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Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

Fezzih_007 said:
I don't get It, Goku defeats Mira who is 3-B, and he only peaks at 3-C?
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Wait I thought u can transform into any form and still beat Mira. That’s what I did, I wanted to test myself and I stayed in Base and just SSJ to see if I could beat Mira (I won easily)
 
BlackeJan said:
Wait I thought u can transform into any form and still beat Mira. That’s what I did, I wanted to test myself and I stayed in Base and just SSJ to see if I could beat Mira (I won easily)
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You can win easily in any state tbh, Kakarot is a very easy game
 
Personally I think upscaling power levels linearly but restricting backscaling ( due to even 1.2x differences in them becoming a one shot vaporizing gap in universe) would rid us of so many problems with BoZ to Freeza Saga scaling.
 
AguilaR202 said:
Personally I think upscaling power levels linearly but restricting backscaling ( due to even 1.2x differences in them becoming a one shot vaporizing gap in universe) would rid us of so many problems with BoZ to Freeza Saga scaling.
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......if we do upscaling linearly, so by rule we must do backscaling linearly as well, if a linear system is inconsistent for 1 then it also is for the other, since we would be backscaling either way
 
omegabronic said:
......if we do upscaling linearly, so by rule we must do backscaling linearly as well, if a linear system is inconsistent for 1 then it also is for the other, since we would be backscaling either way
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No?
Power level increases result in exponential growth in power going by actual feats so even if we did away with scaling characters linearly you’re still left with the issue of a PL of 5 being 10-A at most, and a PL of 180 being 5-C coupled with Freezas destruction of planet vegeta at a PL of 530,000 which is calced at millions of times above 5-C despite the gap in PL between him and the weakest moon buster being less than 3000x

And let’s not pretend the accepted 50x of SS1, Kaioken and Freezas percentages of power don’t have a 1:1 correspondence with known power levels.

The suggestion is simple, scale characters linearly off the weakest feat they have as a baseline, after they reach, say, 5-C you scale them by how many times their PL is above that up until they reach 5-B ( vegetas planet buster ) and so on.

Backscaling doesn’t work because the feats vastly surpass the gaps between power levels, and whenever it is stated a character got 10x or so stronger they are clearly referring to BP not just their stats. linear scaling is a lowball if anything.
 
AguilaR202 said:
No?
Power level increases result in exponential growth in power going by actual feats so even if we did away with scaling characters linearly you’re still left with the issue of a PL of 5 being 10-A at most, and a PL of 180 being 5-C coupled with Freezas destruction of planet vegeta at a PL of 530,000 which is calced at millions of times above 5-C despite the gap in PL between him and the weakest moon buster being less than 3000x

And let’s not pretend the accepted 50x of SS1, Kaioken and Freezas percentages of power don’t have a 1:1 correspondence with known power levels.

The suggestion is simple, scale characters linearly off the weakest feat they have as a baseline, after they reach, say, 5-C you scale them by how many times their PL is above that up until they reach 5-B ( vegetas planet buster ) and so on.

Backscaling doesn’t work because the feats vastly surpass the gaps between power levels, and whenever it is stated a character got 10x or so stronger they are clearly referring to BP not just their stats. linear scaling is a lowball if anything.
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This is a very arbitraly rule, give any reason for us to stop at the weakest? Does the series have any statement of such rule for us to do that way? Or is it just you trying to use a method that will give only benefits without any downside? Because ngl, the method you said is not really based on anything in the series, the cap for the downscaling/upscaling i mean
 
AguilaR202 said:
No?
Power level increases result in exponential growth in power going by actual feats so even if we did away with scaling characters linearly you’re still left with the issue of a PL of 5 being 10-A at most, and a PL of 180 being 5-C coupled with Freezas destruction of planet vegeta at a PL of 530,000 which is calced at millions of times above 5-C despite the gap in PL between him and the weakest moon buster being less than 3000x

And let’s not pretend the accepted 50x of SS1, Kaioken and Freezas percentages of power don’t have a 1:1 correspondence with known power levels.

The suggestion is simple, scale characters linearly off the weakest feat they have as a baseline, after they reach, say, 5-C you scale them by how many times their PL is above that up until they reach 5-B ( vegetas planet buster ) and so on.

Backscaling doesn’t work because the feats vastly surpass the gaps between power levels, and whenever it is stated a character got 10x or so stronger they are clearly referring to BP not just their stats. linear scaling is a lowball if anything.
Click to expand...
This is arbitrary
 
omegabronic said:
This is a very arbitraly rule, give any reason for us to stop at the weakest? Does the series have any statement of such rule for us to do that way? Or is it just you trying to use a method that will give only benefits without any downside? Because ngl, the method you said is not really based on anything in the series, the cap for the downscaling/upscaling i mean.
Click to expand...

