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Immortality Type 5/7 has its issues though...
Mind explaining this one?
Mind explaining this one?
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Aka the halo literally gives nothing outside Immortality 1 and some resistances (like Age or Disease) because if you die while already dead (like Vegeta or Hearts), you just don't exist anymore.That's just Dragon ball verse mechanics.
Enma-sama gives dead mortals a physical to body to be able to interact with the living world.
However, in the verse, if your physical body is destroyed or you die again, it seems your soul vanishes from existence itself.
Exactly, the halo state has such a big weakness that can't be called type 5 Imao. I agree on thatAka the halo literally gives nothing outside Immortality 1 and some resistances (like Age or Disease) because if you die while already dead (like Vegeta or Hearts), you just don't exist anymore.
This is why Hearts doesn't act like Deadpool but rather like a normal fighter in BBM.
Neither Type 7 to be honest.Exactly, the halo state has such a big weakness that can't be called type 5 Imao. I agree on that
Yeah the Halo characters aren't undead, they just revive ImaoNeither Type 7 to be honest.
It's nothing special at all.
It comes from the Draw ability which all characters cannot use.Energy/Life/Ki absorption: Where's the scans to suggest they can do this? Because I don't recall them being able to use this willy nilly.
They can accidentally destroy space-time by letting their power go loose too much so I can agree that it's just APSpace-Time Manipulation via powering up to SSJ4: So why is this labeled as space time manipulation as Goku literally says he doesn't know what impact it will have on time, plus this is heavily implied to be more of an AP feat rather than messing with space and time by warping it.
That should be changed to RE, yesReactive Evolution: This isn't reactive evolution, getting more power in response to getting hurt sounds like accelerated development as opposed to RE.
It's likely CI stuff so it should be removedProbability hax: Any scans for this? Because it doesn't really elaborate on anything, plus this could just be another CI thing where it's game mechanics or just an AOE move, which doesn't mean he warps probability to always hit ala Gurren Lagann.
Fair enoughPetrification: Turning someone into glass isn't petrifying, petrification is turning someone into stone, that's the whole point of petrification. This is just transmutation.
Good question. Although Dark Shenron did erase the Copy Universe without destroying the original one in the process so maybe that could count?Law Manipulation: So where's the statement that Shenron can rewrite laws with his wishes? Last time I checked I don't recall that being stated for Shenron in Fusion Reborn, just that he was incapable of doing anything about Janemba's shenanigans.
Doesn't seem like Paralysis to me.Paralysis: The scans are a bit too vague, plus the one with goku makes it implied the attack just knocks them out as opposed to paralysis so some clarifications on this would be nice.
AgreedEnergy Manipulation and Matter manipulation: This sounds like shapeshifting if he's turning himself into energy.
Meh, Demigra did use his Dark Ki to heal Broly after he was knocked out and defeated and healing someone is a possible use of Life Manip but either or worksLife Manipulation: Why is this being argued as life manipulation as opposed to resurrection? Using ki to revive someone like Broly is just textbook definition of resurrection.
I'm gonna have to agree with you hereResistance to Sealing and BFR: So assuming this is the scatter attack, can I ask how exactly they resist being sealed and BFR'd away when it's done via opening a portal and kicking them in? Because arguing they resist the effects of dark ki when the context for this dark ki ability is just opening a door and kicking them in isn't the same as the mind hax/corruption stuff the dark ki's always been known for.
If you agree that the copy universe was a combination of Time Power & DDR power, then wouldn't that logically just give Law & physics to anyone who has them both?Law and Physics hax: So I noticed the thread used to add these two abilities seem to skip some important context. First off the new universe was made through a combination of time power and dark demon realm, not dark ki on its own. The second argument being the demon world has more magic influence than science, this was discussed in depth but to be short, nothing about magic having more influence than science remotely means they warp the physics and law of the demon world, especially when the world already existed prior to the demon being banished there. By this logic every Harry Potter character has physics and law hax because the wizarding world has more magic influence than science.
I can agree with it just being regular type 1 & 4 if the evidence presented is not enough for a "higher degree" rating.Acausality Type 1 and 4: Not exactly a full debunk but moreso a question, why is this labeled a "higher degree" when nothing in the scans really indicate that they have higher degrees of type 1 and 4 acausality? Just normal type 1 and 4 evidence.
Fair enoughIncorporeality: This isn't incorporeal, being incorporeal implies that they naturally lack a physical body to begin with, this is just them being dead.
Nah, it's only part of its Reality Warping as it only bypassed the "copy dies, original does too", law hax is much more lol.Good question. Although Dark Shenron did erase the Copy Universe without destroying the original one in the process so maybe that could count?
