not merely his work, but the work of the Kaið¥╠äshin of Time who so diligently raised him, that has led to these auspicious results.

The heroes celebrate anew. Cracks begin to appear in Chamel and Robel's skin—the result of the Time Nest's restored seal. Demigra orders a retreat while promising to one day take the throne of Kaið¥╠äshin of Time for himself. The Time Patrol vows to stop him. Recommitting to fighting for the sake of time, they strike their victory pose—to Pan's confusion and Vegeta's frustration.

The Kaið¥╠äshin of Time chastises Vegeta for not going along with the pose, and Pan says she wants to learn too.

Old Kaið¥╠äshin waves goodbye beside Tokitoki as the narration promises that the Time Patrol's adventures have not yet come to an end. Next issue, could it be ... ?

Series end
 
See, this is the problem with Heroes, each version of the story uses the same basic set of plot points to tell a different narrative.

Game Mechikabura had already destroyed space-time prior to this, he was 'only' absorbing the remains of the universe.

Game Demigra wished for the ability to undo Mechikabura's brainwashing as Dark Shenron wasn't strong enough to do anything to Mechikabura directly. His contribution to the final battle was helping Chronoa power the Key Sword, since she alone couldn't provide enough. Obviously this means he wasn't the one to get the group out of the black hole, that was the result of Xeno Bardock using the Key Sword.

Game Mechikabura isn't immortal, he's just so strong that nobody can do any damage.

While Trunks defeating Mechikabura happened in the game, the defeat itself worked differently. Trunks used the Key Sword to seal Mechikabura's Time Power Unleashed transformation, allowing Xeno Vegito to pummel him back into his base form. Trunks then sealed his youth, weakening him enough to allow Chronoa (not Trunks) to seal him in the 'Labyrinth of Light'.


I don't care that the profiles are compositing feats from incompatible media, go right ahead, I just want to point out the fact.

(Also the next manga arc will be an adaptation of the storyline in the Big Bang Missions)
 
We used to have a Xeno Trunks profile (Ironically he used to be the only DBH profile) but he was deleted due to being considered to not match the standards.
 
Hst master said:
We used to have a Xeno Trunks profile (Ironically he used to be the only DBH profile) but he was deleted due to being considered to not match the standards.
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How? He's literally Xeno Goku but stronger and with a little more hax thanks to the Key Sword lol
 
The GP probability manipulation thread is just going in circle at this point.

If feel those thread lose motivated revision thread are really petty.
 
Okay is there anything that would show the rationale of expaining Goku's power increases in the ToP referenced in the wiki? I am curious what the argument is used exactly. I hope it's not the proverbial "SeththeProgrammer" argument, and the only blog I have seen about it doesn't seem very logically coherent with respect to Goku's growth. As far as I'm concerned, the evidence of his growth in the ToP is limited to:

-Two comments, one made by Caulifla and one made by Goku, implying Goku's growth in between/during the fights.

-Jiren felt compelled to use more power in 123 against Goku's SSB, than he did against 1st Omen Goku in 110. His power used is a form of respect for him, so we have reason to believe he wouldn't use much more than he needs for the most part.

-Vegeta explained at the end of the ToP, that "us Saiyans have broken our limits time and time again!" and it shows flashbacks to various characters. It is possible this could be used to reference Goku's growth in the tournament rather than just breaking his limits by achieveing Ultra Instinct Omen/Ultra Instinct, which itself is the rationalization for UI being so obscenely powerful, that he "has broken his limits" when he uses it.

-BR SSB Gogeta>>>>>Ft arc SSB Vegetto clearly being true.

With the final one being the most compelling evidence. We sort of NEED ToP growth to be true for this to make sense, Given that LSSJ Broly>>>>>>>Merged Zamasu, but I only see so much. corroborating evidence, and I'd like to see if there are stronger arguments that I am not seeing.
 
I think we've more or less assumed, due to that corraborating evidence and the sheer power boost UI gave him, that normal Goku became stronger as a byproduct of achieveing that state. There's also the very large evidence of base Goku keeping up with and fighting SS2 Caulifla post-UIO, even doing damage, when previously it was shown their SS2 forms were comparable; and a more flimsy statement, from when Goku stands back up to help Freeza and 17 against Jiren at the end of the tournament, yet another comment about them all having broken their limits was made by Goku himself to Freeza.
 
Dominodalek said:
See, this is the problem with Heroes, each version of the story uses the same basic set of plot points to tell a different narrative.

Game Mechikabura had already destroyed space-time prior to this, he was 'only' absorbing the remains of the universe.

Game Demigra wished for the ability to undo Mechikabura's brainwashing as Dark Shenron wasn't strong enough to do anything to Mechikabura directly. His contribution to the final battle was helping Chronoa power the Key Sword, since she alone couldn't provide enough. Obviously this means he wasn't the one to get the group out of the black hole, that was the result of Xeno Bardock using the Key Sword.

Game Mechikabura isn't immortal, he's just so strong that nobody can do any damage.

While Trunks defeating Mechikabura happened in the game, the defeat itself worked differently. Trunks used the Key Sword to seal Mechikabura's Time Power Unleashed transformation, allowing Xeno Vegito to pummel him back into his base form. Trunks then sealed his youth, weakening him enough to allow Chronoa (not Trunks) to seal him in the 'Labyrinth of Light'.


I don't care that the profiles are compositing feats from incompatible media, go right ahead, I just want to point out the fact.

(Also the next manga arc will be an adaptationthe Big Bang Missions)
Click to expand...
Wasnt Mechikabura too much for anyone even before he absorbed the black hole thing? Could swear he said something like Gogeta was like a compared to him or something.
 
ZERO7772 said:
Wasnt Mechikabura too much for anyone even before he absorbed the black hole thing? Could swear he said something like Gogeta was like a compared to him or something.
Click to expand...
It's unclear whether Gogeta was actually present in the game (we don't get any confirmed forms/fusions besides TPU Chronoa and SS3 Bardock) but yes, after regaining his youth he compared the Time Patrol to infants and casually one-shot Chronoa and Trunks. The Time Patrol (and Demigra) had a rematch against him after freeing Chronoa from his control, but he was still too powerful and they were forced to flee to the Time Nest.

Funnily enough, the only time they ever defeated Mechikabura in straight-up combat without hax was their first battle with him, where they forced him and his army to flee back to the Demon Realm.
 
Goku became stronger from learning UIS, the same way he became stronger and imprinted the power of SSG when he first used it.

I don't think Goku will grow any stronger by using UIS/UI in the future. He already imprinted his increased capabilities, with his body adapting to the heightened state.

I feel as if Ultra Instinct will only enable Goku to rapidly adapt his skills and fighting style to opponents, rather than increase his physical parameters, once we see it again.

So basically, I'm claiming Post-ToP UI Goku would have Reactive Evolution, for skill, similarly to Hit.
 
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