Dragon Ball Super Discussion Thread 100

[Ednaxel2]

And even then, we don't seem to consider DBFZ in the same Canon as heroes since Android 21 AP is not higher than 2-C

That’s not an actual reason for canonicity.

Android 21 exists in DBFZ; same Android 21 exists in heroes.

Why? We know DBFZ is canon to Heroes but there’s no reason to assume it’s the same likewise

 

[RedReaper616]

That would create a massive ton of contradictions so idk about that

I mean, the general rule of thumb for the Toei Films we already accept is that we ignore the contradictions, because they clearly happened within the scope of the plot. For example, Dead Zone cannot fit whatsoever. Dragon Balls would be inert when Raditz appeared, Goku and Gohan can't have reunited with the other Z-Team yet because of what we know about the DB-Z Timeskip, etc. etc. But it must fit because of the Garlic Jr. Return Saga in the Z Anime, and their Sacred Water from that Saga cures the Tufflization in Baby's Saga. It can't happen, and yet it objectively must. Same with Fusion Reborn already, with how Gotenks and Mystic Gohan exists, but Goku and Vegeta are simulanteously dead, Buu has been defeated (somehow), the Afterlife Tournament is happening again (despite it being heavily implied in the original Tournament these are rare events that don't take place in millenia), etc. But it must fit due to the Perfect Files, so we ignore those inconsistencies. The same would apply to all of the Z-Films.

 

[Omegabronic]

Actually, that's one thing I find weird. We count Fusion Reborn as canon, so by proxy every Toei Movie (except Super Android 13) should be canon, as they all exist within the Fusion Reborn film. I actually might put that as part of my GT Revision CRT...

Eh, no? Like, 1 minot appearence vs the severe contradictions most, if not all, of them have

In fact, that is more evidence for Fusion Reborn being non cannon than anything

 

[Omegabronic]

I mean, the general rule of thumb for the Toei Films we already accept is that we ignore the contradictions

.....no? Cooler and Hirudegarn are consideres cannon purely because they have no contradictions

because they clearly happened within the scope of the plot. For example, Dead Zone cannot fit whatsoever. Dragon Balls would be inert when Raditz appeared, Goku and Gohan can't have reunited with the other Z-Team yet because of what we know about the DB-Z Timeskip, etc. etc. But it must fit because of the Garlic Jr. Return Saga in the Z Anime, and their Sacred Water from that Saga cures the Tufflization in Baby's Saga. It can't happen, and yet it objectively must.

yeah, which is why we assume it is simply a retcon that the anime made over the movie, something that is......incredibly hard to argue when you have to retcon and basically rewritte most of the stories of the movies for them to fit

Same with Fusion Reborn already, with how Gotenks and Mystic Gohan exists, but Goku and Vegeta are simulanteously dead, Buu has been defeated (somehow), the Afterlife Tournament is happening again (despite it being heavily implied in the original Tournament these are rare events that don't take place in millenia), etc. But it must fit due to the Perfect Files, so we ignore those inconsistencies. The same would apply to all of the Z-Films.

Does it need to fit to the perfect files? What is the exact statement there again? Migjt be worth making a thread over it

 

[Sus]

I mean, the general rule of thumb for the Toei Films we already accept is that we ignore the contradictions, because they clearly happened within the scope of the plot. For example, Dead Zone cannot fit whatsoever. Dragon Balls would be inert when Raditz appeared, Goku and Gohan can't have reunited with the other Z-Team yet because of what we know about the DB-Z Timeskip, etc. etc. But it must fit because of the Garlic Jr. Return Saga in the Z Anime, and their Sacred Water from that Saga cures the Tufflization in Baby's Saga. It can't happen, and yet it objectively must. Same with Fusion Reborn already, with how Gotenks and Mystic Gohan exists, but Goku and Vegeta are simulanteously dead, Buu has been defeated (somehow), the Afterlife Tournament is happening again (despite it being heavily implied in the original Tournament these are rare events that don't take place in millenia), etc. But it must fit due to the Perfect Files, so we ignore those inconsistencies. The same would apply to all of the Z-Films.

i agree with this

another reason is that despite not fitting, each film represents a specific saga with powers being similar supported by guidebooks (deadzone = raditz saga, world's strongest = vegeta saga, etc..)
so i think they're usable scaling wise

btw what's the canonicity of BoG and RoF films?

