Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 78

[AKM sama]

https://twitter.com/MJxTV/status/1134085303281573888
Yo guys he's got a point ya know ƒæÇ

But both pics are from DBZ

 

[Tipper17]

Modren dragon ball sure turned Vegito into a joke. I am just glad Gogeta is away from all of this

Nah there just inconsistent with his portrayal

 

[ZERO7772]

Wait, wait, you want lore? Like, actual and deep lore?

This is dragon ball, did you for some reason forget about which series you are talking about?

Point is, it doesn't have a proper build up nor an impact on the story what so ever. It's just more transformation for the sake of it "cuz toys"

Forms like SSJ, SSG, and UI at least did have an actual build up.

 

[ZERO7772]

Nah there just inconsistent with his portrayal

Which make him look pathetic. In both DBS and DBH anime he was an absolute joke.

 

[BlastX]

That's always been a thing with fusions, at least the saiyan ones (minus Gogeta).

They're all failures at life.

 

[ZERO7772]

Speaking of fusion, judging by what we saw in the ToP fom kefla, what form do you guys think Gogeta/Vegito would have needed to put her down if they fought?

 

[Peter1129]

Gogeta and Vegito from which arc? If it's Broly Saga than I'm pretty sure base form alone is enough. If it's Universe Survival Saga before the Limit Break boost than I'd say SSBKK would be needed to defeat LSS2 Kefla. If it's Future Trunks Saga than yeah good luck trying to beat her LSS1 form let alone LSS2.

 

[ZERO7772]

ToP arc. Before the whole "limit breaking" thing and SSBE.

 

[ProudLearner]

A fusion of Post- 2nd UIO Goku and Vegeta should do it. Unless Kefla manages to get Reactive Power Level by fighting 2nd UIO and gets more stronger. Who knows if she would be able to get LSS3 by asspulls...

 

[Peter1129]

Since irs Pre-Limit Break ToP than yeah SSBKK Gogeta/Vegito would probably be needed to defeat LSS2 Kefla.

SSB Gogeta/Vegito could probably keep up with LSS2 Kefla like SSBKK Goku did against LSS1 Kefla. But they would need SSBKK to overpower LSS2 Kefla.

Though if Kefla achieves a hypothetical LSS3 they might lose even with SSBKK. Which is possible if Gogeta/Vegito's power aren't enough to completely overwhelm her like 2nd UIS Goku did.

 

[ZERO7772]

May I ask the logical behind this?

 

[Tipper17]

That's always been a thing with fusions, at least the saiyan ones (minus Gogeta).

They're all failures at life.

Outside the FT arc vegito was a success in the buu saga So.,,,

 

[Tipper17]

TOP Ssj2 FT arc SSjb or SSJBKK Post TOP Ssj

 

[BlastX]

I mean, Vegerot didn't beat Buu and ended up defusing inside of him so I won't consider that a victory.

Especially given there where easier ways toto deal with him.

 

[Peter1129]

And on second thought never mind I don't think ToP Pre-Limit Break SSBKK Gogeta/Vegito is enough to defeat LSS2 Kefla. I completely forgot that the LSS1 boost was shown to be much bigger than even SSB.

So even though Base Gogeta/Vegito would be a couple times stronger than Base Kefla he still wouldn't win due to Kefla having transformations with a much larger power boost.

SSBKK Gogeta/Vegito is probably enough to defeat LSS1 Kefla but not enough to defeat LSS2 Kefla. At the very least Goku needs to be Post-1st UIS for Gogeta/Vegito to win against LSS2 Kefla.

 

[Tipper17]

I mean, Vegerot didn't beat Buu and ended up defusing inside of him so I won't consider that a victory.

Especially given there where easier ways toto deal with him.

He was dominating him and bait the latter into absorbing him which worked and led to buu being depowered His goal wasn't to kill and he wanted to save his kids

 

[Tipper17]

And on second thought never mind I don't think ToP Pre-Limit Break SSBKK Gogeta/Vegito is enough to defeat LSS2 Kefla. I completely forgot that the LSS1 boost was shown to be much bigger than even SSB.

So even though Base Gogeta/Vegito would be a couple times stronger than Base Kefla he still wouldn't win due to Kefla having transformations with a much larger power boost.

SSBKK Gogeta/Vegito is probably enough to defeat LSS1 Kefla but not enough to defeat LSS2 Kefla. At the very least Goku needs to be Post-1st UIS for Gogeta/Vegito to win against LSS2 Kefla.