The story very clearly portrays a narrative where a PL of 5 is human level and 180 is moonbuster level, how is this not enough to raise eyebrows at any attempts to backscale in general?

What do you mean only benefits? Restricting backscaling stops things such as BoZ Goku downscaling off Freezas feat which is millions of times stronger than anything he is ever even hyped to be able to perform, and the only reasoning people have for them is him getting 20x, 10x and 10x times stronger based off guide statements which big surprise also happen to be the actual gaps in powerlevels

BoZ Goku ~ 400
Saiyan Saga Goku ~ over 8,000
Ginyu Saga Goku ~ 80,000
Hypothetical Kaioken x10 GS Goku ~ 800,000

So yeah we currently scale and backscale characters in almost 1:1 correspondence with power levels, I’m only suggesting we drop the pretense that we aren’t.
 
AguilaR202 said:
The story very clearly portrays a narrative where a PL of 5 is human level and 180 is moonbuster level, how is this not enough to raise eyebrows at any attempts to backscale in general?
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The story doesn't portray any narrative at all regarding PL because none of these feats where thought with PL in mind. PL take a consistent linear path after they are introduced, and the only glaring contradictions are from before they were even conceptualized.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
The story doesn't portray any narrative at all regarding PL because none of these feats were thought with PL in mind. PL take a consistent linear path after they are introduced, and the only glaring contradictions are from before they were even conceptualized.
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Raditz’ scouter has a normal human at a powerlevel of 5, piccolo with at most 500 can moon bust casually, from its introduction they are clearly shown to not be linear
 
AguilaR202 said:
The story very clearly portrays a narrative where a PL of 5 is human level and 180 is moonbuster level, how is this not enough to raise eyebrows at any attempts to backscale in general?
Click to expand...
........why are you acting as if i was defending backscale in the first place?

AguilaR202 said:
What do you mean only benefits? Restricting backscaling stops things such as BoZ Goku downscaling off Freezas feat which is millions of times stronger than anything he is ever even hyped to be able to perform, and the only reasoning people have for them is him getting 20x, 10x and 10x times stronger based off guide statements which big surprise also happen to be the actual gaps in powerlevels

BoZ Goku ~ 400
Saiyan Saga Goku ~ over 8,000
Ginyu Saga Goku ~ 80,000
Hypothetical Kaioken x10 GS Goku ~ 800,000

So yeah we currently scale and backscale characters in almost 1:1 correspondence with power levels, I’m only suggesting we drop the pretense that we aren’t.
Click to expand...
.....you either follow a linear model or you don't, you can't go half way to multiply greater power based on the system unless said system is full out linear

AguilaR202 said:
Raditz’ scouter has a normal human at a powerlevel of 5, piccolo with at most 500 can moon bust casually, from its introduction they are clearly shown to not be linear
Click to expand...
you admit that they aren't a linear system.....but then you want to use a linear system for them?
 
omegabronic said:
........why are you acting as if i was defending backscale in the first place?


.....you either follow a linear model or you don't, you can't go half way to multiply greater power based on the system unless said system is full out linear


you admit that they aren't a linear system.....but then you want to use a linear system for them?
Click to expand...
PLs aren’t linear but they have an upwards trend that suggests they are exponential by both feats and showings, which is why linear upward scaling is suggested as lowball.
 
AguilaR202 said:
Raditz’ scouter has a normal human at a powerlevel of 5, piccolo with at most 500 can moon bust casually, from its introduction they are clearly shown to not be linear
Click to expand...
Great, you have one Z example of PL not being linear, I have loads of evidence of them showing linearity. Do you want to enter this discussion for real?
 
lowkey what if we were allowed to do equal stats for characters within the same tier

like if someone were 2-C and scaled to 1 universe higher and made it a stomp


doing like a 5-C and a 2-C shouldn't be allowed though cause that just feels spiteful
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Great, you have one Z example of PL not being linear, I have loads of evidence of them showing linearity. Do you want to enter this discussion for real?
Click to expand...

Just post the showings because they are useful, backscaling aside I think it’s far more jarring that certain people think they should be ignored for extrapolation but are fine with power increase statements that correspond with PLs 1:1 and only apply them to downscale.

