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This is way worse than Android 17's 3-A.ZERO7772 said:
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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 67
- Thread starter ZERO7772
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- dragon ball
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you thought he was even a little serious?Ryukama said:
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I will say that I do like Manga Jiren more than Anime Jiren
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PIS.... Dx
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Skill will never allow you to be able to dodge anything millions of times faster than you can see— and even if it did, it does you no good in a fight with someone trying to hit you unless you scale to them in movement speed. Jiren was visibly shocked that Roshi dodged him, and tried to hit him on multiple occasions after that. Even if Jiren is using a Quadrillionth of his power— if he has enough control to not reduce Roshi to a pile of subatomic dust by saying hello, he has enough control to double that quadrillionth of a fraction of his casual power to hit Roshi upon missing a second time, allowing him to hit a Roshi that should be frozen in time from his perspective. This scene makes no sense unless Roshi is that strong, or characters that can hold back in this series can debuff not only their durability, strength, AP, and speed, but their reactions as well. Which, is the best explanation, and probably the most likely conclusion to explain why Jiren didn't simply flex his muscles upon seeing this old man moving at the speed of a snail dodge him— seeing someone move that slow would probably make me commit saiyuri five times over— if I couldn't just blow at them to knock them down that is!
So bad.
But it's ******* incredible all the same.
So bad.
But it's ******* incredible all the same.
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His UI run out
and he was defeated.
and he was defeated.
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- Thread starter
- #213
They doesn't assume jiren is million of times faster than Roshi thought. Most people here forgot that we are only applying out system to the series not the opposite. Toei\Toyo and even toriyama doesn't think this way when they write.
It's only bother you when you are obsessed with power levels like everyone here. Roshi's fight was just to give Goku hint of UI, nothing more, nothing less.
It's only bother you when you are obsessed with power levels like everyone here. Roshi's fight was just to give Goku hint of UI, nothing more, nothing less.
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You think this makes sense?
It doesn't.
At all, unless "holding back"— which seems to mean debuffing yourself with your Chi, given how characters can make themselves take actual damage by weakening themselves. Either that, or all Dragon Ball characters are entirely buffed with Chi to get their strength, and they'd be Building Level without it.
Inb4 "Muh, where statements of dis"— it's common sense. The only way one can "hold back enough" to this degree and manage to take damage from weaker people is by manipulating your stats and making yourself all around weaker backwards— or that your strength isn't your natural strength, but your enhanced strength.
Point is, none of this is Roshi. All of this would have to be because Jiren is slacking.
It doesn't.
At all, unless "holding back"— which seems to mean debuffing yourself with your Chi, given how characters can make themselves take actual damage by weakening themselves. Either that, or all Dragon Ball characters are entirely buffed with Chi to get their strength, and they'd be Building Level without it.
Inb4 "Muh, where statements of dis"— it's common sense. The only way one can "hold back enough" to this degree and manage to take damage from weaker people is by manipulating your stats and making yourself all around weaker backwards— or that your strength isn't your natural strength, but your enhanced strength.
Point is, none of this is Roshi. All of this would have to be because Jiren is slacking.
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@Zero
The series is supposed to be internally consistent. Saying "Toyotaro didn't think about the scaling" is exactly the criticism we're making. You're supposed to. Even on a surface level, this makes no sense— but your writing is supposed to be consistent with the rules it establishes— along with those rules making some amount of sense.
You can't expect the audience to suspend their disbelief when you tell them that you can react to someone who the story acknowledges (indirectly or not, every writer should ideally understand every feat in their story— since any feat or action can be relevant again, and cause plot holes) to be Millions of Times faster than you, in a verse where physics is relatively similar to ours (in the sense that speed exists and punches hurt), with pure skill and nothing else is ridiculous by its own logic.
Saying "The writers aren't thinking about that" is an excuse. Not only that, but it's as if you're trying to argue that the criticism being leveled to the writer isn't a valid one— using the criticism itself as an excuse (for itself).
The series is supposed to be internally consistent. Saying "Toyotaro didn't think about the scaling" is exactly the criticism we're making. You're supposed to. Even on a surface level, this makes no sense— but your writing is supposed to be consistent with the rules it establishes— along with those rules making some amount of sense.
You can't expect the audience to suspend their disbelief when you tell them that you can react to someone who the story acknowledges (indirectly or not, every writer should ideally understand every feat in their story— since any feat or action can be relevant again, and cause plot holes) to be Millions of Times faster than you, in a verse where physics is relatively similar to ours (in the sense that speed exists and punches hurt), with pure skill and nothing else is ridiculous by its own logic.
