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Interesting. I'll ask him about that.
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Dragon Ball Multipliers and its inconsistency
- Thread starter M3X_2.0
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- dragon ball multipliers
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I'm writing up a lengthy post atm.
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Or maybe just a detailed explanations page for the verse? Like stating the root speed that the multipliers work on, and why they're used?
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The problem with the 0.25 calculation is that the accepted Attack Potency feat is based on the calculation being Sub-Relativistic+. The planet Vegeta busting feat would be more like Low 4-C if we went by the other speed calculation.
Second, as AKM Sama said, there are far too many factors to take into account. First of all, Dragon Ball is extremely linear when it comes to progression in power and speed. That doesn't mean the numbers and multipliers are linear, but Kaioken multipliers are. But still, Piccolo even back when he was 5-B is also Relativistic and there are far too many character A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B >>>>>>>>>>>>>> C >>>>>>>>>>>>>> D >>>>>>>>>>>>>> E incidents in Dragon Ball to just be ignored. For example, while it is arbitrary to go from Relativistic to FTL via a multipliers, it's even more arbitrary for someone who has a Power level jump from 325 to 8000 have the exact same tier and speed in the same verse where just a simple 260 to 325 jump is a jump from 7-B to 5-B plus a massive speed jump. Where a 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+ exists somewhere in between. Yes, PL's are BS, but so is ignoring the entire power scaling chain entirely and not considering the massive jumps that come afterwards. In fact, in the words of AVGN, "That's the equivalent of shit taking a shit."
When considering the whole Base Goku blitzes Nappa, who blitzes Piccolo and Gohan, who cane blitz Krillin, who can blitz Tien and Yamcha, who blitzed Saibamen, who is equal to Raditz, who blitzed Goku and Piccolo before the upgrades, who without training gear are faster than with training gear, where Piccolo did his own 0.14c feat. They really all should be way faster than 0.14c. And Goku's 4x multiplier to 0.56c is very uncontroversial given the jumps, and in fact; saying he's slower than that would be way more controversial than saying he's even higher than that.
Not only that, the 0.56c Vegeta being equal to Kaioken times for Goku, and then getting stronger than before via two Zekais was able to blitz Zarban and Dodoria, who would have blitzed Vegeta before hand. Then Vegata was still blitzed by Recoome who is slower than Burter, and Goku later came back and blitzed Recoome, Burter and Jeice combined without Kaioken. Then he was outmatched by Ginyu and would turn the stomp had he used Kaioken times 2, let alone 4 or 10. A simple 2x multipler for someone who should be super far above the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.56 is once again, only a massive low ball at this point. And this is ignoring Burter's supposed hyperbole of being the speed of light; he may not, but Goku is after coming a long way from not being too far behind.
Then, we have Frieza. And oh boy, not only should be be much faster than a 180,000 PL Kaioken 2 times Goku, as Goku himself wasn't even confident he can match him even with Kaioken times 10. Yes, their is a contradiction as some would assume the PL of 900,000, and why we only sticked with comaring 1st form Frieza to Kaioken x2 to be safe, but literally everything is lowballed. Second, Frieza actually does have his back up Death Beams being FTL in the Kaizenshu; we used to use it due to the vagueness and the lack of scans closer to FTL before hand. But the combination of the lowballed multipliers and the statement being used together more than makes up for it to return.
That's also not counting Frieza's 2nd and 3rd forms, Goku after his Zenkai being someone would could blitz and oneshot Frieza's 3rd form given Vegeta's statement. And needing to go Kaioken times 20 just to match 50% of his power, and SSJ well surpassing 100%. The statement for SSJ said 50, but we lowballed it as 40 given the math. And of course, they only got much stronger and faster, and we have to consider the massive gap between now and the eventual Quadrillions of times FTL later on. And there are other back up FTL feats such as Vegeta's Final Flash traveling interplanetary distances in seconds. And 4-B at the very beginning of DBS was in his base form and able to react to lasers on a 1000 G environment. I'm not suggesting anyone pre Dragon Ball Super to be upgraded to Massively FTL or above, but keep in mind that all of the current ratings all come from massive lowballs. And they way they are now are considered the least bad option. It's the same thing we did for all the Android Saga Tierings.
