Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 86

[CryoTheMayo]

Obviously they just learned the Multi-Form technique. But Goten and Trunks seem to have pooled their energies together to create a Gotenks clone, which is pretty impressive.

This makes the Goten + Trunks duo far more formiddable, now that they can form armies of Gotenks copies.

 

[PFM18]

If we just took Base Goku's speed against Frieza and assumed SS2 was at least 2x SS we get:

• Base Goku = FTL (2x)
• SS Goku = MFTL (100x)
• SS2 Goku = MFTL (200x)

Super Saiyan 3 should be much faster than Super Saiyan 2, but let's low-ball things massively by claiming SSG is as strong as SS2 and take the fact that SSB is SSG x SS

• SSB Goku = MFTL+ (10,000x)

And, of course, X10 and X20 SSB Goku would be 100,000 to 200,000x FTL.

It's overall impossible to claim Goku isn't MFTL+ in Super, you'd have to grossly lowball him to the lowest degree imaginable. This isn't even considering things like UIS (which is considered at least 40x Blue) or all of the power increases he would have had between Namek and the ToP for his base form, that would make far faster.

I mean Base Goku. What is the basis for Base Goku being MFTL+ other than the claim that he scales to a casual Beerus because SSG Goku scales to the suppressed Beerus he fought. I understand that people on this site seem to believe(for some reason) that Base Goku>BoG SSG, but I have already explained why I doubt BoG SSG Goku scaling to Beerus's speed when he caught up to Whis trying to get food for him.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

The fact that Base Goku post-SSG is vastly stronger than he ever was as a SSJ3, which as Cryo explained, should already be pushing more than 200x FTL (or MFTL).

So Base Goku, ignoring the previous scaling chain from the movies, should be far faster than 200 c (MFTL) in Super, at least several tens of thousands of times if he doesn't scale to Beerus.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Post-SSG SS Goku is as strong as he was with SSG, so with my scaling (SSG = SS2), a hyper lowballed Base Goku would be at least 4x FTL.

However, it has been calculated that Goku (after absorbing SSG) became at least twice as powerful, meaning Base Goku would actually be at least 8x FTL.

So, even if I low ball Goku down to assuming he never grew stronger after Namek, and SSG was only as strong as SS2, Goku should still end up at 8x FTL prior to his training under Whis.

 

[PFM18]

The fact that Base Goku post-SSG is vastly stronger than he ever was as a SSJ3, which as Cryo explained, should already be pushing more than 200x FTL (or MFTL).
So Base Goku, ignoring the previous scaling chain from the movies, should be far faster than 200 c (MFTL) in Super, at least several tens of thousands of times if he doesn't scale to Beerus.

I mean are there any feats alone that place him that high in Super? Scaling from previous feats is a different thing.

However, it has been calculated that Goku (after absorbing SSG) became at least twice as powerful, meaning Base Goku would actually be at least 8x FTL.
I have already discussed this nonsense about Base Goku post SSG>BoG SSG Goku at length several times now. All that people can come up with is apparently lying about dialogue and context.

So, even if I low ball Goku down to assuming he never grew stronger after Namek, and SSG was only as strong as SS2, Goku should still end up at 8x FTL prior to his training under Whis.
8x FTL? Or NOT Massively FTL+?

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

There are no feats alone that place him that high in Super, no. It's all on the scaling chain until you reach Jiren/MUI, who absolutely 100% scale to Beerus' 300 quadrillion times FTL speed feat.

Also, you completely misread the part about Goku absorbing SSG. Whatever you think of whether or not Goku has access to god power in base, to deny that Base Goku didn't get stronger at all by fighting in SSG and absorbing it into SSJ is ridiculous in the extreme. SSJ is still accepted as a 40x multiplier in Super on this website, so his base would still scale to 40x less than that.

 

[Proper9]

Any proof that Dragon Ball universe is infinite? It seems Marvel and DC have a way bigger cosmology.

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

Any proof that Dragon Ball universe is infinite? It seems Marvel and DC have a way bigger cosmology.

Obviously, they do. Marvel and DC have many, many more than infinite variations of only 12 universes; DC has infinite variations on 52 universes, and Marvel is a true infinite multiverse with infinite variations of each universe.


