Dragon Ball Cosmology Revision

[PrinceofPein]

but this point is being discussed in the tier 2 thread

Not anymore.

Anyway if a tier is against the standard, then that tier needs to change, we should not agree to a tier if it is against the standard and we certainly cannot give any verse a pass.

That said, I think there are different timelines in DB, but no one except zeno would scale to destruction of a timeline.
Also another proof of them not being separate spacetime is when this two Gods were going to combine their attack and it was going to destroy two universes.
From what I can tell, that attack is an explosion, if the explosion can engulf two universes they are not separated.
That said aside zeno everyone is tier 3.

 

[Reiner04]

Not anymore.

Anyway if a tier is against the standard, then that tier needs to change, we should not agree to a tier if it is against the standard and we certainly cannot give any verse a pass.

That said, I think there are different timelines in DB, but no one except zeno would scale to destruction of a timeline.
Also another proof of them not being separate spacetime is when this two Gods were going to combine their attack and it was going to destroy two universes.
From what I can tell, that attack is an explosion, if the explosion can engulf two universes they are not separated.
That said aside zeno everyone is tier 3.

Everyone aside from zeno upscales from infinite Zamasu who is Low 2C for merging with timeline.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Not anymore.

Anyway if a tier is against the standard, then that tier needs to change, we should not agree to a tier if it is against the standard and we certainly cannot give any verse a pass.

That said, I think there are different timelines in DB, but no one except zeno would scale to destruction of a timeline.
Also another proof of them not being separate spacetime is when this two Gods were going to combine their attack and it was going to destroy two universes.
From what I can tell, that attack is an explosion, if the explosion can engulf two universes they are not separated.
That said aside zeno everyone is tier 3.

Gods can affect space-time, this is not an argument for the Universes to have the same space-time, read all my comments, you will notice that it is wrong the Universes do have space-time separated

 

[Aachintya31]

Gods can affect space-time, this is not an argument for the Universes to have the same space-time, read all my comments, you will notice that it is wrong the Universes do have space-time separated

This was later proven wrong.

 

[Reiner04]

Gods can affect space-time, this is not an argument for the Universes to have the same space-time, read all my comments, you will notice that it is wrong the Universes do have space-time separated

He mean that changing future. The context was if he destroy Zamasu, future will be restored and thus talking about effects on spacetime.

 

[Reiner04]

Also, Tier 2 revision proceeding in a sad way. There won't be different spacetime continuums to talk prolly in future but les wait regardless

 

[PrinceofPein]

Also, Tier 2 revision proceeding in a sad way. There won't be different spacetime continuums to talk prolly in future but les wait regardless

I mean what questions do you have again, you can ask them cause I think the space-time continuums aspect has been resolved

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

This was later proven wrong.

Zamasu and Goku Black had time rings, unaffected by Type 1 Acausality

Just look at Zamasu and Goku Black's profile

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goku_Black_(DBS_Anime)

I'm starting to doubt your knowledge about DB, it seems you haven't seen the work, now it's more than clear, you don't have knowledge about the work and you're nerfing the verse based on joke arguments

So it's not a counterargument, since they had time rings, explained directly in the anime and manga, he can't be affected by past changes because of the time ring.



Therefore, beerus can indeed affect space-time, but if the character has the time ring, this is useless

Next for me to refute!

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

He mean that changing future. The context was if he destroy Zamasu, future will be restored and thus talking about effects on spacetime.

clearly he is talking about spacetime

One more refuted, next

 

[Reiner04]

I mean what questions do you have again, you can ask them cause I think the space-time continuums aspect has been resolved

I am pretty much neutral regarding whole high 3A multiverse but in the end, I'll go with what has been accepted which seems to be Pointing towards universes being 3A in dragonball.

 

[Reiner04]

clearly he is talking about spacetime

One more refuted, next

You don't have to, I am irrefutable.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

You don't have to, I am irrefutable.

know

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

And this is why the discussion about the universes in DBS is terrifying

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

And this is why the discussion about the universes in DBS is terrifying

Got an opinion to say bro?

 

[Dagoth_OwO]

Got an opinion to say bro?

Not really, no

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

Not really, no

being a fan of DB in the middle of 2023 is being complicated.