2nd form Freeza at over 1,000,000 powerlevel is rated in scaling to be 2x stronger than 1st form whose PL is…

530,000

But for some reason Gokus base being 3,000,000 doesn’t count and he is only 50x stronger than second form Freeza?

At this point might as well use the actual numbers already in place and not pretend the statements didn’t also validate PLs as a measuring stick.

Guide : Post Kaio training Goku got 20x stronger than before !

What are their respective powerlevels?

400 and > 8,000 a whopping 20x difference
Click to expand...

Conclusion : PLs can’t be used for scaling because they’re inconsistent / the guide meant in terms of strength not powerlevels it’s just a massive coincidence so we can’t use them.

I’m open to argue exclusively for just extrapolation off PLs if certain mods didn’t show their discontent at the prospect of chain backscaling in other threads which wether one likes it or not, can influence if something is applied in the end.
 
I heard Grade 4 and Grade 1 Super Saiyan are stated to be equal in the El Manga Legendario, is this true? I'll check myself too
 
Ednaxel2 said:
I heard Grade 4 and Grade 1 Super Saiyan are stated to be equal in the El Manga Legendario, is this true? I'll check myself too
Click to expand...
I don't remember that.

What I do remember is that Grade 4 was stated to have the same raw strength as Grade 3 without the other drawbacks, which in turn is stated to be 10x stronger than SSJ Grade 1 iirc. But I don't think the wiki uses this, for understandable reasons.

Grade 4 is the same concept as Perfected Super Saiyan Blue. Basically maximum Ki efficiency which makes the form much stronger.
 
RinneItachi said:
I don't remember that.

What I do remember is that Grade 4 was stated to have the same raw strength as Grade 3 without the other drawbacks, which in turn is stated to be 10x stronger than SSJ Grade 1 iirc. But I don't think the wiki uses this, for understandable reasons.

Grade 4 is the same concept as Perfected Super Saiyan Blue. Basically maximum Ki efficiency which makes the form much stronger.
Click to expand...
Nope. Grade 4 was never stated to be stronger than Grade 1 expect for just one risky source iirc
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Nope. Grade 4 was never stated to be stronger than Grade 1 expect for just one risky source iirc
Click to expand...
16123043969_33db2648ad_k.jpg

There's this statement in Daizenshuu 2 that says that Goku "Drew out the power of Super Saiyan to its limit". Make of that what you will.
 
pineappleman said:
Trunks does say 'he increased his power without losing his speed!' which does imply it having at least a similar level of power increase to the muscle bulking forms as compared to Grade 1
Click to expand...
No he doesn't.
RinneItachi said:
Was it ever stated to be as strong as Grade 1?
Click to expand...
Grade 4 is constantly referred to "Natural state of the Super Saiyan without any stamina loss"
 
Roun12 said:
16123043969_33db2648ad_k.jpg

There's this statement in Daizenshuu 2 that says that Goku "Drew out the power of Super Saiyan to its limit". Make of that what you will.
Click to expand...
Yeah, the power of the regular Super Saiyan form doesn't drop because of stamina anymore, the very panel used in below this is Goku saying "regular Super Saiyan is best for now"
 
Ah i don't want to jump in but grade 4 is stronger than grade 1 vegeta got molly woped by 18 in his grade 1 but later he beat the shit out in super his super vegeta or grade 2 form same goes for grade 4 when goku was atleast contending with cell when vegeta got his ass kicked in grade 2 I dont think it has to do anything with stamina
 
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If grade 4 remains simply about stamina issues, it would be better to just use grade 2 and end the fight immediately tbh, since anyone who can be matched with grade 4 would technically be a grade 1 level opponent with better stamina , which wouldn't mean anything if he just gets oneshotted in grade 2, grade 2 makes you both stronger and faster


I usually held the belief that grade 4 drew out the full limit of the super Saiyan form without drawbacks (a guide for the anime said this is believe, but I don't really remember), but the show introduced it as a stamina conservative form, so, I guess not, it's weird tho, it would be better to introduce grade 4 as having all the powers of 3 without any debuff since it has been mastered imo
 
Jaakor48 said:
it would be better to introduce grade 4 as having all the powers of 3 without any debuff since it has been mastered imo
Click to expand...
Third Grade and "mastered" are oxymoronic; the Power Stressed variants are explicitly an unnecessary physical power-up stack atop the original Super Saiyan form. For the form to be optimized, the excess fat needed to be removed.
 