What we do know is that the "globe" containing Universe 7 is at least 2x the size of the observable universe IRL, thanks to this calc by The 2nd Existential Seed/SSBMonado: https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/User_blog:The_2nd_Existential_Seed/Dragon_Ball_Universe_size

 

[PFM18]

There are no feats alone that place him that high in Super, no. It's all on the scaling chain until you reach Jiren/MUI, who absolutely 100% scale to Beerus' 300 quadrillion times FTL speed feat.
Also, you completely misread the part about Goku absorbing SSG. Whatever you think of whether or not Goku has access to god power in base, to deny that Base Goku didn't get stronger at all by fighting in SSG and absorbing it into SSJ is ridiculous in the extreme. SSJ is still accepted as a 40x multiplier in Super on this website, so his base would still scale to 40x less than that.

Yeah. Was it 300 quadrillion? I thought it was much more than that. Oh well.

I didn't dispute that. Obvioiusly Base Goku(post-ritual)>>>>>>>>>>SSJ3 Goku(pre-ritual) nobody is denying that. his Base form is more than 1/50th BoG SSG any time after the ritual of course. I was disputing the guy's claim that Base Goku post-SSG is more than twice as strong as BoG SSG, which is insane.

 

[Proper9]

All right just wondering because I had a guy say the cosmology was bigger than marvel. It was quite hilarious.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

8x FTL? Or NOT Massively FTL+?

If you claim he never grew any stronger in his base form, and SSG is only as strong as SS2 that's the figure it comes to.

If you want to discuss actual powerscaling, we could be here all day with the number of power increases and training that Goku underwent since Namek and arguing Super Saiyan 2, 3 and God multipliers is always a mess.

Point being, the absolute minimum speed for Base Goku is around 1/100th of MFTL+ by lowballing just about every statistic provided in the series.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

I have already discussed this nonsense about Base Goku post SSG>BoG SSG Goku at length several times now. All that people can come up with is apparently lying about dialogue and context.

I never stated Base Goku surpasses SSG though. I explicitly stated that Super Saiyan Goku scales to SSG Goku, and that Base Goku would be 1/50th of that.

 

[PFM18]

I never stated Base Goku surpasses SSG though. I explicitly stated that Super Saiyan Goku scales to SSG Goku, and that Base Goku would be 1/50th of that.

See now that, makes perfect sense. But that's not what you said

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

-snip-

See now that, makes perfect sense. But that's not what you said
"Post-SSG SS Goku is as strong as he was with SSG, so with my scaling (SSG = SS2), a hyper lowballed Base Goku would be at least 4x FTL.

However, it has been calculated that Goku (after absorbing SSG) became at least twice as powerful, meaning Base Goku would actually be at least 8x FTL."

He meant this part "Goku (after absorbing SSG)", was taking into account the first part of the post, that SSG was only absorbed into SSJ.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

Yeah, I even state that SS2 would be 200x FTL.

So Post-SSG SS Goku is 200x FTL at maximum lowball but it was calculated that Goku grew at least 2x stronger after he absorbed SSG, making Post-SSG SS Goku 400x FTL at max lowball and Post-SSG Base Goku 8x (400 / 50 = 8).

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

What's going on with this whole Post SSG only being hundreds of times FTL? He should still scale to the MFTL+ calc for Beerus.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

PFM18 is asking what would scale Goku to MFTL+ outside of that calculation.

 

[Steve_Rogers1]

Beerus uses more power against SSG Goku and is thus using more speed than when he was just flying to go get some food. Goku absorbs that power into his Super Saiyan and it then scales to SSG. His base would be 40x slower going by the wiki's accepted multiplier, which would still make him MFTL+. Aside from that, there is nothing else.

 

[AKM sama]

I have already discussed this nonsense about Base Goku post SSG>BoG SSG Goku at length several times now. All that people can come up with is apparently lying about dialogue and context.

Would you let it go, my dude? Sometimes I think I'm right and everybody else is just an idiot for disagreeing with me, even if they give reasons but my interpretation just won't accept those reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right and they're wrong. Even if very slight, there might be chances that maybe, just maybe, the fault is somewhere within my own interpretation and not anybody else's. Maybe I'm in the wrong and need to rethink from another angle and not keep bringing it up everytime and throw shade like a salty dude.

 

[ByAsura]

I'm also tired of that logic. Somebody disagreeing with you and maybe getting a point wrong/screwing up by accident doesn't mean they're lying. You could also be wrong because opinions aren't facts.

I should know, because I mess up all the time, yet most people on here don't call me a liar because they're rational people who know others can make mistakes.

PFM18, just stop treating everything you say like it's gospel, no offence.

 

[AKM sama]

Most people promoted you to discussion mod boi...you don't mess up all the time.

And did you see that beautiful looking explosion scene where Piccolo blew up the moon in DBK? Totally disproves that it was just vaporized...because the game is canon ovo

 

[ByAsura]

Thanks.