 

[Reiner04]

I can't believe this is a staff discussion and any different than some random CRT.

 

[LuffyRuffy46307]

I can't believe this is a staff discussion and any different than some random CRT.

I noticed that this is happening in several places, vsbttles seems to be slowly dying, practically nobody, before it was full of people

 

[TheGodOfICE777]

I don't feel like writing giant posts just to address a bunch of things already countered numerous times by Executor, Luffy, ect. But the "Warp" ability is dimensional travel at Massively FTL+ speed, but it's still dimensional travel. They don't need to be teleporting or entering portals, it's just they can fly in a pattern that crosses a 4th spatial dimension; which some technically call the 5th dimension but I usually prefer to number spatial dimensions and temporal dimensions separately. But it allows him to fly to different bodies of spaces.

Luffy already brought up the "Universes having different histories" thing and Executor has a scan for different universes being different bodies of spaces. So I accept those as U7 and U6 being different space-time continuums. Thus the timeline as 2-C sized.

RoSaT stuff have no evidence period; everything points to it being closer U7's living universe than it does any of the other 11 universes. And there's 0 reason for Buu's or SSJ3 Gotenks' range to be above Beerus' as he doesn't have the power. As would Dende's range be above Beerus, Whis, or the Kaioshin as he was able to recreate the RoSaT after Vegeta destroyed it. Destroying the RoSaT also destroyed the building on the Lookout.

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting "Higher dimension", no one is saying anything about Low 1-C stuff nor does it need to be traveling between higher dimension to be dimensional travel. The proposal is merely 2-C.

As for other stuff or saying U7 is 2-C sized and by extension the rest of the timeline is even bigger levels of 2-C? I'm not sure; I don't think using Toei Anime exclusive statement to call that 2-C sized is the best idea. As for the "Demon World/Universe" in the original manga. That actually is interesting; I heard it is not the same as Hell/HFIL, but if it's another "Universe" that is also included in U7, I'm not sure if that is evidence for 2-C though.

Overall, I'm unsure but think it's best to keep the respective tiers where they currently are.

I think Omegas trying to argue that it’s outside of the tienline entirely even though guides say its a subspace since if the RoSaT is within the timeline or macrocosm it means that alternate space times can be encompassed by space times therefore all universes are low 2-C by default

 

[Omegabronic]

the suspace part is talking about the universe, it is saying that it is part of the universe as a subspace, which is contradicted later on as showed in the last thread

 

[Omegabronic]

Zamasu and Goku Black had time rings, unaffected by Type 1 Acausality

Just look at Zamasu and Goku Black's profile

https://vsbattles.fandom.com/wiki/Goku_Black_(DBS_Anime)

I'm starting to doubt your knowledge about DB, it seems you haven't seen the work, now it's more than clear, you don't have knowledge about the work and you're nerfing the verse based on joke arguments

So it's not a counterargument, since they had time rings, explained directly in the anime and manga, he can't be affected by past changes because of the time ring.



Therefore, beerus can indeed affect space-time, but if the character has the time ring, this is useless

Next for me to refute!

this is not related to the ap, this is beerus changing the past and affecting the future, this is he saying that if a god kill another the future will be affected, this is not related to ap in the slightest, also can you stop to childish accusations? it is not helping

 

[Antvasima]

I don't feel like writing giant posts just to address a bunch of things already countered numerous times by Executor, Luffy, ect. But the "Warp" ability is dimensional travel at Massively FTL+ speed, but it's still dimensional travel. They don't need to be teleporting or entering portals, it's just they can fly in a pattern that crosses a 4th spatial dimension; which some technically call the 5th dimension but I usually prefer to number spatial dimensions and temporal dimensions separately. But it allows him to fly to different bodies of spaces.

Luffy already brought up the "Universes having different histories" thing and Executor has a scan for different universes being different bodies of spaces. So I accept those as U7 and U6 being different space-time continuums. Thus the timeline as 2-C sized.

RoSaT stuff have no evidence period; everything points to it being closer U7's living universe than it does any of the other 11 universes. And there's 0 reason for Buu's or SSJ3 Gotenks' range to be above Beerus' as he doesn't have the power. As would Dende's range be above Beerus, Whis, or the Kaioshin as he was able to recreate the RoSaT after Vegeta destroyed it. Destroying the RoSaT also destroyed the building on the Lookout.