 

[Fezzih_007]

The only way Fusion reborn would be Canon, is If we take Buu Fury aphroach.

Because the film really can't fit.

 

[Sus]

.....no? Cooler and Hirudegarn are consideres cannon purely because they have no contradictions

they do, but it's minor
also cooler is accepted because frieza is mentioned to have a brother

 

[Sus]

The only way Fusion reborn would be Canon, is If we take Buu Fury aphroach.

Because the film really can't fit.

almost all movies can't fit
only movie that has absolutely no contradiction is wrath of the dragon i think

return of cooler has the tiny contradiction of showing dende on earth

bojack also only misses trunks departure time

 

[CloverDragon03]

Ngl if Goku and Gohan weren't in their base forms I think the first Broly movie could be canon

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Ngl if Goku and Gohan weren't in their base forms I think the first Broly movie could be canon

It fits perfectly in the 10 days leading up to the Cell Games.

 

[Fezzih_007]

return of cooler has the tiny contradiction of showing dende on earth

But we don't consider return of cooler Canon trought, only Revenge of cooler is Canon. Which don't have much contradictions, i think.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

But we don't consider return of cooler Canon trought, only Revenge of cooler is Canon. Which don't have much contradictions, i think.

The only contradiction is Goku needing a trigger to go Super Saiyan rather than transforming outright and beating his ass.

 

[Omegabronic]

they do, but it's minor

Such as?

also cooler is accepted because frieza is mentioned to have a brother

When?

almost all movies can't fit
only movie that has absolutely no contradiction is wrath of the dragon i think

Which is why most of them aren't

return of cooler has the tiny contradiction of showing dende on earth

bojack also only misses trunks departure time

Neither of those is cannon

 

[Sus]

Ngl if Goku and Gohan weren't in their base forms I think the first Broly movie could be canon

why though? goku already terrified the Z fighters with half his strength
him being Stronger than vegeta in base form is ok

But we don't consider return of cooler Canon trought, only Revenge of cooler is Canon. Which don't have much contradictions, i think.

i know, im just saying these 2 movies are not canon despite fitting more than others

Such as?

cooler one was already mentioned above, WoD is perfectly fine

when?

not sure actually but i do remember it

which is why most of them aren't

neither of those is cannon

i know i didn't claim otherwise

 

[CloverDragon03]

why though? goku already terrified the Z fighters with half his strength
him being Stronger than vegeta in base form is ok

Bro that's not the problem

The problem is that in the days leading up to the Cell Games, Goku and Gohan were always naturally in their Super Saiyan forms, yet in the movie they're in base form

 

[Sus]

Bro that's not the problem

The problem is that in the days leading up to the Cell Games, Goku and Gohan were always naturally in their Super Saiyan forms, yet in the movie they're in base form

oh i see, this is honestly as minor as the cooler and bojack contradictions

 

[Fezzih_007]

It fits perfectly in the 10 days leading up to the Cell Games.

I don't know about perfectly, since If we take for granted, the week and a half as Jam packed.

Like, considering the filler content of the anime, then Goku and co fixing the Dragon balls issues, and some characters are taking turns to enter the time Chamber, and then we put Broly into the mix.

Like, It still can fits, but being perfectly is ehhhhh.

 

[Omegabronic]

not sure actually but i do remember it

Are you sure? I don't remember that

 

[Sus]

Are you sure? I don't remember that

he appears in GT
i remember seeing it somewhere else but what i found rn is from GT

 

[Sus]

can someone give me the thread where the 4 movies were accepted?

 

[Sus]

btw what's the canonicity of BoG and RoF films

 

[Huesito88]

Bro that's not the problem

The problem is that in the days leading up to the Cell Games, Goku and Gohan were always naturally in their Super Saiyan forms, yet in the movie they're in base form

Weren't Goku and Gohan going to do a school interview with Chi Chi?

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Weren't Goku and Gohan going to do a school interview with Chi Chi?

Yes.

 

[Sus]

if we accept movies based on not being contradictory why not accept bojack and return of cooler?

 

[Fezzih_007]

if we accept movies based on not being contradictory why not accept bojack and return of cooler?

But return of cooler is contradictory.
Like, the age It takes place and dende being god.