You can’t use that logic Towa isn’t canon and Demigra isn’t a sorcessor in the canon it describes the living universe as a rule that abides by science and the demon realm as a place where science doesn’t have as much authority and it says it makes them polar opposites in this way your only excuse is saying non canon characters are canon to db@BestMGQScalerEver Petrification is specifically turning the target into stone. Transmutation is a more varied version of that so it's really redundant and not correct to list someone who turns others to glass as petrification when transmutation does that.
@1st_Virtue_of_Pure_Void Everything I listed in the OP is what's being removed/changed. Chaos ball is one of the more egregious examples but everything else I'm questioning the validity unless the supporters can provide more context for the abilities.
@segetero Did you read my refute to the quantum hax at all? I literally gave examples of character who have black hole creation on their page but do NOT have quantum hax because they made a black hole. You don't slap extra hax into a character for making a black hole unless you can provide evidence that they can do that. Also you don't have to post multiple times in a single response, just make one big response, it takes too much unnecessary space when you comment more than once for a response.
@Maitreya Not really, the scan for them "making the demon world" said that they were sealed away in a separate space, and in that separate space is where they build their kingdom and have it be the demon realm. It's one thing entirely if it was a void and they made everything from scratch down to its creation, but nothing in the scan implies that.
@godofice the whole "science not having much influence over magic" is another way of saying there's more wizards than scientists in the demon realm, which given the context on how Demigra, Towa, etc. are all wizards who end up becoming gods it makes sense. This is hardly different from how Harry Potter worlds are shown where the Muggle world and Wizarding world are different in where one focuses more on magic than science, but that doesn't mean everyone in the wizarding world gets physics and law hax for having more magical influence than science.
Dude, the scan is literally just saying that instead of scientists there are wizards in the demon world.You can’t use that logic Towa isn’t canon and Demigra isn’t a sorcessor in the canon it describes the living universe as a rule that abides by science and the demon realm as a place where science doesn’t have as much authority and it says it makes them polar opposites in this way your only excuse is saying non canon characters are canon to db
No it literally describes them as polar opposites after it explains that the living universe abides my science and the Demon realm magic has more authority than science if you say there’s wizards or whatever can you show me scans of canon scenes implying that? That assumption requires a lot of proof and you can’t use the games for thatDude, the scan is literally just saying that instead of scientists there are wizards in the demon world.
How is that saying that the laws of physics are replaced from magic?
Tldr it says that it has wizards (like Bibidi) instead of scientists.No it literally describes them as polar opposites after it explains that the living universe abides my science and the Demon realm magic has more authority than science
What does tldr mean also Bibidi isn’t from the demon realmTldr it says that it has wizards (like Bibidi) instead of scientists.
if you say there’s wizards or whatever can you show me scans of canon scenes implying that?
It’s referring to science when it says that I’ll literally quote it word for word and color coat it for you
The living world is split into two dimensions described as being 2 sides of a coin. The top half of the universe, overseen by the Kaio and Kaioshin, and run according to science (Or whatever passes for it in the DB world). The bottom half is the Demon Realm, where magic has more sway than science, and where the evil Makaio and Maikaioshin are gods. Despite the two dimensions being polar opposites like this |
IT LITERALLY SAYS they’re polar opposites because one abides by science and one doesn’t it couldn’t be any simpler than that
Fusion Zamasu
We all know that Fusion Zamasu is not concept AE anymore, but apparentely this dialogue is used as evidence for why Zamasu is """"concept"""".
- High-Godly
See the issue? Fu was never talking about Infinite Zamasu, but only about how Goku Black/Zamasu's ideas are way too convoluted compared to his way simpler goals.
"But but but Infinite Zamasu appeared in Xenoverse 2!!"
And I don't give a damn? Because Infinite Zamasu appears only in DLC 4 (as you can see also on the Steam page), while Fu only appears in DLC 6 (or called also Extra Pack 2) in his 1st appearance (Steam page).
So yeah, those are poorly connected things in a poor attempt at wanking again. They're not related at all, so High Godly must disappear as well.
"But but history erasure!!!!"
It's pretty ******* funny how actually no history erasure was mentioned at all, as Zamasu's death is part of history, implying that still exists too.
Not to mention that @PrinceofPein said that if people still remember a character, then their history is not fully erased, and Zamasu was remembered indeed across both canon and all the other medias.
When have they ever forgot about something which was erased from EE?Finally as for the people not remembering fully erased individuals that might be an inconsistent as the time patrol remembered the histories erased by agois
You saidWhen have they ever forgot about something which was erased from EE?
I don't talk about time paradoxes (and even that is very meh as Trunks still remembered FW1 after that Towa paradoxed them).
Exactly, people somehow remembering a character who was erased across time so they never existed is a contradiction.You said
(Not to mention that @PrinceofPein said that if people still remember a character, then their history is not fully erased, and Zamasu was remembered indeed across both canon and all the other medias.)