What ever happened to that thread, by the way? I just sort of took my hand off it and the whole thing was covered by the steam from that moon Piccolo totally vaporised.

By the way, I was thinking of making another thread about downgrading Roshi's calc based on the manga, and King Piccolo's City-bust.

 

[Dragomer]

What are you talking about ? are people trying to say Piccolo just 'core busted' the moon or whatever ?

 

[ByAsura]

No. It was a thread I made with a different calc to the one used on the profiles.

 

[PFM18]

-snip-

See now that, makes perfect sense. But that's not what you said

"Post-SSG SS Goku is as strong as he was with SSG, so with my scaling (SSG = SS2), a hyper lowballed Base Goku would be at least 4x FTL.
However, it has been calculated that Goku (after absorbing SSG) became at least twice as powerful, meaning Base Goku would actually be at least 8x FTL."

He meant this part "Goku (after absorbing SSG)", was taking into account the first part of the post, that SSG was only absorbed into SSJ.

Okay my bad. I think I misinterpreted it then.

 

[AKM sama]

No. It was a thread I made with a different calc to the one used on the profiles.

Which was based on vaporizing the moon since that damn Akira Toriyama never really drew the moon getting blown to bits like in every other media. I still think that the explosion he represented by the white light and loud sound effects in the manga would more accurately result in something getting blown to bits, but ByAsura thinks otherwise. So there's your context @Dragomer

 

[PFM18]

I'm also tired of that logic. Somebody disagreeing with you and maybe getting a point wrong/screwing up by accident doesn't mean they're lying. You could also be wrong because opinions aren't facts.
I should know, because I mess up all the time, yet most people on here don't call me a liar because they're rational people who know others can make mistakes.

PFM18, just stop treating everything you say like it's gospel, no offence.

I never called anybody a liar other than AKM Sama, who literally lied about the dialogue, given that this was a pretty lengthy exchange, I find it hard to believe he didn't ever think to double check the dialogue at any point, especially since he well into detail about what he claimed the dialogue to be. so he's a liar. And I'm only treating the factual as the dialogue, I'm not claiming my opinion to be any more, in and of itself than anybody else.

Would you let it go, my dude? Sometimes I think I'm right and everybody else is just an idiot for disagreeing with me, even if they give reasons but my interpretation just won't accept those reasons. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm right and they're wrong. Even if very slight, there might be chances that maybe, just maybe, the fault is somewhere within my own interpretation and not anybody else's. Maybe I'm in the wrong and need to rethink from another angle and not keep bringing it up everytime and throw shade like a salty dude.
Your "reasons" were based on dialogue that either does not exist or didn't happen in the order you claim it did. And what other angle? I've been very consistent, never changed my angle.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

Ah shit, here we go again

 

[ByAsura]

Way to ignore the other half of my entire point, or AKM's whole point about interpretation. I wasn't really referring to you, by the way, just people who do that in general.

You do seem to be treating your opinion as fact elsewhere. It's not just here.

 

[AKM sama]

@PFM At this point I don't even remember which specific dialogue or line you are talking about. Either you misunderstood what I said or I made an error while saying it but I sure as hell didn't "lie". And I'm not gonna turn this discussion thread into another to and fro so if you still wanna reply to this, do it on my wall.

 

[Dragomer]

I mean, Toriyama mostly represent stuff that got blown up as being vaporized anyway so it doesn't change much either way.

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

So how did Goku came back after being vaporised by U7 Spirit Bomb

 

[DragonEmperor23]

he pressed respawn

 

[Sigurd_Snake_in_The_Eye]

So how did Goku came back after being vaporised by U7 Spirit Bomb

He wasn't vaporized, although that scene is a mystery.

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

yeah like even Grand Priest considered him Dead

 

[A_Stoned_Orc]

I mean, Broly and Gogeta outright broke reality during their fight and went into some kind of interdimensional space, wouldn't surprise me if Goku's Spirit Bomb, when reflected back at him and interacting with his pure heart/soul, did something similar, and Goku Vice Shouted himself back or something.

 

[ArgosaxDespair]

@Orc that's actually pretty interesting

 

[DragonEmperor23]

It would be cool if the characters ended up breaking reality and ending somewhere else in another dimensional space again and found something there. Maybe a prisoner who was banished or an eldritch monster to show why breaking reality is a bad thing.

 

[CryoTheMayo]

So how did Goku came back after being vaporised by U7 Spirit Bomb

He dodged the omnidirectional blast at the centre of the explosion.

 

[Shubham_Sonsurkar]

But no one was able to sense Goku's ki even Grand Priest considered him Dead