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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 69
- Thread starter ZERO7772
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Well first off, your 2x multiplier comes from saying Rildo is 50%, when even he says that he isn't 50%, he's an unknown.
Secondly, that would mean kaio ken x3 > SSJ which is completely absurd
Secondly, that would mean kaio ken x3 > SSJ which is completely absurd
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Thank you for that information @AKM
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Thank you for making a profile for the Toeiland King @SD
I have a few questions:
Resistance to Paralysis Inducement - I remember that Goku was able to escape it at super speed the instant it exploded. Which would mean he outran the explosion, not broke out of it before it exploded.
Ginyu saga key - "Varies from Small Star level to Star level with various transformations." Why stat level? Even if we apply the 100x kaioken, he is still far from reaching star level.
Freeza saga key - "Likely Solar System level. Solar System level with various transformations". If we are using the low end of Freeza's calc, there is a huge gap between the calculated value and baseline 4-B.
Other than that, it looks great.
I have a few questions:
Resistance to Paralysis Inducement - I remember that Goku was able to escape it at super speed the instant it exploded. Which would mean he outran the explosion, not broke out of it before it exploded.
Ginyu saga key - "Varies from Small Star level to Star level with various transformations." Why stat level? Even if we apply the 100x kaioken, he is still far from reaching star level.
Freeza saga key - "Likely Solar System level. Solar System level with various transformations". If we are using the low end of Freeza's calc, there is a huge gap between the calculated value and baseline 4-B.
Other than that, it looks great.
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1. Really? I thought it was that it hold him in place and he resisted the effects fast enough to get out before it explodes
2. Hmm true, given this is based on my old draft after the original user who said he was going to make toei goku didnt, its probably based on the original star values, so yeah its outdated, will change that.
3. Which calc are we talking about? Frieza has 2 tier 4 feats
2. Hmm true, given this is based on my old draft after the original user who said he was going to make toei goku didnt, its probably based on the original star values, so yeah its outdated, will change that.
3. Which calc are we talking about? Frieza has 2 tier 4 feats
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1. In the anime, Piccolo says these exact words: "At the moment of the explosion, he escaped from being bound up in there at super-speed." And then Gohan was like- "He did something that amazing in just an instant?"
3. Sorry, I thought they were the high end and low end results of the same calc. My bad.
3. Sorry, I thought they were the high end and low end results of the same calc. My bad.
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wow the page looks nice....we should merge it with gt goku since both are same
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I have some suggestions for the profile. First of all, how about this as a render for SS3? The rest are mostly nitpicks.
"Should be nearly as strong as King Vegeta, who destroyed several planetoids in one blast in Toei's portrayal of Dragon Ball" and "Should be comparable to a heavily restricted non-cano Frieza", I think we could get rid of the highlighted sections. We know it's Toei and non-canon, that's the point of the profile.
"Can reach up to a 100 times boost with kaio-ken with False Super Saiyan not far behind it, if not superior." Why should it be superior? Kaioken x100 easily killed a giant Lord Slug, whereas FSS had difficulty breaking a regular Lord Slug's arm.
"Should be far superior to first form Frieza, who casually destroyed Planet Vegeta without even powering up." This is Goku after a Zenkai, Yardrat, and Android training that made him stronger than people much more powerful than Frieza's first form, there's no "should" here.
"As of the Buu Saga, Son Goku could contend with Toei's Kid Buu, who also destroyed a galaxy in less time and with bigger parts of it being destroyed at once. Shook the entire universe in Fusion Rebor by merely charging up, putting him at similar levels as well." I think the galaxy thing could just be reduced to "who destroyed large portions of a galaxy", and the "Shook the entire universe in Fusion Reborn by merely charging up" can be on its own.
"Should be capable of taking on Turles and his henchmen with relative ease." Goku's already faster than the latter, and should be much faster (as he's improved vastly since then by his own admition and showings) than he was when he went toe to toe with base Turles.
"Outpaced even Toei King Kai, who was capable tracking Son Goku's spaceship without issue", this is a total nitpick, but Goku didn't outpace him, he couldn't see him.
"Should be nearly as strong as King Vegeta, who destroyed several planetoids in one blast in Toei's portrayal of Dragon Ball" and "Should be comparable to a heavily restricted non-cano Frieza", I think we could get rid of the highlighted sections. We know it's Toei and non-canon, that's the point of the profile.
