Dragon Ball GT is HEAVILY Downplayed

[UltraExcalibur14]

Otherworld is considered to be a Universe Sized Dimension in Dragon Ball. SSJ3 Goku shook that entire realm. Both Fusion Reborn and the Z Anime are Canon to GT. General Rildo is Stronger than Buu (regardless of whether it's Super Buu or Kid Buu doesn't matter) and Base Goku absolutely Dominated him. This means Base GT Goku is Universal.

However this also means that SSJ God Goku would likely be upscaled to Low Multiversal. I did the math and SSJ4 Goku is initially 204,800x Base. In order to Tank Attacks you need to be 2x your Opponent (basically confirmed in the Daizenshuu). Baby in his Regular SSJ Form (which was confirmed to be his First White Hair form in the GT Perfect Files) tanked SSJ3 Goku and got 8x Stronger than that with his next two forms (his 3rd form being SSJ3 as confirmed in the GT Perfect Files). That means 16x Gap bare Minimum between SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Baby (when SSJ3 Baby fought SSJ3 Goku the second time in the Japanese Dub he stated Goku's Power did not change from their last fight). Golden Oozaru Goku is Bare Minimum 32x SSJ3 due to tanking blasts from SSJ3 Baby and then Baby goes Golden Oozaru. Let's say the Bruce Waves do not increase Baby's Base Power. That's still a 16x Increase that Goku would need in his Initial SSJ4 Transformation to match Golden Oozaru Baby.

Bare Minimum Golden Oozaru Multiplier: 12,800x Base

Bare Minimum (initial) SSJ4 Multiplier: 204,800x Base

Not to mention all the Boots Goku gets after that as well as Perfected SSJ4 Tanking Golden Oozaru Baby's Super Galick Gun.

GT verse is Heavily Downplayed and I don't think they're really all that far from their Super counterparts up until the Zamasu/Tournament of Power Arcs... Unless the Gap between Universal and Low Multiversal is way more than I can imagine.

 

[TyranoDoom30]

Outside of the topic of Fusion Reborn being canon to GT, that feat is only 3-C+ as shaking an universe isn't 3-A depending on context and Goku doesn't destroy it. Also, to be Low Multiversal, you have to destroy the space comparable to one between two or more space-times, scaling far above an universal feat (and a 3-D one at that) is never going to be Low Multiversal.

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

Outside of the topic of Fusion Reborn being canon to GT, that feat is only 3-C+ as shaking an universe isn't 3-A depending on context and Goku doesn't destroy it. Also, to be Low Multiversal, you have to destroy the space comparable to one between two or more space-times, scaling far above an universal feat (and a 3-D one at that) is never going to be Low Multiversal.

I guess if I powered up and a the energy I put out was so strong that the car couldn't handle it and was blown away I guess that doesn't make me car level...

Goku's SSJG Transformation literally went outside the realms of that Universe and went into the otherworld as well as the Kaioshin Realm.

 

[Frey6678]

Otherworld is considered to be a Universe Sized Dimension in Dragon Ball. SSJ3 Goku shook that entire realm. Both Fusion Reborn and the Z Anime are Canon to GT. General Rildo is Stronger than Buu (regardless of whether it's Super Buu or Kid Buu doesn't matter) and Base Goku absolutely Dominated him. This means Base GT Goku is Universal.

However this also means that SSJ God Goku would likely be upscaled to Low Multiversal. I did the math and SSJ4 Goku is initially 204,800x Base. In order to Tank Attacks you need to be 2x your Opponent (basically confirmed in the Daizenshuu). Baby in his Regular SSJ Form (which was confirmed to be his First White Hair form in the GT Perfect Files) tanked SSJ3 Goku and got 8x Stronger than that with his next two forms (his 3rd form being SSJ3 as confirmed in the GT Perfect Files). That means 16x Gap bare Minimum between SSJ3 Goku and SSJ3 Baby (when SSJ3 Baby fought SSJ3 Goku the second time in the Japanese Dub he stated Goku's Power did not change from their last fight). Golden Oozaru Goku is Bare Minimum 32x SSJ3 due to tanking blasts from SSJ3 Baby and then Baby goes Golden Oozaru. Let's say the Bruce Waves do not increase Baby's Base Power. That's still a 16x Increase that Goku would need in his Initial SSJ4 Transformation to match Golden Oozaru Baby.

Bare Minimum Golden Oozaru Multiplier: 12,800x Base

Bare Minimum (initial) SSJ4 Multiplier: 204,800x Base

Not to mention all the Boots Goku gets after that as well as Perfected SSJ4 Tanking Golden Oozaru Baby's Super Galick Gun.