I'm late for work, but I needed to get this out of the way.
Second, as AKM Sama said, there are far too many factors to take into account. First of all, Dragon Ball is extremely linear when it comes to progression in power and speed. That doesn't mean the numbers and multipliers are linear, but Kaioken multipliers are. But still, Piccolo even back when he was 5-B is also Relativistic and there are far too many character A >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> B >>>>>>>>>>>>>> C >>>>>>>>>>>>>> D >>>>>>>>>>>>>> E incidents in Dragon Ball to just be ignored. For example, while it is arbitrary to go from Relativistic to FTL via a multipliers, it's even more arbitrary for someone who has a Power level jump from 325 to 8000 have the exact same tier and speed in the same verse where just a simple 260 to 325 jump is a jump from 7-B to 5-B plus a massive speed jump. Where a 6-B and Massively Hypersonic+ exists somewhere in between. Yes, PL's are BS, but so is ignoring the entire power scaling chain entirely and not considering the massive jumps that come afterwards. In fact, in the words of AVGN, "That's the equivalent of shit taking a shit."
When considering the whole Base Goku blitzes Nappa, who blitzes Piccolo and Gohan, who cane blitz Krillin, who can blitz Tien and Yamcha, who blitzed Saibamen, who is equal to Raditz, who blitzed Goku and Piccolo before the upgrades, who without training gear are faster than with training gear, where Piccolo did his own 0.14c feat. They really all should be way faster than 0.14c. And Goku's 4x multiplier to 0.56c is very uncontroversial given the jumps, and in fact; saying he's slower than that would be way more controversial than saying he's even higher than that.
Not only that, the 0.56c Vegeta being equal to Kaioken times for Goku, and then getting stronger than before via two Zekais was able to blitz Zarban and Dodoria, who would have blitzed Vegeta before hand. Then Vegata was still blitzed by Recoome who is slower than Burter, and Goku later came back and blitzed Recoome, Burter and Jeice combined without Kaioken. Then he was outmatched by Ginyu and would turn the stomp had he used Kaioken times 2, let alone 4 or 10. A simple 2x multipler for someone who should be super far above the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> 0.56 is once again, only a massive low ball at this point. And this is ignoring Burter's supposed hyperbole of being the speed of light; he may not, but Goku is after coming a long way from not being too far behind.
Then, we have Frieza. And oh boy, not only should be be much faster than a 180,000 PL Kaioken 2 times Goku, as Goku himself wasn't even confident he can match him even with Kaioken times 10. Yes, their is a contradiction as some would assume the PL of 900,000, and why we only sticked with comaring 1st form Frieza to Kaioken x2 to be safe, but literally everything is lowballed. Second, Frieza actually does have his back up Death Beams being FTL in the Kaizenshu; we used to use it due to the vagueness and the lack of scans closer to FTL before hand. But the combination of the lowballed multipliers and the statement being used together more than makes up for it to return.
That's also not counting Frieza's 2nd and 3rd forms, Goku after his Zenkai being someone would could blitz and oneshot Frieza's 3rd form given Vegeta's statement. And needing to go Kaioken times 20 just to match 50% of his power, and SSJ well surpassing 100%. The statement for SSJ said 50, but we lowballed it as 40 given the math. And of course, they only got much stronger and faster, and we have to consider the massive gap between now and the eventual Quadrillions of times FTL later on. And there are other back up FTL feats such as Vegeta's Final Flash traveling interplanetary distances in seconds. And 4-B at the very beginning of DBS was in his base form and able to react to lasers on a 1000 G environment. I'm not suggesting anyone pre Dragon Ball Super to be upgraded to Massively FTL or above, but keep in mind that all of the current ratings all come from massive lowballs. And they way they are now are considered the least bad option. It's the same thing we did for all the Android Saga Tierings.