"Can reach up to a 100 times boost with kaio-ken with False Super Saiyan not far behind it, if not superior." Why should it be superior? Kaioken x100 easily killed a giant Lord Slug, whereas FSS had difficulty breaking a regular Lord Slug's arm.
"Should be far superior to first form Frieza, who casually destroyed Planet Vegeta without even powering up." This is Goku after a Zenkai, Yardrat, and Android training that made him stronger than people much more powerful than Frieza's first form, there's no "should" here.
"As of the Buu Saga, Son Goku could contend with Toei's Kid Buu, who also destroyed a galaxy in less time and with bigger parts of it being destroyed at once. Shook the entire universe in Fusion Rebor by merely charging up, putting him at similar levels as well." I think the galaxy thing could just be reduced to "who destroyed large portions of a galaxy", and the "Shook the entire universe in Fusion Reborn by merely charging up" can be on its own.
"Should be capable of taking on Turles and his henchmen with relative ease." Goku's already faster than the latter, and should be much faster (as he's improved vastly since then by his own admition and showings) than he was when he went toe to toe with base Turles.
"Outpaced even Toei King Kai, who was capable tracking Son Goku's spaceship without issue", this is a total nitpick, but Goku didn't outpace him, he couldn't see him.
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New thread?keep them going,even after DBS is over 
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Good job Somebody, however the profile is still unfinished and causes problems with other existing profiles [i do have to make little edits to other anime only profiles], so about Goku:
1] Saiyan Saga
- BoZ/Dead Zone: 5-A. Relativistic. [Scaled to Piccolo Anime Beam ]
- Vegeta Saga: At least 5-A. At least Relativistic to FTL with Kaiokenx4. [Superior to his BoZ self]
- World Strongest to Tree of Might: High 5-A. Relativistic+ [WS] to FTL [ToM] in Base. Up to FTL+ with Kaiokenx4 during World strongest, higher for Tree of Might. [According to the guidebook he is comparable to the same 10.000 PL as Post Zenkai Bardock in World Strongest, which i placed to High 5-A from the high-end of King Vegeta calc, Kep told me that. Overwhelmed Dr. Wheelo with Kaiokenx4, while he is stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Turles in Base during Tree of Might, stomped Turles henchman's with Kaioken without effort].
2] Namek Saga
- Ginyu Saga/Lord Slug: At least High 5-A. At least FTL+, higher with Kaioken. Ranges from Low 4-C to High 4-C Massively FTL with various transformations [ Lord Slug is a Super Namekian, who was stated unless he missed his guess to be stronger than First Form Frieza and the False Super Saiya when Giant by King Kai. Goku gave only a beatdown to Slug when using the False Super Saiyan, but completely went through him after being recharged by Piccolo with Kaioken, then destroyed him with Spirit Bomb with the energy from the sun].
- Frieza Saga to Cooler Revenge: At least High 4-C. At least Massively FTL. Up to 4-B, Massively FTL+ with Kaioken, Spirit Bomb and Super Saiyan [Evolved Cooler Supernova was told me to be 4-B by Kep].
3] Android Saga
- 4-B, higher with Kaioken, Spirit Bomb and Super Saiyan. 4-A with Full Power Super Saiyan during the Cell Saga. [Took attacks from Meta Cooler to the Androids during the Android 13 Movie and fought him while SS. During the Cell Saga, Mastered Super Saiyan Goku is capable of taking on Restrained Super Saiyan Broly, who did 4-A damage].
4] Buu Saga to Fusion Reborn/Wrath of the Dragon
- 4-B to just 4-A in Base, higher with Kaioken, Spirit Bomb and Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 [Shaked the universe and is comparable to Kid Buu as a SS3], even higher with Dragon Fist [Defeated Hirudegar ].
5] To by Asura:
- Promestein replaced the anime links with the manga ones, i will eventually fix it.
- Already explained.
- Yes, after recovering from the Ginyu fight Goku is stronger than 1st to 3st Form Frieza and Post Zenkai Vegeta.
- Also yes.
- Yes, Tree of Might Goku is stronger and faster than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Turles.
- Yes, Goku didn't outpace Kai. The description about it should be the same as Cooler.