GT verse is Heavily Downplayed and I don't think they're really all that far from their Super counterparts up until the Zamasu/Tournament of Power Arcs... Unless the Gap between Universal and Low Multiversal is way more than I can imagine.

Shaking a universe isn’t universal

 

[Frey6678]

I guess if I powered up and a the energy I put out was so strong that the car couldn't handle it and was blown away I guess that doesn't make me car level...

Goku's SSJG Transformation literally went outside the realms of that Universe and went into the otherworld as well as the Kaioshin Realm.

Why are you comparing a car, which can be destroyed via fragmentization, to a universe, which is so vast that in order to quantify universal destruction inverse square law and GBE must be used?

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

Why are you comparing a car, which can be destroyed via fragmentization, to a universe, which is so vast that in order to quantify universal destruction inverse square law and GBE must be used?

I see Shaking a Universe just via powering up to be so strong that the Universe can hardly handle your Power. I don't see how it can be anything less. I've seen someone compare shaking a car with your hands to shaking the Universe in order to Downplay that type of feat but shaking something via Powering Up should be way stronger than Shaking Something with your Hands.

 

[Frey6678]

I see Shaking a Universe just via powering up to be so strong that the Universe can hardly handle your Power.

that’s your headcanon though
By actual calculations universe shaking is no where near universal

I don't see how it can be anything less. I've seen someone compare shaking a car with your hands to shaking the Universe but shaking something via Powering Up should be way stronger than Shaking Something with your Hands.

which is a terrible comparison
The reason universal is so far above universe shaking is because of inverse square law
An explosion starting from center of the universe must be powerful enough to reach to the edge of the universe and destroy even neutron stars at the edges, neutron stars have insane GBE
It’s not comparable to a car

 

[ActuallySpaceMan42]

I see Shaking a Universe just via powering up to be so strong that the Universe can hardly handle your Power. I don't see how it can be anything less. I've seen someone compare shaking a car with your hands to shaking the Universe in order to Downplay that type of feat but shaking something via Powering Up should be way stronger than Shaking Something with your Hands.

How you feel is not how physics work.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Fusion Reborn isn't currently accepted as part of the GT canon, although it won't matter too much after the Buu stuff gets accepted

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

that’s your headcanon though
By actual calculations universe shaking is no where near universal

which is a terrible comparison
The reason universal is so far above universe shaking is because of inverse square law
An explosion starting from center of the universe must be powerful enough to reach to the edge of the universe and destroy even neutron stars at the edges, neutron stars have insane GBE
It’s not comparable to a car

My simple mind has no idea what any of that stuff means so we'll just say Base GT Goku is Galaxy Level and SSJG Goku is Universe Level. Still the Gap isn't as far as a lot of the fanbase tries to make it out as being.

 

[Chariot190]

I see Shaking a Universe just via powering up to be so strong that the Universe can hardly handle your Power.

That, or you're shaking a universe.
To use your car example, would shaking a car make you strong enough to destroy a car? Of course not, **** I can shake a car, but can I destroy one? Obviously not.

Shaking the observable universe is mathematically only 4-A to 3-C. It wouldn't be 3-A unless the shaking was so extreme it literally destroyed everything within the universe.

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

Fusion Reborn isn't currently accepted as part of the GT canon, although it won't matter too much after the Buu stuff gets accepted

Cooler's Revenge, Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon are all Canon to GT. Otherwise how does that explain Vegeta knowing Fusion Dance or Goku knowing the Golden Dragon Fist?

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

That, or you're shaking a universe.
To use your car example, would shaking a car make you strong enough to destroy a car? Of course not, **** I can shake a car, but can I destroy one? Obviously not.

Shaking the observable universe is mathematically only 4-A to 3-C. It wouldn't be 3-A unless the shaking was so extreme it literally destroyed everything within the universe.

THAT RIGHT THERE IS THE EXACT ARGUMENT I'VE SEEN BROUGHT UP! I want to see you Power Up and see if the sheer power that comes out of you is enough to move a car. Not using your hands.

 

[Flashlight237]

Dude, Other World was explicitly shown multiple times to be contained within the universe: https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Multiverse

What are you going on about, mate?

Also, I'm pretty sure you just made up those multipliers. The only official multipliers are the Kaio-ken (multiplier depends on the number shouted out), Oozaru (10x), Super Saiyan (50x), and forms 2 and 3 (2x Super Saiyan for SSJ2, 4x SSJ2 for SSJ3).