Saying "The writers aren't thinking about that" is an excuse. Not only that, but it's as if you're trying to argue that the criticism being leveled to the writer isn't a valid one— using the criticism itself as an excuse (for itself).
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@Zero
Powerscaling is important in any narrative that's focused on fighting. This is not negotiable. If you told me, irl, that some civilian took an entire army and I kidnap that civilian and run tests on him— (basically research the verse) and find out that this guy has no actual way of doing what he just did, you're likely a liar.
Roshi being able to do this is a plot hole. Which is evidence of bad writing, pal.
Powerscaling is important in any narrative that's focused on fighting. This is not negotiable. If you told me, irl, that some civilian took an entire army and I kidnap that civilian and run tests on him— (basically research the verse) and find out that this guy has no actual way of doing what he just did, you're likely a liar.
Roshi being able to do this is a plot hole. Which is evidence of bad writing, pal.
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DB's an Anime where the fights are just for mindless fun. And that's why I love it.
Want fights making sense and shit? Watch Naruto.
Want fights making sense and shit? Watch Naruto.
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Dragon Ball Super is a meh series imo but I disagree.AKM sama said:
The manga has more gore, better fight scenes/choreography, better concepts and less in-canon filler. The powerscaling problem only started recently in this arc.
While the manga isn't perfect by any stretch of the imagination, it still more than power scaling going for it.
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Don't get Amexim started on another wall of text. ovo
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Yeah I don't just want anyone able to beat anyone with no rhyme or reason. Especially not when someone explicitly cannot beat someone whatsoever but then just inexplicably does.Amexim said:
I totally agree. There's just a section of people (not accusing anyone here of it) who adamantly refuse to hold Dragon Ball to any sort of standards and think it's ridiculous if people do. No matter what happens you're just supposed to eat it up cause all the series is about is "cool fights".Amexim said:
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"But Dragon Ball is fiction, therefore it doesn't need to make sense"
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And I can accept this as a meme. I just want there to be a real explanation for it happening, and not be something like— pure technique can warp reality and make your Stat gap mean nothing. I mean, that can be a thing in fiction, as an actual hax or hax verse mechanic, but if you're gonna introduce that into Dragon Ball, at least either elaborate on it to be explicitly that— or let this new skill reality warping hax BS be demonstrated by the Grand Padre or something— you can't just introduce a new powerful skill by using low tiers without sufficient explanation OR hype!
Ugh. Even then, I would prefer "skill" to stay as "skill" in all honesty.
Ugh. Even then, I would prefer "skill" to stay as "skill" in all honesty.
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Super unpopular opinion time. I'd like a tournament where all the fighters have their strength, speed and durability equalized.
1. It makes technique, martial arts skill and strategy truly relevant.
2. It gives everyone a chance to have a big moment and do things of just as much impact as the saiyans.
3. There'd be pretty much no powerscaling issues since there's a reason for everyone to be able to fight on par with each other.
Also Grand Priest being revealed to have a power suppression technique that forces everyone to be on the same level as each other would be a real impressive showing of his power and a good hax.
1. It makes technique, martial arts skill and strategy truly relevant.
2. It gives everyone a chance to have a big moment and do things of just as much impact as the saiyans.
3. There'd be pretty much no powerscaling issues since there's a reason for everyone to be able to fight on par with each other.
Also Grand Priest being revealed to have a power suppression technique that forces everyone to be on the same level as each other would be a real impressive showing of his power and a good hax.
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the translations ain't even out yet. Bash it when it comes out. Who knows, it might explain stuff.Amexim said:
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Master Roshi stomps everyone and calls it a day.Ryukama said:
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We already know the explaination. And if it wasn't Whis training Roshi for quadrillion's of years, then it isn't a good enough explanation. "Just wait till it comes out," is another attempt to silence criticism at something that is clearly a bad idea in every way— with that plea only being viable if the writer pulls out a miracle and explains it good. Most people who start with stuff like this— critiquing stuff of this caliber— know that its a shitshow because they know there's no good reason from the writer's past behavior.
Also, I would prefer the Humans to get a buff that makes sense instead— and for them to explain why there are so many people who are Universal and shit— basically give good reasons for people to be viable now instead.
If they say, Roshi wished for agelessness on the Dragon Balls or that Whis gave it to him, and then said he trained with Roshi for millions of years or something, it would at least be a decent explanation, even if the event itself is contrived.
Also, I would prefer the Humans to get a buff that makes sense instead— and for them to explain why there are so many people who are Universal and shit— basically give good reasons for people to be viable now instead.
If they say, Roshi wished for agelessness on the Dragon Balls or that Whis gave it to him, and then said he trained with Roshi for millions of years or something, it would at least be a decent explanation, even if the event itself is contrived.