1] Saiyan Saga
- BoZ/Dead Zone: 5-A. Relativistic. [Scaled to Piccolo Anime Beam ]
- Vegeta Saga: At least 5-A. At least Relativistic to FTL with Kaiokenx4. [Superior to his BoZ self]
- World Strongest to Tree of Might: High 5-A. Relativistic+ [WS] to FTL [ToM] in Base. Up to FTL+ with Kaiokenx4 during World strongest, higher for Tree of Might. [According to the guidebook he is comparable to the same 10.000 PL as Post Zenkai Bardock in World Strongest, which i placed to High 5-A from the high-end of King Vegeta calc, Kep told me that. Overwhelmed Dr. Wheelo with Kaiokenx4, while he is stronger than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Turles in Base during Tree of Might, stomped Turles henchman's with Kaioken without effort].
2] Namek Saga
- Ginyu Saga/Lord Slug: At least High 5-A. At least FTL+, higher with Kaioken. Ranges from Low 4-C to High 4-C Massively FTL with various transformations [ Lord Slug is a Super Namekian, who was stated unless he missed his guess to be stronger than First Form Frieza and the False Super Saiya when Giant by King Kai. Goku gave only a beatdown to Slug when using the False Super Saiyan, but completely went through him after being recharged by Piccolo with Kaioken, then destroyed him with Spirit Bomb with the energy from the sun].
- Frieza Saga to Cooler Revenge: At least High 4-C. At least Massively FTL. Up to 4-B, Massively FTL+ with Kaioken, Spirit Bomb and Super Saiyan [Evolved Cooler Supernova was told me to be 4-B by Kep].
3] Android Saga
- 4-B, higher with Kaioken, Spirit Bomb and Super Saiyan. 4-A with Full Power Super Saiyan during the Cell Saga. [Took attacks from Meta Cooler to the Androids during the Android 13 Movie and fought him while SS. During the Cell Saga, Mastered Super Saiyan Goku is capable of taking on Restrained Super Saiyan Broly, who did 4-A damage].
4] Buu Saga to Fusion Reborn/Wrath of the Dragon
- 4-B to just 4-A in Base, higher with Kaioken, Spirit Bomb and Super Saiyan 1, 2 and 3 [Shaked the universe and is comparable to Kid Buu as a SS3], even higher with Dragon Fist [Defeated Hirudegar ].
5] To by Asura:
- Promestein replaced the anime links with the manga ones, i will eventually fix it.
- Already explained.
- Yes, after recovering from the Ginyu fight Goku is stronger than 1st to 3st Form Frieza and Post Zenkai Vegeta.
- Also yes.
- Yes, Tree of Might Goku is stronger and faster than Saiyan Saga Vegeta and Turles.
- Yes, Goku didn't outpace Kai. The description about it should be the same as Cooler.
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Looks good
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That 2x stuff was already debunked apparently @Peter
@Jobbo stop spreading misiniromation if it is already been debunked
@Everyone I'll respond and implement the changes once I get to my laptop in an hour, dont worry
@Jobbo stop spreading misiniromation if it is already been debunked
@Everyone I'll respond and implement the changes once I get to my laptop in an hour, dont worry
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It managed to deal more damage to Lord Slug than Kaio-ken x 100, however, Goku + .Piccolo's energy with an unknown kaio-ken multiplier is even greater than that apparently
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@Jobbo way back in the GT scaling thread
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It'd be even weirder if kaio-ken was better than super saiyan.
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Kaioken is better than SSJ. Kaioken x100 would have easily stomped Frieza which SSJ completely failed to do, so Toei SSJ is already inferior to Kaioken at its conception.
Well, setting aside the original Toei SSJ from the movie which is the only time it's been better than Kaioken.
Well, setting aside the original Toei SSJ from the movie which is the only time it's been better than Kaioken.
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...Except that even False SSJ was stronger than Kaio-ken times 100. And in the anime version exists this quote:
"Frieza: Oh my. You are so naive. You know nothing of the pleasures of this universe. Any desire that you have could be instantly fulfilled. But have it your way. Die if you must. But allow me to let you in on a little secret. Goku: Huh? What's that? Frieza: Well, I haven't even begun to use my real power yet. Goku: Yeah well I have some reserved myself. Frieza: Yes, I know. Five. Five times what you've displayed, ten at the very most. But I...I've only used one percent of my power. Goku: Huh? What? Uh...no way! You're bluffing. It's just not possible. Frieza: Don't be glum. You should actually be flattered. I've never had to summon this much of my power to defeat someone. Fifty percent of my maximum. That's all that's required for this."
