Dragon Ball Revisions that will make u cry

[Rodri_"Dante"]

Later on in every arc up until the Saiyan Saga we see the full power of stronger characters and it is always billions of times weaker than moon level.

I just wanna point out that we could apply this logic to the end of the Frieza Saga onwards, downgrade every character to High 5-A, and treat SP Cell's Solar System busting statement as an outlier.

I'm not on either side, just a small nitpick.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Vegeta final flash can only destroy the planet high 5-A and onward is an outlier.

 

[SuperGodzilla_Kaiju_King]

No one in Chou scales to 3-A cut in half tho? The 3-B feat is destroying the universe over an unknown time frame, not destroying half of the universe or something like that.

The fight didn't last very long in the manga, and the statement came after a single strike from the two clashing, with Goku noting he was getting stronger as the fight went on when he launched the Kamehameha. There isn't a time frame given, true, but they only hit each other about 4 times after that. And Goku is not held back by Beerus' fight with Champa being universal as both of them weren't really serious and were just bickering about berries.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Can we please drop those arguments right now? Antvasima told you guys to stop and everyone post Frieza saga has multiple statements about being extremely casual planet busters.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

So what? We use Piccolo's island blast to downplay him why can't we do the same about Vegeta's final flash? Name one instance where a DB character pre SPC stated they can destroy a star.

 

[Maverick_Zero_X]

Inb4 a topic ban

Anyway, I agree with Zamasu tbh

 

[Antvasima]

Several staff members have told you to drop this subject repeatedly. I would suggest that you follow instructions, accept that this isn't getting accepted, and let it go, as you are turning into a bother for others.

 

[00potato]

That isn’t how it works, if it helps his point, then let him bring it up. You don’t just shut down part of a conversation just because staff want to shut it down.

 

[00potato]

Many people have agreed with him too, you cannot just ignore them when you feel like it. Just because it is bothering you doesn’t mean that the conversation shouldn’t happen or that nobody cares.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Several staff members have told you to drop this subject repeatedly. I would suggest that you follow instructions, accept that this isn't getting accepted, and let it go, as you are turning into a bother for others.

Is this the nice way of telling me to shut up? I'm actively pointing out a flaw, a blatant double standard. There are inconsistencies with the arguments on the opposite side but you don't see that. Telling people "we've been over this already" is such a dismissive and close minded argument (if you could even call it that). This a blatant Appeal To Tradition (This is when someone claims that an argument must be true because it's the way things have always been done previously, or the thing that people always believed before.) You've had the same arguments since 2014 and they make zero sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Not if you bring the same thing up over and over again; it becomes spam when done that far. Especially if the same things and the same sub counter arguments have been brought up and addressed many time before. Also, downplay and wank are both strong words, the difference is many Dragon Ball saga characters have "Their strongest attack" calculated at Tier 7 to 6 and with someone else considered equal to Roshi having his strongest attack Tier 8, and Roshi has both a Tier 7 and Tier 5 feat from "His strongest attack". The former is consistent with the current era scaling chain while the latter just breaks and says, "Let's make everyone Tier 5". Here, the difference is the next moon level feat is casual and done by someone far above teen counter parts keeping the chain consistent, as is the planet level statement, then the High 5-A feat was also casual with even more casual planet buster statements, then the 4-B feat also comes from the strongest attack that's backed up by every medium. And post Cell, Kid Buu still has multiple statements of him being "Powerful enough to destroy every planet and star in the universe over time. None of the inbetweeners between Vegeta to Frieza, Frieza to Cell, Cell to Buu, or Buu to Beerus have ever been in the same situation of their strongest attack meant to destroy as much as possible forced them into a state of exaustion.

People really need to cut out with the anti middle ground mindsets.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Why are you guys arbitrarily saying Ki control doesn’t exist until the Android saga? Because Ki control is the key player here.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

It always existed, the problem is that very few characters made the best use of it until then.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It does it exist and always existed, the problem is that very few characters made the best use of it until then.

[Headcanon]
If Piccolo couldn’t control his Ki then all his attacks would’ve destroyed the island.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

That was a strawman, never said he couldn't or anyone for that matter. Quite the contrary. Also, I don't personally have the problem with 5-C Dragon Ball saga, but many other staff members do. What does bother me is the U-turn of everyone saying "Why don't we call Frieza's feat and outlier and Cell's feat a hyperbole?" nonsense. Like seriously, I'm pretty sure you guys don't want that to actually happen and the delivery and timing of it is out of control.

I've been trying to keep both sides civilized and we even told another former Admin to avoid the vulgar language and his over bluntness. But AKM Sama was by far being the most reasonable person on this whole thread. And even though people like Julian and SomebodyData also supported 5-C, I'm pretty sure they agree that it's best to stay on topic and try to avoid making this a conspiracy.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Quite the contrary. Also, I don't personally have the problem with 5-C Dragon Ball saga, but many other staff members do.

Then why are you arguing on behalf of other staff and why do you disagree??