Killerdrone123 said:
Ah i don't want to jump in but grade 4 is stronger than grade 1 vegeta got molly woped by 18 in his grade 1 but later he beat the shit out in super his super vegeta or grade 2 form same goes for grade 4 when goku was atleast contending with cell when vegeta got his ass kicked in grade 2 I dont think it has to do anything with stamina
Click to expand...
Goku's Base Form was stronger than Vegeta's, and Vegeta's Base Form was LEAGUES above his own Base Form when he fought 18.
In fact, even Trunks before he was Grade 2 was considered a threat to Cell. You ignore the fact their base power increases every time they train like crazy, it's not stationary.

MSSJ Goku > 2x > Grade 3 Post-HTC SSJ Trunks > 10x > Grade 2 Post-HTC SSJ Trunks = Grade 2 Post-HTC SSJ Vegeta > Semi-Perfect Cell => Grade 1 Post-HTC SSJ Vegeta => Grade 1 Post-HTC SSJ Trunks >>> Imperfect Cell (Humans Absorbed) = 16 > 17 = Kami-Piccolo => 18 => Grade 1 SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku => Future 17 > 2x > SSJ Future Gohan ~ SSJ Future Trunks > Mecha Frieza > SSJ Namek Goku > 1.25x > Final Form Frieza > 40x > Base Post-Zenkai Goku > Third Form Frieza > Nail-Piccolo = Second Form Frieza ~ Kaioken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku > First Form Frieza > Kaioken x2 Pre-Zenkai Goku = Oozaru Vegeta > 2x > Base Pre-Zenkai Goku > 5x > Saiyan Saga Vegeta > Kaioken x2 Goku > 2x > Base Goku > Nappa > Piccolo > Gohan > Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Saibamen > Chiaotzu > Raditz > 4yo Gohan (FP) > 3x > BoZ Goku (1/20th of Base Goku) > BoZ Piccolo > 23rd Budokai Goku ~ Piccolo Jr > 2x > King Piccolo Arc Goku = King Piccolo > 2x > 22nd Budokai Goku = 22nd Budokai Tien > Yamcha > 22nd Budokai Jackie Chun > Post-Korin Son Goku > 20x > BoS Kid Goku > x2 > Human

.... I think I went a bit overboard here. SO, MSSJ GOKU IS AT LEAST 1.280.000.000x STRONGER THAN A HUMAN's PL.... Oh wait, that's useless.
 
The_Yellow_Topaz said:
Goku's Base Form was stronger than Vegeta's, and Vegeta's Base Form was LEAGUES above his own Base Form when he fought 18.
In fact, even Trunks before he was Grade 2 was considered a threat to Cell. You ignore the fact their base power increases every time they train like crazy, it's not stationary.

MSSJ Goku > 2x > Grade 3 Post-HTC SSJ Trunks > 10x > Grade 2 Post-HTC SSJ Trunks = Grade 2 Post-HTC SSJ Vegeta > Semi-Perfect Cell => Grade 1 Post-HTC SSJ Vegeta => Grade 1 Post-HTC SSJ Trunks >>> Imperfect Cell (Humans Absorbed) = 16 > 17 = Kami-Piccolo => 18 => Grade 1 SSJ Vegeta > SSJ Goku => Future 17 > 2x > SSJ Future Gohan ~ SSJ Future Trunks > Mecha Frieza > SSJ Namek Goku > 1.25x > Final Form Frieza > 40x > Base Post-Zenkai Goku > Third Form Frieza > Nail-Piccolo = Second Form Frieza ~ Kaioken x10 Pre-Zenkai Goku > First Form Frieza > Kaioken x2 Pre-Zenkai Goku = Oozaru Vegeta > 2x > Base Pre-Zenkai Goku > 5x > Saiyan Saga Vegeta > Kaioken x2 Goku > 2x > Base Goku > Nappa > Piccolo > Gohan > Tien > Krillin > Yamcha > Saibamen > Chiaotzu > Raditz > 4yo Gohan (FP) > 3x > BoZ Goku (1/20th of Base Goku) > BoZ Piccolo > 23rd Budokai Goku ~ Piccolo Jr > 2x > King Piccolo Arc Goku = King Piccolo > 2x > 22nd Budokai Goku = 22nd Budokai Tien > Yamcha > 22nd Budokai Jackie Chun > Post-Korin Son Goku > 20x > BoS Kid Goku > x2 > Human

.... I think I went a bit overboard here. SO, MSSJ GOKU IS AT LEAST 1.280.000.000x STRONGER THAN A HUMAN's PL.... Oh wait, that's useless.
Click to expand...
"Nuh uh"
 
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