I’m in between college classes currently so I can’t provide the scans till later
Oke then, however, the resistance to BFR, is also resist Dark Ki which through victim across time, not just the scatter attackResistance to Sealing and BFR: So assuming this is the scatter attack, can I ask how exactly they resist being sealed and BFR'd away when it's done via opening a portal and kicking them in? Because arguing they resist the effects of dark ki when the context for this dark ki ability is just opening a door and kicking them in isn't the same as the mind hax/corruption stuff the dark ki's always been known for.
it is Duplication thenWeapon Creation and Duplication: Which one is it? Either it makes numerous weapons or it duplicates itself, you can't have both.
Huh, i it is different scan??, Dormaint key don't have it. Anyway the reason i place it is because its abilities got boosted, but remove it is fineEnhanced Power Null and Purification: Why is the same scan being used for both Dormant and Awakened key? Especially when we have scans in the Dormant tabber that shows it working on Mechi, so why is this being argued as better power null and purification?
Oke, fair then, but it still pass through Chronoa body without harming her, and Trunks directly sliced her so Intangibility should stayIncorporeal and Intangibility: Same as the demon physiology one, if there's nothing to imply the keysword lacked a physical form in the first place why would it have incorporeal in the first place? Also is there like anything that implies it turned into energy beyond the visuals because it glowing doesn't really tell me anything.
oke fairEmpowerment: This ability is for characters who get boosts based on what they're aligned for, the keysword being effective against demonic powers doesn't really mean empowerment unless lex luthor using kryptonite somehow means he's empowered.
I actually prepare to remove it so it is fine anywayResisting Status effects and Devilmite beam: So ignoring how this is a literal sword so unless you can actually target weapons with status effects or there's proof that the keysword lets people not be affected by this, why the hell does it resist the Devilmite beam when it literally has no malice due to being an inanimate object? Plus the scans do not show anything that implies the characters can resist it, just that it's in the game and can take out anyone that's hit by it. So unless the keysword itself is stated to repel the effects of the devilmite beam or anything that implies resistance, this should go. This also applies to everyone else in the verse that resists the devilmite beam for the same reason.
This entire thing made me wonder just how unmodered the DBH/XV pages are.
Stuff on Demon Physiology
Issue issue issue... These two things contradict each other and Demons explicitly never regenerated from Mechi's crap. For one, Trunks and co were rescued from Mechi's black hole without physical arm. Second, Mechi never destroyed said timelines, only absorbed them. And the Timelines were simply taken from Mechi's body from TokiToki. So unless you think that Timelines have Low Godly regen, you know that's dumb.
- Incorporeality: Can exist and act purely as a soul
- Immortality (Types 3 & 4) & Regeneration (Low-Godly; overtime): Demons can resurrect themselves, even after their body is completely destroyed, can even exist purely as soul and then later reform their physical body. However the timeframe is unknown
So overtime Low Godly and Immortality 3 issa ******* no-no. It shouldn't even be Regeneration to begin with.
This is another ******* proof on how DB fans can't interpret anything outside for highballing. The scan only says that demons use magic and not science, not that magic is used instead of laws of physics or whatever nonsense lmao.
- Acausality Type 4
This scan says instead that the living universe is only based on ours, so it's not evidence for anything.
Being separated from the flow of time maybe is still Type 4 Acausality given that Lavos, Exdeath and others for being in similar realms, but I am unsure lol.
Fusion Zamasu
We all know that Fusion Zamasu is not concept AE anymore, but apparentely this dialogue is used as evidence for why Zamasu is """"concept"""".
- High-Godly
See the issue? Fu was never talking about Infinite Zamasu, but only about how Goku Black/Zamasu's ideas are way too convoluted compared to his way simpler goals.
"But but but Infinite Zamasu appeared in Xenoverse 2!!"
And I don't give a damn? Because Infinite Zamasu appears only in DLC 4 (as you can see also on the Steam page), while Fu only appears in DLC 6 (or called also Extra Pack 2) in his 1st appearance (Steam page).
So yeah, those are poorly connected things in a poor attempt at wanking again. They're not related at all, so High Godly must disappear as well.
"But but history erasure!!!!"
It's pretty ******* funny how actually no history erasure was mentioned at all, as Zamasu's death is part of history, implying that still exists too.
Not to mention that @PrinceofPein said that if people still remember a character, then their history is not fully erased, and Zamasu was remembered indeed across both canon and all the other medias.
Stuff on Time Power
There's something very weird with this...
- Immortality (Types 1, 3, 4 & 8) & Regeneration (Low-Godly, possibly High-Godly) Negation
As the power is shown to be able to nullify Dark Shenron's wishes, it can possibly nullify the powers of the other Eternal Dragons, like Super Shenron (SDBH)'s power that granted regeneration-type immortality upon Fusion Zamasu (SDBH), allowing Zamasu to return even after Zeno erasing him as Infinite Zamasu - the abstract ideas of order and justice of the universe, along with the timeline
Where are the scans of that? Because I can allow a "possibly Mid Godly negation" but without scans that should go as well.