Nah thats just wanking her massively They wouldn't need anything more than ssjb to stomp her Lssj 1 form LSSJ2 I can see arguments but nah

 

[Peter1129]

Base Kale is a weakling that gets overpowered by fodders in the ToP. But LSS1 Kale was able to stomp SSB Goku and was the first person to budge Jiren in his meditation. Prior to this not even the battle between Base Toppo and SSB Vegeta was able to do. And LSS1 Kale was able to budge him by simply powering up. So yeah LSS1 >>> SSB in terms of power boost.

So even though going by powerscaling Base Gogeta/Vegito would be a couple of times stronger than Base Kefla it wouldn't mean a thing due to the Kefla having much better transformations that gives a much bigger power boost.

 

[Tipper17]

Base Kale is a weakling that gets overpowered by fodders in the ToP. But LSS1 Kale was able to stomp SSB Goku and was the first person to budge Jiren in his meditation. Prior to this not even the battle between Base Toppo and SSB Vegeta was able to do. And LSS1 Kale was able to budge him by simply powering up. So yeah LSS1 >>> SSB in terms of power boost.

So even though going by powerscaling Base Gogeta/Vegito would be a couple of times stronger than Base Kefla it wouldn't mean a thing due to the Kefla having better transformations.

Ssjb goku was holding back on her hell belmond didn't gave any shit about her when Dyspo was fighting Hit nor goku was fazed all that much from her suppose rampage It sure as isn't considering a weaken ssjg was beating version that was much stronger than that version of her Making jiren budge mean nothing as I mentioned above

 

[Peter1129]

Okay this whole downplaying Kale thing is just getting ridiculous. Throughout the ToP multiple SSB tier and above characters have considered her to be a monster and yet even now there are still people who are saying she isn't even SSB lvl.

Kale was weakened and down after getting ko'd by Jiren of course Belmond wouldn't care about her.

Post-UIS SSG Goku =/= Pre-UIS SSG Goku. LSS1 Kale stomped Pre-UIS SSB Goku while LSS2 Kale got stomped by Post-UIS SSG Goku. That whole fight was supposed to showcase how big of a limit break boost Goku got from entering UIS. But instead people use it to downplay Kale which makes no sense at all.

Making Jiren budge is a feat for LSS1 Kale considering how the fight between a SSB lvl character (SSB Vegeta) and a suppressed SSBKK lvl character (Base Toppo) couldn't even budge him.

But yeah the boost the LSS forms give is honestly ridiculous as shown by Kale, Kefla and Broly.

 

[Tipper17]

Okay this whole downplaying Kale thing is just getting ridiculous. Throughout the ToP multiple SSB tier and above characters have considered her to be a monster and yet even now there are still people who are saying she isn't even SSB lvl.

Kale was weakened and down after getting ko'd by Jiren of course Belmond wouldn't care about her.

Post-UIS SSG Goku =/= Pre-UIS SSG Goku. LSS1 Kale stomped Pre-UIS SSB Goku while LSS2 Kale got stomped by Post-UIS SSG Goku. That whole fight was supposed to showcase how big of a limit break boost Goku got from entering UIS. But instead people use it to downplay Kale which makes no sense at all.

Making Jiren budge is a feat for LSS1 Kale considering how the fight between a SSB lvl character (SSB Vegeta) and a suppressed SSBKK lvl character (Base Toppo) couldn't even budge him.

No it's not downplaying it's facts She isn't blue tier as the show proved it Statements mean shit where the feats disprove it Why wouldn't belmond care about kale being weakened mean shit where she could be a massive threat down the line in the tourney yet Hit was treated as u6 best and strongest fighter by him and champa And nothing indicates a post UI ssjg goku was stronger then ssjb goku before his fight with jiren that's just head canon especially where during the fight it hammered down that goku was weakened and not at peak strength The fight was just goku forcing the girls to fuse into kefla The gains didn't start hitting until his rematch with jiren Maybe she was supposed to be blue tier but obviously things change behind the show so no she isn't blue tier but only ssjg tier albeit barely

 

[Tipper17]

Hell even one of the writers in the show implied goku wasn't going all out against her and you have goku not caring that much about when he first confronted jiren along with hit implying he didn't care that much about her

 

[Peter1129]

So basically you're trying to ignore both feats and statements that consistently show Kale is above SSB lvl. As well as ignoring the fact that Post-UIS Goku is much stronger than Pre-UIS Goku as shown in his fight with Kale and Kefla. Well good to know you use headcanon over actual feats and statements.