Side note, VBW treats the universe-multiverse gap as infinite unlike other Vs-debating entities, who treats the gap as finite. There is a theoretical FINITE multiversal gap in there, but DO NOT EVEN GET ME STARTED ON THAT, MAN! IT'S BANANAS!: https://prnt.sc/y4qU5WqnfRlW (from this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orders_of_magnitude_(length) )

 

[Frey6678]

My simple mind has no idea what any of that stuff means so we'll just say Base GT Goku is Galaxy Level and SSJG Goku is Universe Level. Still the Gap isn't as far as a lot of the fanbase tries to make it out as being.

the gap between galaxy level and universal is 268281100000000000000000000x
However the reason gt goku is universal here is because of scaling to omega shenron who can destroy the universe

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

Dude, Other World was explicitly shown multiple times to be contained within the universe: https://dragonball.fandom.com/wiki/Multiverse

What are you going on about, mate?

Also, I'm pretty sure you just made up those multipliers. The only official multipliers are the Kaio-ken (multiplier depends on the number shouted out), Oozaru (10x), Super Saiyan (50x), and forms 2 and 3 (2x Super Saiyan for SSJ2, 4x SSJ2 for SSJ3)

Contained within the Dragon Ball Universe while also being explicitly stated to be a Universe Sized Dimension as stated in the Daizenshuu. The SAME Daizenshuu where you get your SSJ Multipliers from. The SAME Daizenshuu that claims you need to emit 2x your Opponent's Energy to Cancel Out Attacks. This should all be common knowledge by now.

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

the gap between galaxy level and universal is 268281100000000000000000000x
However the reason gt goku is universal here is because of scaling to omega shenron who can destroy the universe

Not exactly sure about the Omega Shenron feat tbh. It's debatable as to how his negative energy works but the fact that him just merely existing was enough to end the Entire Universe is Frightening.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

Cooler's Revenge, Fusion Reborn and Wrath of the Dragon are all Canon to GT. Otherwise how does that explain Vegeta knowing Fusion Dance or Goku knowing the Golden Dragon Fist?

Dead Zone, Cooler's Revenge, and Wrath of the Dragon are accepted as canon to GT, but Fusion Reborn isn't due to the glaring and significant discrepancies that completely break the continuity

As for how Vegeta knows the Fusion Dance, an argument that can be made by claiming that Vegeta learned of the fusion while he was in hell using this:

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

Dead Zone, Cooler's Revenge, and Wrath of the Dragon are accepted as canon to GT, but Fusion Reborn isn't due to the glaring and significant discrepancies that completely break the continuity

As for how Vegeta knows the Fusion Dance, an argument that can be made by claiming that Vegeta learned of the fusion while he was in hell using this:

Yes, he saw it, but never actually did it himself. That third slide you sent kinda supports my point here. It takes a lot of practice to master the form as shown for both Goten and Trunks earlier in the Arc as well as Goku and Vegeta in Fusion Reborn. Vegeta still needs to Practice it in Fusion Reborn despite having seen it earlier in the Buu Saga from Otherworld (just as Goten and Trunks still needed to Practice it as well). They nail it first try in GT and Vegeta is even the one to suggest they Fuse. Given how they treat everything implies they've fused as Gogeta before.

Sure there are Continuity Errors but so are there between the Movies and the Rest of the Anime. Yet both of those are still Canon to GT.

 

[Frey6678]

Not exactly sure about the Omega Shenron feat tbh. It's debatable as to how his negative energy works but the fact that him just merely existing was enough to end the Entire Universe is Frightening.

But even omega shenron wouldn’t compare to DBS Goku
DBS Goku is far above his SSG self you can look at this blog which explains why Goku far surpasses his SSG self in just the fight alone
And in that fight they should be able to sense goku after he lost SSG so they sensed the strongest version of goku of that fight and despite that they called ROF arc Goku in just base the strongest he has ever been so gt is no where near DBS tier

 

[Thelastmlg]

Fusion Reborn isn't currently accepted as part of the GT canon, although it won't matter too much after the Buu stuff gets accepted

not to detail but what's that stuff

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

But even omega shenron wouldn’t compare to DBS Goku

I bet SSJ4 Gogeta could beat Manga Jiren tho

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

But even omega shenron wouldn’t compare to DBS Goku
DBS Goku is far above his SSG self you can look at this blog which explains why Goku far surpasses his SSG self in just the fight alone
And in that fight they should be able to sense goku after he lost SSG so they sensed the strongest version of goku of that fight and despite that they called ROF arc Goku in just base the strongest he has ever been so gt is no where near DBS tier

This mostly applies to the DBS Anime. DBS Manga never really had any confirmation that Goku absorbed SSJG into his Base and also in the Official Manga lineup/canon they skip past the Resurrection F arc so we have no real idea of what went down there.

 

[Chariot190]

THAT RIGHT THERE IS THE EXACT ARGUMENT I'VE SEEN BROUGHT UP! I want to see you Power Up and see if the sheer power that comes out of you is enough to move a car. Not using your hands.