So Kaio-ken times 100 would only be equal to Frieza and rapidly cause Goku to lose stamina. Frieza thinks that his 50% can easily handle Goku as well (Note that he doesn't even know about Kaio-ken's massive stamina loss, so its technically significantly lower)
"Frieza: Oh my. You are so naive. You know nothing of the pleasures of this universe. Any desire that you have could be instantly fulfilled. But have it your way. Die if you must. But allow me to let you in on a little secret. Goku: Huh? What's that? Frieza: Well, I haven't even begun to use my real power yet. Goku: Yeah well I have some reserved myself. Frieza: Yes, I know. Five. Five times what you've displayed, ten at the very most. But I...I've only used one percent of my power. Goku: Huh? What? Uh...no way! You're bluffing. It's just not possible. Frieza: Don't be glum. You should actually be flattered. I've never had to summon this much of my power to defeat someone. Fifty percent of my maximum. That's all that's required for this."
So Kaio-ken times 100 would only be equal to Frieza and rapidly cause Goku to lose stamina. Frieza thinks that his 50% can easily handle Goku as well (Note that he doesn't even know about Kaio-ken's massive stamina loss, so its technically significantly lower)
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Comparing a full powered Super Kamehameha vs a last second ki blast? Not to mention the explosion was created by both the ki blast and kamehameha.
How is that similar? It is literally a random ki blast from Broly completely breaking Gohan's forcefield. It is the exact opposite scenerio.
If it was reversed (Frieza firing off a full powered death ball to counter Goku's last second ki blast and failing), then you would have a point.
It should also be mention that in some scenes Frieza already had a variety of scratches.
How is that similar? It is literally a random ki blast from Broly completely breaking Gohan's forcefield. It is the exact opposite scenerio.
If it was reversed (Frieza firing off a full powered death ball to counter Goku's last second ki blast and failing), then you would have a point.
It should also be mention that in some scenes Frieza already had a variety of scratches.
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It is? Where did you get that?
His hand had directly touched the blast before going 50%, that should be expected.
His hand had directly touched the blast before going 50%, that should be expected.
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He was already at 50% when x20 Goku was smacking him around. He also says it was a close one after it explodes.
The quotes from the wiki are from the dub. That 1% line is a well known dub flub, you can check episode 90 where it's from, there's nothing in like that in the Japanese. Frieza just tells Goku he's going to use 50%.
The quotes from the wiki are from the dub. That 1% line is a well known dub flub, you can check episode 90 where it's from, there's nothing in like that in the Japanese. Frieza just tells Goku he's going to use 50%.
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I'm pretty sure Frieza didn't state that he was at 50% before then.
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See that's conflicting. Just so we're clear, you do know that the kaio-ken attack was immediately proceeded by the kamehameha right? So unless base Goku and Kaio ken x20 Goku are comparable to 50% Frieza, something you just said had to be wrong.
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...Because that would mean that pre-kaio ken x 20 Goku was fighting against 50% Frieza and stood his ground, arguably better?
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Should Toei Goku and Cooler have dimensional travel? It was shown in Return Of Cooler that they enter a pocket dimension and they need a ki signature for areas they've never been to.
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By your own scaling, Kaio Ken x 20 = 50% Frieza, so how would he have an 'upper hand'? @Jobbo, in addition, Kaio-ken x 10, again by your scaling, wouldn't be able to contend with Frieza.
Also pretty sure King Kai didnt say that.
And again, we already got concrete evidence with FSSJ.
Also pretty sure King Kai didnt say that.
And again, we already got concrete evidence with FSSJ.
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Please quote where I said Kaioken x20 Goku = 50% Frieza or that Kaioken x10 Goku can contend with him. I never did.
King Kai did say that: https://snag.gy/ZQrjTW.jpg
And that evidence is debunked in the Frieza Saga when Kaioken x20 Goku puts 50% Frieza on the defensive it's clear that Slug SSJ > Regular SSJ.
King Kai did say that: https://snag.gy/ZQrjTW.jpg
And that evidence is debunked in the Frieza Saga when Kaioken x20 Goku puts 50% Frieza on the defensive it's clear that Slug SSJ > Regular SSJ.
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