Also you do realize that the writers statements during the Universe Survival Saga have constantly contradicted what happens in the anime right? One of the writers statements claimed that Frieza was the second strongest of U7 but the anime showed that prior to the limit breaking boost Android 17 is second only to Goku. There was also that time the writer constantly changed who he thinks is stronger between Gohan, Frieza and 17. Which also turned out to be wrong based on what happens in the ToP.

And with that I take my leave. I don't want to get into another argument about Kale again.

 

[MonzyMonz]

No. Vegeta is the second strongest of U7, SSBE proves this.

 

[Tipper17]

So basically you're trying to ignore both feats and statements that consistently show Kale is above SSB lvl. As well as ignoring the fact that Post-UIS Goku is much stronger than Pre-UIS Goku as shown in his fight with Kale and Kefla. Well good to know you use headcanon over actual feats and statements.

Also you do realize that the writers statements during the Universe Survival Saga have constantly contradicted what happens in the anime right? One of the writers claimed that Frieza was the second strongest of U7 but the anime showed that prior to the limit breaking boost. Android 17 is the second strongest on Team U7. There was also that time the writer constantly changed who he thinks is stronger between Gohan, Frieza and 17.

Listen I understand your headcanon and all but the fact is she isn't ssjb tier srry but get over it. And no POST UI goku wasn't any stronger than his pre UI self outside of Omen which was noted to actually get stronger goku gains didn't hit until after kefla Funny how you ignored how the show keeps beating our heads how goku wasn't at peak shape and low on stamina during there fighti guess ur head canon doesn't allow that fact. I'm aware and that writer was asked immediately after the episode air And implied that fact which the show supported. She isn't blue tier her feat of stomping a Supressed ssjb goku ain't worth talking about as goku didn't give a shit about even when he saw jiren one shotting her

 

[Peter1129]

@MonzyMonz Prior to the limit breaking boosts.

 

[LightinAnt]

So basically you're trying to ignore both feats and statements that consistently show Kale is above SSB lvl. As well as ignoring the fact that Post-UIS Goku is much stronger than Pre-UIS Goku as shown in his fight with Kale and Kefla. Well good to know you use headcanon over actual feats and statements.

>SSBlue level

>Jobs with Caulifla against a tired SS2 and SSG Goku in a more powerful form

 

[Peter1129]

@Tipper17 Post-UIS Goku didn't get any stronger compared to Pre-UIS Goku... Dude.

Post-UIS SSBKK Goku literally went on to fight LSS1 Kefla who is stated by Whis to be on par with the Spirit Bomb. And here you are saying Goku getting stronger after using UIS is headcanon. You're the one that's using headcanon here.

@LightinAnt Jobs against a Goku who has been stated to have broken his limits and shown to be far stronger than when he fought Kale the first time.

 

[Tipper17]

@Tipper17 Post-UIS Goku didn't get any stronger compared to Pre-UIS Goku... Dude.

Post-UIS SSBKK Goku literally went on to fight LSS1 Kefla who is stated by Whis to be on par with the Spirit Bomb. And here you are saying Goku getting stronger after using UIS is headcanon. You're the one that's using headcanon here.

@LightinAnt Jobs against a Goku who has been stated to have broken his limits and shown to be far stronger than when he fought Kale the first time.

Yes ignore kefla knocking him out with a kick and implied she wasn't at max when she did it not Also ignoring how goku was weakened at that time So once again head canon not facts

 

[Peter1129]

He was stilll able to put up a fight and injure her. If he was that much weaker than LSS1 Kefla she wouldn't even feel his attacks. All of the other UIS boosts have shown to dramatically increase his powers so what makes you think he never got stronger after the first limit break even though its clearly shown that he got stronger? Seriously why is there always somebody who claims the limit break boosts are head canon even though its shown that clearly in the ToP. Whatever I'll just stop responding now.

 

[LightinAnt]

Again how does that make her "Blue level"? The UIO boost is unquantifiable. Goku was heavily supressed on his first fight with Kale and managed to deal with them both without going Blue, making it clear that they are in no way Blue level on their own. There is no evidence that Kale is comparable to SSBlue pre UIO on her own

 

[Tipper17]

>SSBlue level

>Jobs with Caulifla against a tired SS2 and SSG Goku in a more powerful form

Thank you

 

[Tipper17]

He was stilll able to put up a fight and injure her. If he was that much weaker than LSS1 Kefla she wouldn't even feel his attacks. All of the other UIS boosts have shown to dramatically increase his powers so what makes you think he never got stronger after the first limit break even though its clearly shown that he got stronger? Seriously why is there always somebody who claims the limit break boosts are head canon even though its shown that clearly in the ToP. Whatever I'll just stop responding now.