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

Me not having a personal problem doesn't mean I don't disagree with it. It's more like a good in theory, but not so good in practice situation. I'm not arguing because I want to, I argue because I literally have to. All I want is for there to be more peace and for balance to be maintained. But duties and job come before desires unfortunately.

Yes, 5-C Roshi is literally the only destruction feat in the history of Dragon Ball to be a high end outlier AP wise. But given the context of characters progressing, 90% of high end feats all make sense. DMUA also elaborated saying that all those other Dragon Ball examples was Piccolo Sr and Jr literally trying to destroy as much of the land as possible, and not just harness all their energy on one target nor hold back their energy to cause little destruction like nearly every fight scene post Saiyan saga has been.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

What proof is there of that though?! KP literally wiped his hand extremely casually and destroyed the city. Remember when Frieza did something very similar on Namek?

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

I don’t think people understand what this is saying. It’s not just a callback to Roshi blowing up the moon. It’s literally saying it’s stronger than Roshi’s moon busting Kamehameha!

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Goku learned Ki control ever since he knew the Kamehameha. To say that Piccolo fuvking JR can’t is [Headcanon]. You guys need to actually prove that he can’t control his Ki. A statement is all you need but guess what. There. Are. None...

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

I don’t think people understand what this is saying. It’s not just a callback to Roshi blowing up the moon. It’s literally saying it’s stronger than Roshi’s moon busting Kamehameha!

Thats exactly what a callback is though?

The databook isnt saying the Super Kamehameha can destroy the moon, its saying its stronger than Roshi's Kamehameha which can shatter the moon. Thats calling back to Roshi's feat, which is the outlier in this discussion.

If it wasn't a call back, Roshi's feat wouldnt be mentioned in this. Super Kamehameha isn't an additional moon feat, its something scaling above the same exact moon feat through statements.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

It’s saying Goku’s Kamehameha is higher than a moon busting Kamehameha. You guys are always willing to choose the dumb Daizenshuu statements over the coherent ones.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

He didn't say it wasn't a callback, he said it was also saying it was above what it is calling back to. And I don't see the relevance of calling it an outlier when that's what the discussion is about.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

It’s saying Goku’s Kamehameha is higher than a moon busting Kamehameha.

Yes, which is a callback to the exact same feat. Scaling something that comes later on above what's considered an outlier...doesn't make it not an outlier.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

We are arguing the feat is not an outlier.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

We are arguing the feat is not an outlier.

Yes, and part of your argument is using a daizenshuu entry of something thats scaling above a feat that, at the moment, is considered an outlier. That's counter-intuitive argumentation.

 

[XSOULOFCINDERX]

Are we seriously still on this? I've been gone literally all day long. I thought we had a fuckton of People agreeing it isn't an Outlier already?

 

[GojiBoyForever]

The entry helps support the fact it isn't an outlier by giving another statement talking of Roshis Moon Busting power.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

You guys have been here long enough to know a number difference in voting doesnt make your argument automatically ironclad.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

The entry helps support the fact it isn't an outlier by giving another statement talking of Roshis Moon Busting power.

But its not another statement in the way your thinking it is though. Its a statement thats relying on scaling above a current outlier feat.

What would help your arguments if if it was a completely new feat of that scale, which...it isin't.

 

[GojiBoyForever]

Outlier in your eyes.

 

[Greenshifter]

I see where Kukui is coming from. The only thing this could prove is that it’s not PIS.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Outlier in your eyes.

No, its how its currently treated here, so yes its considered an outlier by us. Just because your attempting to disprove it doesnt change the fact that its currently viewed in that light.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

No, its how its currently treated here, so yes its considered an outlier by us. Just because your attempting to disprove it doesnt change the fact that its currently viewed in that light.

And just because it’s treated as an outlier does not make it a fact.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

And just because it’s treated as an outlier does not make it a fact.

Thats not what I said at all but okay.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Don’t try to pull a fast one on me. “Oh I never said it was a fact” that doesn’t matter. If you’re arguing against you obviously disagree.

 

[ProfessorKukui4Life]

Don’t try to pull a fast one on me. “Oh I never said it was a fact” that doesn’t matter. If you’re arguing against you obviously disagree.

Then dont put words I never said in my mouth.

All I said at this time is that you cant use scaling that calls directly back to a feat we currently consider an outlier to try and disprove it being an outlier. Thats very circular argumentation and is wrong.

 

[Zamasu_Chan]

Then dont put words I never said in my mouth.

What are you even talking about? I never said you said anything. Wtf?

All I said at this time is that you cant use scaling that calls directly back to a feat we currently consider an outlier to try and disprove it being an outlier. Thats very circular argumentation and is wrong.

Fair.

 

[AKM sama]

Since there is another DB thread, according to the rule of only 1 ongoing thread per verse, I think we should close this one because like I said, each topic in the OP needs a thread of its own. Currently this is a clusterfuck of multiple topics. Moon level Roshi was being debated for the most part but such a big and controversial subject will require input from majority of the staff members so that it could be dealt with once and for all. And currently this thread is too much of a mess for that to be possible.

 

[Rikimarox2]

I knew this thread will be a clusterfuck, but not to this point...