 

[Sus]

But return of cooler is contradictory.
Like, the age It takes place and dende being god.

it's less contradictory than first cooler movie and that's accepted

 

[Fezzih_007]

it's less contradictory than first cooler movie

What? No is not.

Gohan age, and dendê being god kinda ruins everything.

 

[Ednaxel2]

The events of Cooler’s Revenge and Dead Zone were also included in a timeline consisting of the mainline + toei anime events of the series

Dragon Ball Daizenshuu 7: Pages 15-33

Imo Fusion Reborn is definitely the weakest of the 4 films for being canon

 

[RedReaper616]

.....no? Cooler and Hirudegarn are consideres cannon purely because they have no contradictions

Cooler's considered canon because there's no contradictions, one of the Daizenshuu implies he's apart of the Timeline, AND he LITERALLY APPEARS in GT. Wrath of the Dragon is considered canon solely because Goku uses Dragon Fist, which debuted from that film, and because GT Trunks has Tapion's Sword, also, yes, because of lack of contradictions. However, Deadzone and Fusion Reborn do not fit this mould, and those are the films I explicitly referenced for this rule, so bringing up Cooler and Hirudegarn is completely irrelevant.

yeah, which is why we assume it is simply a retcon that the anime made over the movie, something that is......incredibly hard to argue when you have to retcon and basically rewritte most of the stories of the movies for them to fit

Which is THE POINT I'M MAKING. We do it INHERENTLY for the other two, so there is NO REASON why we shouldn't for the rest that are indirectly made canon via Fusion Reborn.

Does it need to fit to the perfect files? What is the exact statement there again? Migjt be worth making a thread over it

That's a valid but separate matter from the point. Questioning whether the Perfect Files adequately do enough to make Fusion Reborn Canon in itself is totally fine and I think it's worth bringing up in a new CRT, but is totally separate from the actual point in hand: As it currently stands, the logic that allows Dead Zone and Fusion Reborn ignore their contradictions also applies to the other Z-Films.

 

[Sus]

Wrath of the Dragon is considered canon solely because Goku uses Dragon Fist, which debuted from that film, and because GT Trunks has Tapion's Sword

weaker evidence than my relationship with my father

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

Question-As I'm working on this GT profile, I'm about to remove NPI ("Can harm the Ghost Warriors"), because as far as I'm aware, Plan to Eradicate the Saiyans isn't accepted as part of the Toei Canon. If it is, can I be told the reasons why so I know whether or not I should remove the ability?

Just change the example, for example Piccolo interacting with souls in the Toei Anime. There’s a plethora of different ones in the DB games Ki album that belong to the toeiverse you can find some good examples.

 

[Sus]

btw what's the canonicity of BoG and RoF films?

 

[Fezzih_007]

Canonicity to what? Because is not Canon to DBS, nor is Canon to toei.

 

[Omegabronic]

if we accept movies based on not being contradictory why not accept bojack

trunks is there when he should be back to his future

and return of cooler?

......that one cannot fit ANYWHERE in the timeline, what do you mean "no contradictions"?

Cooler's considered canon because there's no contradictions, one of the Daizenshuu implies he's apart of the Timeline, AND he LITERALLY APPEARS in GT.

yeah.......so since the Guide isn't contradicting the anime, as in, the movie has no contradictions, we accept it as cannon

Wrath of the Dragon is considered canon solely because Goku uses Dragon Fist, which debuted from that film, and because GT Trunks has Tapion's Sword, also, yes, because of lack of contradictions.

.....yeah.......so because it has no contradictions and explains stuff.........why say the same i said?

, and those are the films I explicitly referenced for this rule, so bringing up Cooler and Hirudegarn is completely irrelevant.

..........what? no, you said it was a "rule of thumb" when no such a thing is possible, else all movies would be cannon by default, Fusion Reborn or not, the very fact that if the 2 movies mentioned had contradictions they wouldn't have been accepted is proof enough that such rule you spoke of doesn't exist

Which is THE POINT I'M MAKING. We do it INHERENTLY for the other two, so there is NO REASON why we shouldn't for the rest that are indirectly made canon via Fusion Reborn.