He didn't and that's it He was weakened and not at peak strength The gains didn't hit till his rematch with big j It's that simple

 

[MonzyMonz]

I can't believe that people are saying Kale rivals SSB Goku, that is straight up dumb. Mastered SSBerserker is better then normal SSBerserker because they are both similar in terms of power but the you can control Mastered Berserker. This information is important because a tired suppressed SS2 Goku managed to take on that. So no, Kale is not as strong as SSB Goku, debunked.

 

[ZERO7772]

I still don't buy this whole SSG tired Goku is >>> his pre UIS-SSB self tbh.

The narrative was hammering down that Goku is much weaker now not leagues beyond his original power, this is wank. Kale was still weaker than tired SSG even after she powered up to LSSJ2

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Then you all better actually make a CRT, because that's how we officially take it in the site, it's literally part of the ridiculous scaling chain we normally show for the characters during and after ToP.

When Goku is getting clearly stronger and stronger and way stronger and still needing to get stronger each time as Jiren keeps on surpassing by unraveling just a bit more of his power, you are lying at yourself very boldly saying the UIS boost wasn't massive. Especially since LSSJ2 Kale wasn't getting "jobbed" by Goku, she was actually holding on against a clearly massive skill and experience advantage, but was doing leagues better than Kaulifla.

 

[Tipper17]

Then you all better actually make a CRT, because that's how we officially take it in the site, it's literally part of the ridiculous scaling chain we normally show for the characters during and after ToP.

When Goku is getting clearly stronger and stronger and way stronger and still needing to get stronger each time as Jiren keeps on surpassing by unraveling just a bit more of his power, you are lying at yourself very boldly saying the UIS boost wasn't massive. Especially since LSSJ2 Kale wasn't getting "jobbed" by Goku, she was actually holding on against a clearly massive skill and experience advantage, but was doing leagues better than Kaulifla.

Kay still wasn't shit to him especially since he tanked her attack without issue and a casual blast from him had her nearly pop a vein from deflecting so yeah she was jobbing m8.

The boost didn't hit till his fight with jiren (which depends how much you take it)

 

[LSirLancelotDuLacl]

Now you are really pulling stuff out of your ass. He already fought Jiren so he already had a boost, unless you mean he didn't get an actual boost until his OTHER fight with Jiren.

In which case, you are just downplaying Kale because it damn well pleases you. Why did one fight power boost Goku but not another? Especially since the other fight where he uses UIS he's literally shown to be improving stupidly fast and after his first UIS he's shown as plain stronger? I guess Whis is a blind idiot and Vegeta a scared wuss. Oh yeah, gotta remember all of those other characters affected by her rampage, they were likely holding back too.

 

[ZERO7772]

Then you all better actually make a CRT, because that's how we officially take it in the site, it's literally part of the ridiculous scaling chain we normally show for the characters during and after ToP.

When Goku is getting clearly stronger and stronger and way stronger and still needing to get stronger each time as Jiren keeps on surpassing by unraveling just a bit more of his power, you are lying at yourself very boldly saying the UIS boost wasn't massive. Especially since LSSJ2 Kale wasn't getting "jobbed" by Goku, she was actually holding on against a clearly massive skill and experience advantage, but was doing leagues better than Kaulifla.

Not interested in making a CRT because it doesn't affect the tiering whatsoever, and just because few admins agreed on this scale chain doesn't mean it forbidden people state their opinion about it.

 

[Tipper17]

Now you are really pulling stuff out of your ass. He already fought Jiren so he already had a boost, unless you mean he didn't get an actual boost until his OTHER fight with Jiren.

In which case, you are just downplaying Kale because it damn well pleases you. Why did one fight power boost Goku but not another? Especially since the other fight where he uses UIS he's literally shown to be improving stupidly fast and after his first UIS he's shown as plain stronger? I guess Whis is a blind idiot and Vegeta a scared wuss. Oh yeah, gotta remember all of those other characters affected by her rampage, they were likely holding back too.

The story tells us goku was weakened and not at peak shape indicating He didn't get any huge gains yet I'm the one pulling shit out my ass? Hilarious And who was affected by her rampage exactly? Goku didn't give a shit nor was amazed at jiren one shotting someone who was supposedly stomping him in ssjb and and hit didn't care all that much outside of her potential killing someone and belmond didn't care for her nor looked at her as the main threat from u6 as he did with Hit hell champa as well unless we're pretending he can't sense shit. jiren looked at hit and goku as the two biggest threats to him in episode 111 implying kale wasn't much to him. Downplaying my ass