Also, I'm not sure where people are getting "Higher dimension", no one is saying anything about Low 1-C stuff nor does it need to be traveling between higher dimension to be dimensional travel. The proposal is merely 2-C.

As for other stuff or saying U7 is 2-C sized and by extension the rest of the timeline is even bigger levels of 2-C? I'm not sure; I don't think using Toei Anime exclusive statement to call that 2-C sized is the best idea. As for the "Demon World/Universe" in the original manga. That actually is interesting; I heard it is not the same as Hell/HFIL, but if it's another "Universe" that is also included in U7, I'm not sure if that is evidence for 2-C though.

Overall, I'm unsure but think it's best to keep the respective tiers where they currently are.

I still think that Medeus makes sense.

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

I should specify, there are 0 statements about Whis' flight being specifically 3-D flight. It's flight yes, but not regular flight/3-D flight. It may be finite speed but Warp flight is still 4-D space flight since Angels also have the unique ability where their flight can cross dimensional barriers.

 

[Omegabronic]

I should specify, there are 0 statements about Whis' flight being specifically 3-D flight. It's flight yes, but not regular flight/3-D flight. It may be finite speed but Warp flight is still 4-D space flight since Angels also have the unique ability where their flight can cross dimensional barriers.

well, even if you desconsider the whis flight point, there is still the super dragon balls which are clearly just regular flight

 

[DarkDragonMedeus]

There's 0 proof that it's only 3-D flight; plus assuming such ignores the face value evidence that Universes are different bodies of space and the face value evidence is already counter evidence proof.

 

[Omegabronic]

There's 0 proof that it's only 3-D flight;

the fact that we see them just flying normally? this is what we are vissually shown, therefore to claim otherwise needs evidence

plus assuming such ignores the face value evidence that Universes are different bodies of space and the face value evidence is already counter evidence proof.

they are different spaces, so what? i don't see the argument

 

[Vietthai96]

Anyway, i'm pretty busy for a while, kinda need to find scans, now time to come to this:

1. Now for peoples who say Whis do not dimensional travelling and just fly, we have counterargument for it as just because he fly doesn't mean it can't be dimensional travel, some already stated this kind of argument

2. The video


This video show Beerus "planet" scene, Whis directly stated if Goku and Vegeta fall off the part they will be thrown into another dimension unable to return, what was that mean, that mean Beerus's place is its own dimension, and literally Whis dimensional travelling regularly from Beerus place out and back.

Also the video shown he can teleport, which is another form of dimensional travel, so that practically mean he has another mean of travelling, he just choose what he like

3. Now go back to the ROSAT is outside of universe/macrocosm/timeline, whatever it is. For the sake of the argument i will ignore it, however we have this:


This part is RoF Saga, where Whis drag Goku and Vegeta into his staff to train, and it actually a dimension



both Vegeta and Goku stated it is like ROSAT



with different flow of time, no exit

So now i think it is enough to debunk the notion of Whis is just regular fly, and his dimension is literally space-time thus U7 is its own space-time

Edit:


The youtube video in case people can't see the imgur gif

 

[Zencha9]

If you're with the interpretation that each universe is a space time then beerus and the angels would have 4-D powers which is supported as far as im aware so it isn't really a contradiction to say that they can fly across a temporal dimension given that again their power/Ki is treated as 4-D

 

[Omegabronic]

If you're with the interpretation that each universe is a space time then beerus and the angels would have 4-D powers which is supported as far as im aware so it isn't really a contradiction to say that they can fly across a temporal dimension given that again their power/Ki is treated as 4-D

power is not the problem, crossing between space times with physical flight is impossible no matter what as per our standards

 

[Reiner04]

they are different spaces, so what? i don't see the argument

If they're different bodies of space then I think it can be serviced by a single time Dimension to be separate spacetime's.

the fact that we see them just flying normally? this is what we are vissually shown, therefore to claim otherwise needs evidence

This has been discussed various times, it's brought up and got rejected. Only point above is that they're with in same Dimension of time but it has been refuted.