If I could power up and shake a car, that still doesn't mean I could destroy the car with a punch.
That isn't how it works, they either have a feat or don't, do you have any idea how many literal trillions of times a difference there is between shaking the universe and destroying it?

What you're arguing is tantamount to saying because someone can blow on a napkin and shake it, they can vaporize a city.

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

I bet SSJ4 Gogeta could beat Manga Jiren tho

Idk about that Zamasu and TOP get absolutely bonkers power ups in the Manga

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

If I could power up and shake a car, that still doesn't mean I could destroy the car with a punch.
That isn't how it works, they either have a feat or don't, do you have any idea how many literal trillions of times a difference there is between shaking the universe and destroying it?

What you're arguing is tantamount to saying because someone can blow on a napkin and shake it, they can vaporize a city.

If your Spiritual Energy is So Strong that it's able to shake and moves cars because of how strong it is, I'm pretty sure you won't be able to destroy a Car.

I already know about the whatever it's called theory and why the Fusion Reborn Feat isn't Universal but the Logic you're using with the Car is still abysmal.

 

[Frey6678]

I don’t see the point in continuing this thread when shaking the universe was already addressed to not being universal
Here is the energy to shake a standard universe
The rest of the thread relies on the shaking and random multipliers this won’t really pass or change any character tiers

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

I don’t see the point in continuing this thread when shaking the universe was already addressed to not being universal
Here is the energy to shake a standard universe
The rest of the thread relies on the shaking and random multipliers this won’t really pass or change any character tiers

I don't see why we can't continue the thread? That's only one part of the whole thread which I already understand is Galaxy Level. I'm just telling him why the car argument is a Terrible.

Also the Multipliers I have Given have been Confirmed in the Daizenshuu or Lowballed to the Absolute Bare Minimum.

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

not to detail but what's that stuff

Unbeknownst to no one, Buu has better showings than 4-A

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

not to detail but what's that stuff

Might be the Buuhan Feat in the Z Anime. Didn't even know that hadn't been accepted yet... Shouldn't have taken this long tbh.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Might be the Buuhan Feat in the Z Anime. Didn't even know that hadn't been accepted yet... Shouldn't have taken this long tbh.

doubt the chain reaction feat is getting used for AP unless there are new arguments

 

[Frey6678]

I don't see why we can't continue the thread? That's only one part of the whole thread which I already understand is Galaxy Level. I'm just telling him why the car argument is a Terrible.

Also the Multipliers I have Given have been Confirmed in the Daizenshuu or Lowballed to the Absolute Bare Minimum.

With the multipliers alone it would just be multi galaxy level so nothing changes in the profiles for characters who upscale
The reason gt is universal is cause of omega shenron
Yeah there is no point to this thread should be locked

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

doubt the chain reaction feat is getting used for AP unless there are new arguments

Hmm...

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

With the multipliers alone it would just be multi galaxy level so nothing changes in the profiles for characters who upscale
The reason gt is universal is cause of omega shenron
Yeah there is no point to this thread should be locked

I mean... I can't think of anything else to add... Might as well lock it I guess...

 

[Thelastmlg]

Unbeknownst to no one, Buu has better showings than 4-A

i forgot they lost the 3-C tbh, does it have to do with warping the multi-galactic kai planet?

 

[Adem_Warlock69]

i forgot they lost the 3-C tbh, does it have to do with warping the multi-galactic kai planet?

Does the Kaioshin planet have an established size?

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

A lot of issues here; for one as others have said. Simply shaking the universe isn't 3-A, and it was calculated at 3-C+ even given the size of the Afterlife into account. Also, we don't really assume transformation multipliers work like that.

 

[UltraExcalibur14]

A lot of issues here; for one as others have said. Simply shaking the universe isn't 3-A, and it was calculated at 3-C+ even given the size of the Afterlife into account. Also, we don't really assume transformation multipliers work like that.

Someone already said that.

Also those are the Lowest Multipliers possible. Anything lower doesn't make sense unless you just completely ignore the fact you need to be 2x Stronger than your Opponent to Cancel out their Attacks.

Also sorry for the late reply kinda busy with something rn plus I thought the thread was already locked tbh.

 

[Thelastmlg]

Does the Kaioshin planet have an established size?

I think we accept it as being like a tenth of the universe or something, i remember the profile bringing up that the planet is the size of multiple galaxies but if it was removed despite being a feat in anime, not sure if we accept it anymore

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I think we accept it as being like a tenth of the universe or something, i remember the profile bringing up that the planet is the size of multiple galaxies but if it was removed despite being a feat in anime, not sure if we accept it anymore

Considering the fact that there’s multiple Uni sized realms in db I’d assume it’s 3-A but I could be wrong