"iherently"? no, for Garlic Jr it is a very, VERY specific case where the main cannon material, the anime, makes him appear with a saga for himself, thus making him need to be cannon by default regardless of the problems his movie has

Neither Fusion Reborn, nor any of the other movies, has such privilege, if you are going to use the perfect files.........well, that is secondary cannon, if the main cannon contradicts it, then it is as good as nothing, the Anime gives no way for all the movies fusion reborn show to be cannon, therefore Fusion Reborn can't be cannon alongside those movies

i am now decided and certain in making a thread for fusion reborn now, thank you for showing me how much non sense that one being cannon truly is

That's a valid but separate matter from the point. Questioning whether the Perfect Files adequately do enough to make Fusion Reborn Canon in itself is totally fine and I think it's worth bringing up in a new CRT, but is totally separate from the actual point in hand: As it currently stands, the logic that allows Dead Zone and Fusion Reborn ignore their contradictions also applies to the other Z-Films.

no, Dead Zone has a VERY specific reason for why it has to be cannon, if you saw the problems with Fusion Reborn being cannon, your first instinct should be correcting it instead of trying to apply the wrong logic to all other movies imo

 

[RedReaper616]

"iherently"? no, for Garlic Jr it is a very, VERY specific case where the main cannon material, the anime, makes him appear with a saga for himself, thus making him need to be cannon by default regardless of the problems his movie has

Literally what I'm describing. The inherent disregard of the contradictions due to what must happen. I feel like you're not actually taking in what I'm saying.

Neither Fusion Reborn, nor any of the other movies, has such privilege, if you are going to use the perfect files.........well, that is secondary cannon, if the main cannon contradicts it, then it is as good as nothing, the Anime gives no way for all the movies fusion reborn show to be cannon, therefore Fusion Reborn can't be cannon alongside those movies

The Perfect Files act as the Daizenshuu for GT, one, TWO, this runs into the issues of applying a double standard. Garlic Jr gets to disregard his contradictions due to what we're shown/told. We are "told" (as that statement is iffy) that Fusion Reborn is canon, ergo, the contradictions, like Dead Zone, do not matter. You either reject Dead Zone, or you allow the others the same standards. It's literally that simple.

i am now decided and certain in making a thread for fusion reborn now, thank you for showing me how much non sense that one being cannon truly is

Interested to see how it goes.

no, Dead Zone has a VERY specific reason for why it has to be cannon, if you saw the problems with Fusion Reborn being cannon, your first instinct should be correcting it instead of trying to apply the wrong logic to all other movies imo

...
NO?
I'm saying the logic should be applied without double standards. If the statement is still considered rock solid in your new thread, then Fusion Reborn stays canon, it would be on the foundation of ignoring contradictions. This then makes other films canon, and any contradictions, LIKE DEAD ZONE, should be ignored for the same reasons. If this is NOT the CASE, then DEAD ZONE should ALSO be non-canon. (Under the hypothetical Fusion Reborn maintains Canon.) I'm discussing the strange double standard you're applying.

Nothing more, nothing less.

And I repeated what you said to give more context, because Cooler and Wrath of the Dragon "having no contradictions" ultimately didn't matter whatsoever in canonizing it those films outside of making it easier to believe. The actual bits that canonized them were specific moves, guides, cameos, etc.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

One thing i'm sure of, Goku solos the verse

 

[Omegabronic]

Literally what I'm describing. The inherent disregard of the contradictions due to what must happen. I feel like you're not actually taking in what I'm saying.

oh no, i get what you are saying........i am just saying that this doesn't apply to Fusion Reborn, or any of the other movies, at all

The Perfect Files act as the Daizenshuu for GT, one

i mean, that's cool but it doesn't change my point really, still secondary to the main material itself

, TWO, this runs into the issues of applying a double standard. Garlic Jr gets to disregard his contradictions due to what we're shown/told. We are "told" (as that statement is iffy) that Fusion Reborn is canon, ergo, the contradictions, like Dead Zone, do not matter. You either reject Dead Zone, or you allow the others the same standards. It's literally that simple.

no because what "tells" us that Garlic Jr happen is the main cannon material itself, which is main cannon and holds the utmost importance in deciding what is cannon to itself or not as it is the base material, perfect files on the other hand, is secondary material, which needs to conform to the main cannon's sets, not the opposite, if it contradicts the main cannon, then we don't use it as it is secondary to said main cannon, now if the main cannon said "fusion reborn happened" then we would need to conform to it as a retcon since the main cannon has as much priority as itself because......it is itself

there is no "double standards" here as the 2 sources that talk about the 2 movies are different levels of canonicity, by default, one being much higher than the other

Interested to see how it goes.

thank you for the support, not joking with what i will say next btw, would you mind if i gave you credits for the inspiration to the thread?