I'm late for work, but I needed to get this out of the way.
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No. Because it's still a double standard.
I say this every single time for my analogy when this comes up.
Deoxys, Mewtwo and Rayquaza are three of the fastest Pokemon in the entire series. Golem is one of the slowest. Golem has a .52c feat. They don't have to be even 2x faster than one of the slowest Pokemon to be FTL. Yet they're still Rel+. Same with a full Triforce Link being in the same speed tier as an iteration of him without any Triforce (BotW Link). Dragon Ball shouldn't get special treatment.
I say this every single time for my analogy when this comes up.
Deoxys, Mewtwo and Rayquaza are three of the fastest Pokemon in the entire series. Golem is one of the slowest. Golem has a .52c feat. They don't have to be even 2x faster than one of the slowest Pokemon to be FTL. Yet they're still Rel+. Same with a full Triforce Link being in the same speed tier as an iteration of him without any Triforce (BotW Link). Dragon Ball shouldn't get special treatment.
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"They don't have to be even 2x faster than one of the slowest Pokemon to be FTL"
And I've also told you many times I don't really have any problem with that. But your analogy is not applicable in this case because this case HAS a quantifiable linear increase. It's not a matter of "this character only needs to be this much faster". It's a matter of "this character IS this much faster".
As for making it more clear, the ratings are literally explained in Goku's profile:
Relativistic+ with Kaio-ken x4
Faster than his Saiyan Saga Kaio-ken x4 form
FTL+ with with Kaio-ken x20
etc
And I've also told you many times I don't really have any problem with that. But your analogy is not applicable in this case because this case HAS a quantifiable linear increase. It's not a matter of "this character only needs to be this much faster". It's a matter of "this character IS this much faster".
As for making it more clear, the ratings are literally explained in Goku's profile:
Relativistic+ with Kaio-ken x4
Faster than his Saiyan Saga Kaio-ken x4 form
FTL+ with with Kaio-ken x20
etc
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The only linear thing about it is that he says it's name. Every time it's used past Frieza, it's inconsistent. In fact, Frieza's he only time it's almost completely consistent. It's your average power boost against Vegeta and Ginyu. And let's not even get to DBS.
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Cal is making sense here as well tho
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@Cal Howard, that sounds like false equivalency. The difference is that no one in Pokemon is outright stated to have a specific X times faster than Golem. Also, is he really the slowest Pokemon if he's final evolution and Relativistic+ when characters like Pichu exist? Plus, another common trope in Pokemon is game mechanics. Even the slowest classes in Fire Emblem are capable of dodging and/or landing hits on the fastest classes, so they're sort of in the same tier. And even has all these levels where even a level 100 Pichu could take down Arceus. Pokemon also has different standards in which A being much stronger than B doesn't by default mean A is that much faster. In Dragon Ball, having significantly higher PL's by default assumes Character A is far superior to character B in every way.
It's generally ill advised to compare two or more verses with different standards, story structures, mediums, genres, ect. I'm not saying such comparisons aren't allowed at all, but the a lot of verses are vastly different. It makes perfect sense to compare Marvel, DC, and Image Comics to each other in terms of scaling standards due to them all them taking inconsistency to a whole new level. It makes sense for Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem to be compared to each other due to them all being RPG games with game mechanics and story distinctions. and it makes sense for Dragon Ball to be compared to Yu Yu Hakusho due to having a super linear Power level system.
Anyway, I was planning on making a blog post for the DBZ speed ratings at some point.
It's generally ill advised to compare two or more verses with different standards, story structures, mediums, genres, ect. I'm not saying such comparisons aren't allowed at all, but the a lot of verses are vastly different. It makes perfect sense to compare Marvel, DC, and Image Comics to each other in terms of scaling standards due to them all them taking inconsistency to a whole new level. It makes sense for Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Pokemon, and Fire Emblem to be compared to each other due to them all being RPG games with game mechanics and story distinctions. and it makes sense for Dragon Ball to be compared to Yu Yu Hakusho due to having a super linear Power level system.