How Dare you talk back to DDM. You dare make me angry.

 

[Zencha9]

power is not the problem, crossing between space times with physical flight is impossible no matter what as per our standards

That's for 3-D flight as far as I'm aware it was elaborated on in the tiering 2 requirements thread

 

[Antvasima]

power is not the problem, crossing between space times with physical flight is impossible no matter what as per our standards

I do not think that it is, as long as the movement is along an extra dimension. DontTalk even seemed to confirm that in the connected revision thread.

 

[Antvasima]

That's for 3-D flight as far as I'm aware it was elaborated on in the tiering 2 requirements thread

Yes.

 

[Reiner04]

Now for peoples who say Whis do not dimensional travelling and just fly, we have counterargument for it as just because he fly doesn't mean it can't be dimensional travel, some already stated this kind of argument

It doesn't matter tbh. As long as it's physical flight and their normal one at that. It should pose a question.

For the other things you gave. I think we already know. Speed and teleportation is different thing.

 

[Omegabronic]

Anyway, i'm pretty busy for a while, kinda need to find scans, now time to come to this:

1. Now for peoples who say Whis do not dimensional travelling and just fly, we have counterargument for it as just because he fly doesn't mean it can't be dimensional travel, some already stated this kind of argument

well, it is dimensional travel, but since it is made via flight it is a problem to the universes being space times as per out standards

2. The video


This video show Beerus "planet" scene, Whis directly stated if Goku and Vegeta fall off the part they will be thrown into another dimension unable to return, what was that mean, that mean Beerus's place is its own dimension

no, it means that bellow that gap there is a portal to another dimension

Also the video shown he can teleport, which is another form of dimensional travel , so that practically mean he has another mean of travelling, he just choose what he like

it is not shown to be dimensional travel in the video, and he clearly uses flight to go to other universes

3. Now go back to the ROSAT is outside of universe/macrocosm/timeline, whatever it is. For the sake of the argument i will ignore it, however we have this:


This part is RoF Saga, where Whis drag Goku and Vegeta into his staff to train, and it actually a dimension



both Vegeta and Goku stated it is like ROSAT



with different flow of time, no exit

So now i think it is enough to debunk the notion of Whis is just regular fly, and his dimension is literally space-time thus U7 is its own space-time

this doesn't debunk much, all you shown is that whis can create another dimension, which isn't a space time as per our new standards, how does this mean anything for his flight is something i didn't understood

 

[Omegabronic]

That's for 3-D flight as far as I'm aware it was elaborated on in the tiering 2 requirements thread

wdym? unless you are suggesting that whis have higher dimensional immeasurable speed then i do not understand your point

If they're different bodies of space then I think it can be serviced by a single time Dimension to be separate spacetime's.

being separated spaces means that they are separated spaces, not space times

This has been discussed various times, it's brought up and got rejected. Only point above is that they're with in same Dimension of time but it has been refuted.

How Dare you talk back to DDM. You dare make me angry.

which side are you on?

 

[Reiner04]

If you're with the interpretation that each universe is a space time then beerus and the angels would have 4-D powers which is supported as far as im aware so it isn't really a contradiction to say that they can fly across a temporal dimension given that again their power/Ki is treated as 4-D

Having 4D raw power has nothing to do with SDBs, cubes as well being capable of crossing the universe and whis just normally cross Dimensions as well, like he cross planets, realms etc.

 

[Antvasima]

Moving along 4 spatial dimensions is not immeasurable speed. Immeasurable speed involves time.

 

[Zencha9]

wdym? unless you are suggesting that whis have higher dimensional immeasurable speed then i do not understand your point

Moving through spatial dimensions is not necessarily immsurable speed than got clarified in the same thread as well

 

[Reiner04]

which side are you on?

Always have been DDM side.

Moving along 4 spatial dimensions is not immeasurable speed. Immeasurable speed involves time.

While true, we do realise that how we are talking about the verse with no higher dimensional existence involved whatsoever. Cubes, SDBs are as well can cross the universe and normally at that. Whis as well just fly cross universes like he cross planets. That's never implied to be 4D movement but just his way to travel that makes him fastest in the universe.