...
NO?
I'm saying the logic should be applied without double standards. If the statement is still considered rock solid in your new thread, then Fusion Reborn stays canon, it would be on the foundation of ignoring contradictions. This then makes other films canon, and any contradictions, LIKE DEAD ZONE, should be ignored for the same reasons. If this is NOT the CASE, then DEAD ZONE should ALSO be non-canon. (Under the hypothetical Fusion Reborn maintains Canon.) I'm discussing the strange double standard you're applying.

Nothing more, nothing less.

and i just explained why, by nature, it isn't a double standard, a guide does not have more cannonicity than the main material it is covering, if said material contradicts the guide, then we ignore it

And I repeated what you said to give more context, because Cooler and Wrath of the Dragon "having no contradictions" ultimately didn't matter whatsoever in canonizing it those films outside of making it easier to believe. The actual bits that canonized them were specific moves, guides, cameos, etc.

it having no contradictions was OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE for them being accepted as cannon, if Hirudegarn, for example, had egregious contradictions like, say, Three of Might, then it wouldn't have ever been accepted as cannon to begin with

 

[BitestDust]

There are some leftover movies with no canonicality pointers, and there is a dead zone written into the timeline, and twice - through the databooks and through a separate arc in DBZ. In such cases, it's obviously necessary to ignore some inconsistencies, since the episodes themselves are established as absolute canon. It's not a matter of contradictions, it's a matter of the absoluteness of canon, against which nothing can be done.

 

[RedReaper616]

oh no, i get what you are saying........i am just saying that this doesn't apply to Fusion Reborn, or any of the other movies, at all

It literally does.

i mean, that's cool but it doesn't change my point really, still secondary to the main material itself

What helps validate Cooler is literally a few frames and an actual guide.

no because what "tells" us that Garlic Jr happen is the main cannon material itself, which is main cannon and holds the utmost importance in deciding what is cannon to itself or not as it is the base material, perfect files on the other hand, is secondary material, which needs to conform to the main cannon's sets, not the opposite, if it contradicts the main cannon, then we don't use it as it is secondary to said main cannon, now if the main cannon said "fusion reborn happened" then we would need to conform to it as a retcon since the main cannon has as much priority as itself because......it is itself

This argument is circular and self-defeating.

If it being true allows the ignoring of contradictions, then by all accounts secondary sources written by the people who created GT validating it should then allow ignoring of contradictions. This means those same contradictions can’t disprove a secondary source, by that same token. To illustrate what I mean:

Canon Allows Ignoring Contradictions -> Guide Establishes Canon -> Contradictions Disprove Canoncity -> Canon Allows Ignoring Contradictions.

there is no "double standards" here as the 2 sources that talk about the 2 movies are different levels of canonicity, by default, one being much higher than the other

There absolutely is. It being from a guide (which also is the most primary piece of evidence for Cooler) does not make it less important when the whole point of the discussion is being canon allows you to ignore the contradictions (ala Dead Zone).

thank you for the support, not joking with what i will say next btw, would you mind if i gave you credits for the inspiration to the thread?

Sure.

and i just explained why, by nature, it isn't a double standard, a guide does not have more cannonicity than the main material it is covering, if said material contradicts the guide, then we ignore it


it having no contradictions was OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE for them being accepted as cannon, if Hirudegarn, for example, had egregious contradictions like, say, Three of Might, then it wouldn't have ever been accepted as cannon to begin with

By this standard, Bojack Unbound should also be canon. As should the original LSSJ Broly film. There’s no contradictions. The reason why it’s not accepted as canon is because there are no pointers of canoncity. The contradictions, or lack thereof, literally do not matter. And yes, he would have, because Tapion’s Sword appears in GT, as does the Ryuken, things that originate from that film, necessarily meaning that they are canon. Again: Contradictions aren’t the issue, the “absoluteness of canon” (as BitestDust puts it) IS. (As in, things that prove what does/MUST happen regardless of the inconsistencies that do or do not exist.)

 

[Quantu]