Anyway, I was planning on making a blog post for the DBZ speed ratings at some point.
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Literally every time we're given a numerical placement, the Kaioken has been linear. It's described as linear (Giving two-fold increases in strength, three-fold, etc.) and the Multiplier is even in its name.The real cal howard said:
Please do name everytime it's used after Freeza Saga that it was inconsistent because last I checked, it was barely used past Freeza Saga at all and the only times it does show up in Z is in filler.
Also no, in Saiyan Saga, there's nothing supporting your claim that it's "Your average power boost" against Vegeta. Flat nill. And against Ginyu, again, we're literally given numbers quantifying the Kaioken increase which lives up to its name.
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I think that we at least need to officially link to an explanation blog in the Dragon Ball verse page, but an official discussion rule could work as well, yes.
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I would prefer if somebody adds an explanation blog link to the Dragon Ball verse page first.
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Yeah no I'm not dropping this. I dislike using multipliers in general, DB or any other franchise. DB's best feat in the entire series up until Super is Relativistic. No way in hell should they get FTL+ over multipliers. You want to keep the upgrades? Then back up the statements with feats. Feats>statements after all. It's not hard.
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@Cal, that is not true. Vegeta has his own feat that's well above Relativistic in Android saga, and his attack speed scales to his combat speed. His Final Flash destroyed a far away planet. Dodging Death Beams at point blank range also count as an FTL feat. And also pretty Cell's Solar Kamahameha would also be a back up for the speeds given he nukes the entire solar system. Also, we actually did accept a 10x multiplier for Ichigo and Kenpachi. And Star Wars was given an accepted 1000x multiplier for a certain light-saber crystal.
And side note, even Kid Goku has an FTL feat; it's a massive outlier much as early series Hiei's FTL feat is, but it still exists.
And I work on the explanation blog today.
And side note, even Kid Goku has an FTL feat; it's a massive outlier much as early series Hiei's FTL feat is, but it still exists.
And I work on the explanation blog today.
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Didn't Goku cross Namek in like a second?
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I think that was in the Viz Media version which we decided not to use. And the feat would have only been Sub-Relativistic+.
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Ok,
Dust_Collector
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I'm 90% sure that's meant to be the Final Flash leaving the Earth rather than some random shot of it hitting another planet. I recall seeing calcs on here and the Naruto Forums that put the Final Flash at Sub-Relativistic+ or low end relativistic.DarkDragonMedeus said:
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> His Final Flash destroyed a far away planet.
That's definitely not a far away planet.
That's the Earth.
> Dodging Death Beams also count as an FTL feat.
That depends. You don't need to be as fast as something to dodge it.
> And also pretty Cell's Solar Kamahameha would also be a back up for the speeds given he nukes the entire solar system.
There's no timeframe for that IIRC.
That's definitely not a far away planet.
That's the Earth.
> Dodging Death Beams also count as an FTL feat.
That depends. You don't need to be as fast as something to dodge it.
> And also pretty Cell's Solar Kamahameha would also be a back up for the speeds given he nukes the entire solar system.
There's no timeframe for that IIRC.
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I know the Anime version is non-canon, but we do see a giant explosion that happens after the Final Flash leaves earth; he also has Interplanetary range in that key for a reason. Oh wait, he has stellar and interplanetary comes from Cell's Solar Kamahameha.
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I don't think that means it had to have hit another planet. Could have been an asteroid, or just a visual effect like if Team Rocket got blasted into the sky there would be a twinkle.
If that's the only reason why he has Interplanetary range then that should probably be revised.
If that's the only reason why he has Interplanetary range then that should probably be revised.
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Cal we all know you've always been against this. You have also both made and been at the center of most of the threads involving this discussion. It doesn't change anything though. One of the first threads I made in the wiki about Goku having resistance to BFR for resisting Porunga's teleportation was rejected. While I still 100% stand by that, I don't bring it up every time.
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That actually sorta makes sense. I would have agreed with it.AKM sama said:
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