And that's all ig.
Agree with anything @Theglassman12 said btw.
It shouldn't be any ability at all.Type 5 Immortality: Yeah none of the scans remotely imply that they're unbound by conventional life and death, especially when we have Frieza say that they're already dead and erasing their souls means they stay dead. This is at best Type 7 immortality.
I don't recall atm of the Keysword having absorbtion and the scan in question does not qualify for it, so I'm fine with removing it for now until more proper proof is found.Ki/Energy/Life Absorption: Ignoring how the scan is only in japanese with no translation of what it says, the game itself implies they just lose stamina by just fighting and taking damage, not that they have it absorbed from them. Unless there's some explicit statements that the keysword can absorb all 3 of these things I don't see why this should be on the page.
It's prob just light manip, yesHoly Manipulation: None of the scans remotely mentions its holy in nature, just that it can fight off the demonic powers.
Bruh......yeah, that should be moved to the Awakened keyResistance to all Demonic Abilities: So why is this in the Dormant Key tabber when the scan being shown literally has the awakened keysword in display? Doesn't look right to me.
I'm inclined to agree with thisResistance to Holy and Light: Why would this grant resistance to both of these abilities? There's no statements that it's able to resist its light powers, plus no mention of holy powers whatsoever.
Then just make scans about that? I know that Hearts was in Hell btw.@StrymULTRA Quick response to the dead immortality. The problem with this is that in GT, villains like Nappa who escaped from Hell and got killed again were later seen back in Hell just fine. Going by that, those in Hell don't really seem to have the issue you brought up
I'll respond to the rest later
I explained the dark demon realm stuff plus the scan you sent “disproving” the copy universe shows that only dark ki is needed for the creation of the universe and all time bird does is speed it up so it can be made with only dark ki it just takes longer the only validation you have for removing this stuff is removing all the context and going nah this doesn’t qualify@Dagoth_OwO Demigra showing up and everything getting ****** over by his power doesn’t mean chaos manipulation, plus saying “what a disastrous force” doesn’t mean you’re warping literal chaos. To get chaos manipulation you’re gonna need something more explicit than this.
Not really sure about the Dark Shenron copy universe wish tbh. I can see EE and just more reality but idk if that gives law hax by default.
yeah, my stances haven’t changed with the last time I questioned it, characters with both time power and Dark Demon Realm powers I’m fine with having the copy universe law stuff. I disagree with the individual ki powers having these abilities, as it’s the same as giving only time power or only dark ki all of the chaos ball abilities.
You can tie someone up without "paralyzing" them, you know. Do real life humans have paralysis inducement because we can use ropes or handcuffs to restrain people?Paralysis Inducement: i remember restrain someone and make them unable to act is also paralysis???, if not then what that kind of thing fall under????
Because it doesn't induce any special effect to restrain the target.Paralysis Inducement: i remember restrain someone and make them unable to act is also paralysis???, if not then what that kind of thing fall under????
That’s not the point I was referring to about talking about on discord it was this point
the context refers to them as polar opposites because one abides by science and one doesn’t and even refers to it as 2 sides of a coin for that reason the context fully gives the explanation right there it’s polar opposites for that reason as stated in the scan you guys are bringing up other stuff when the context is fully there highlighted in color which is why I wanted to talk about this on discordIt’s referring to science when it says that I’ll literally quote it word for word and color coat it for you
The living world is split into two dimensions described as being 2 sides of a coin. The top half of the universe, overseen by the Kaio and Kaioshin, and run according to science (Or whatever passes for it in the DB world). The bottom half is the Demon Realm, where magic has more sway than science, and where the evil Makaio and Maikaioshin are gods. Despite the two dimensions being polar opposites like this |
IT LITERALLY SAYS they’re polar opposites because one abides by science and one doesn’t it couldn’t be any simpler than that
It does it compares the top half and bottom half to 2 sides of a coin and then it explains that the top half abides by science while the bottom half authority doesn’t have as much evidence and after it says that it says Despite being Polar Opposites like this it’s literally saying it’s polar opposites regarding how science works in one half and the other half so it refers to them as being polar opposites regarding to science@godofice can you stop with the colored text? It makes it really hard to see what you’re typing when it’s in dark mode.
Also your whole opposite coin scan doesn’t really explain anything with the laws and physics being fundamentally different, let alone the dark ki being what made the entire realm from nothingness.
No it doesn’t, it doesn’t say the time bird power accelerates it, it just said both combined can make a universe happen, which normally wouldn’t happen that fast.