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so what's the translated explanation?
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But...Roshi's already ageless.
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I personally prefer the skill stuff to brute strength.Amexim said:
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^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ZERO7772 said:
amexim seems to think that a translated explanation came out.
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The spoilers explained that he trained in secret or something, didn't they?
Even still, your "wait patiently" isn't enough, since we don't have much of a reason to think that there will be a good explaination in the first place, given Gohan suddenly being strong enough to Fight Kefla by himself— who is also already superior to Goku— making Gohan who did off screen training for less time than Goku and Vegeta did stronger than both of them (already a bad explanation), and that fight being only a chapter. This shows that Toyotaro has been rather bad at writing this stuff as of late.
So why should I wait for the translated explanation when the spoiler explanation is already out, and one explanation for a character's strength has already been shown to be lack luster.
This is what I mean when I say that people can critique stuff early when they know the writer isn't likely to redeem the mistake. It's like saying critiquing the new LIVE ACTION Sonic movie that is coming out that PRIMARILY stars and is focused on human characters with no other Sonic characters or CG characters is too early to do. We can guess based off of how terrible the premise is.
If the movie was said by the producers themselves to just be a gif of Sonic's Smash Taunt, for 2 hours, would you still say "wait until it comes out"?
I understand that we may be jumping to conclusions, but we're not given any reason to believe that these assumptions are bad. No hope at all.
Even still, your "wait patiently" isn't enough, since we don't have much of a reason to think that there will be a good explaination in the first place, given Gohan suddenly being strong enough to Fight Kefla by himself— who is also already superior to Goku— making Gohan who did off screen training for less time than Goku and Vegeta did stronger than both of them (already a bad explanation), and that fight being only a chapter. This shows that Toyotaro has been rather bad at writing this stuff as of late.
So why should I wait for the translated explanation when the spoiler explanation is already out, and one explanation for a character's strength has already been shown to be lack luster.
This is what I mean when I say that people can critique stuff early when they know the writer isn't likely to redeem the mistake. It's like saying critiquing the new LIVE ACTION Sonic movie that is coming out that PRIMARILY stars and is focused on human characters with no other Sonic characters or CG characters is too early to do. We can guess based off of how terrible the premise is.
If the movie was said by the producers themselves to just be a gif of Sonic's Smash Taunt, for 2 hours, would you still say "wait until it comes out"?
I understand that we may be jumping to conclusions, but we're not given any reason to believe that these assumptions are bad. No hope at all.
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Skill alone won't win you a fight against someone who is far faster than you can even see. You have to be able to live long enough to survive an exchange to even begin to use your skill. Otherwise, it's pointless. You can have all the martial arts knowledge in the world, but a Gorila will still stomp you.
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Doesn't matter. You can still block a Gorilla's knock downs or 2, before getting raped in the end. Roshi dodged, and blocked Jiren's punches, before he got eliminated soon afterwards VIA a behind the back chop.
Also, you're getting VERY overwhelmed by DB here. DB's always been mindless fun. Sure, there have been dark moments, and shit, but that's less about the story/logical sense, and more about the excitement. DB's not a story driven adventure, more than it is an adventure type of adventure, with fun battles and amazing people you meet along the way.
Also, you're getting VERY overwhelmed by DB here. DB's always been mindless fun. Sure, there have been dark moments, and shit, but that's less about the story/logical sense, and more about the excitement. DB's not a story driven adventure, more than it is an adventure type of adventure, with fun battles and amazing people you meet along the way.
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A. The gap between you or I and a gorila— you or I and an ELEPHANT is thousands of times smaller than the gap between a suppressed Jiren and Roshi. Try blocking a car driving full speed at you with no superhuman strength OR reflexes.
B. You can't try to call my critiquing of the story flawed if you're willing to make excuses for bad writing of any kind. Fights, even if they are fun, should make sense in and of themselves. Even comedy cartoons have to follow basic writing rules.
C. If you're the type to make arguments about "overthinking cartoons", why are you on this wiki?
B. You can't try to call my critiquing of the story flawed if you're willing to make excuses for bad writing of any kind. Fights, even if they are fun, should make sense in and of themselves. Even comedy cartoons have to follow basic writing rules.
C. If you're the type to make arguments about "overthinking cartoons", why are you on this wiki?
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You guys didn't even read the chapter. Roshi didn't block any of Jiren's attacks nor her landed any strike on him. Roshi nearly died when Jiren's attack nearly graze him. He later chopped his neck and Roshi was out lol.
That fight happened to give Goku hint of UI instead of falling into a blackhole. that's all
That fight happened to give Goku hint of UI instead of falling into a blackhole. that's all
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